Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

I just got off the phone with a fellow who is an official distributor
for NOAA charts.

He called to say he has recently compiled a 2 DVD set of all 3000 or so
NOAA charts, and is offering it along with a bunch of trial downloads
of various navigational software programs for $30 or $40. (That's
right, there is only one "zero").

Also available is a west coast version, with Pacific Coast, HI, AK, etc
for about half the price.

He's ending me a review copy of the west coast version in the mail.
I'll report back once I get a first hand look at it, or maybe somebody
else is among the 400 and some people who have purchased one of these
in the first few weeks of availability.

Can it be? The entire inventory of NOAA charts now available for about
what we used to pay for one or two paper charts? If so, that would be
great.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

On 23 Oct 2006 15:57:50 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

Can it be? The entire inventory of NOAA charts now available for about
what we used to pay for one or two paper charts? If so, that would be
great.

Why would you pay $30 or $40 when you can download the exact same
charts for free?

*That* (free) is about as affordable as you can get. :-)

http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/download.htm

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On 23 Oct 2006 15:57:50 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

Can it be? The entire inventory of NOAA charts now available for about
what we used to pay for one or two paper charts? If so, that would be
great.

Why would you pay $30 or $40 when you can download the exact same
charts for free?

*That* (free) is about as affordable as you can get. :-)

http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/download.htm

Because it is worth 30 bucks to have someone else download them and write
them on a DVD or two? How many hours would it take you to do it
yourself? And nothing stopping you from going into business selling
them for 25. The data is public domain, from the government, right?

del

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On 23 Oct 2006 15:57:50 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

Can it be? The entire inventory of NOAA charts now available for about
what we used to pay for one or two paper charts? If so, that would be
great.

Why would you pay $30 or $40 when you can download the exact same
charts for free?

*That* (free) is about as affordable as you can get. :-)

http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/download.htm

Because it is worth 30 bucks to have someone else download them and write
them on a DVD or two? How many hours would it take you to do it yourself?
And nothing stopping you from going into business selling them for 25.
The data is public domain, from the government, right?

del


I think for selling them you have to license them from the Feds.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:24:08 -0500, "Del Cecchi"
wrote:

Because it is worth 30 bucks to have someone else download them and write
them on a DVD or two? How many hours would it take you to do it
yourself?

If you're already sitting at the computer doing something else, it
really doesn't take all that long once you learn the process. Most
folks really only need a small sub set of the entire chart catalog.

You can download 10 or 20 charts in a matter of minutes.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

He called to say he has recently compiled a 2 DVD set

Are these stamped DVDs or just burned ones? Anyone can download and burn
their own DVDs these days. But burned DVDs are proving notoriously
unreliable. Stamped DVDs (like CDs) are far more reliable. If he's just
selling free data onto burned DVDs it's hardly worth paying anything for
them. Just download and burn 'em yourself.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

Bill Kearney wrote:
He called to say he has recently compiled a 2 DVD set

Are these stamped DVDs or just burned ones? Anyone can download and burn
their own DVDs these days. But burned DVDs are proving notoriously
unreliable. Stamped DVDs (like CDs) are far more reliable. If he's just
selling free data onto burned DVDs it's hardly worth paying anything for
them. Just download and burn 'em yourself.


Why are burned DVD's notoriously unreliable? I know there are problems
with DVD+ and DVD- and people trying to "burn" protected DVD's, but if
it is in the correct format and the orginal is not protected, why are
they having problems? I really have not had any problems with viewing
burned DVD's, is it just because I am lucky?

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Kearney wrote:
He called to say he has recently compiled a 2 DVD set

Are these stamped DVDs or just burned ones? Anyone can download and burn
their own DVDs these days. But burned DVDs are proving notoriously
unreliable. Stamped DVDs (like CDs) are far more reliable. If he's just
selling free data onto burned DVDs it's hardly worth paying anything for
them. Just download and burn 'em yourself.


Why are burned DVD's notoriously unreliable? I know there are problems
with DVD+ and DVD- and people trying to "burn" protected DVD's, but if it
is in the correct format and the orginal is not protected, why are they
having problems? I really have not had any problems with viewing burned
DVD's, is it just because I am lucky?


Burned CD's can change. The reason being the construction. The critical
part of a CD is not the clear side but the shiny side. A pressed CD has the
dimples pressed in and then the coating is applied, and the distance from
the surface to the reflective coating does not change. A burned CD,
diffuses an internal material. If heat and chemistry happen, that diffusion
can grow or change. The reason a CD works is the light source is reflected
from the shiny coating or the diffused internal area. The diffused or
dimple is 1/2 wave length in depth, so you get a cancellation of light. A
dark spot. If there is damage to the reflective surface, then bad data.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
link.net...



Burned CD's can change. The reason being the construction. The critical
part of a CD is not the clear side but the shiny side. A pressed CD has
the dimples pressed in and then the coating is applied, and the distance
from the surface to the reflective coating does not change. A burned CD,
diffuses an internal material. If heat and chemistry happen, that
diffusion can grow or change. The reason a CD works is the light source
is reflected from the shiny coating or the diffused internal area. The
diffused or dimple is 1/2 wave length in depth, so you get a cancellation
of light. A dark spot. If there is damage to the reflective surface,
then bad data.



I read at some point in time:

A burned CD has an approximate storage life of only 3 years before it can
start having data errors simply due to aging. They are not recommended for
long term storage of important documents or files.

Interestingly, magnetic media (tapes) have an estimated data storage life of
approximately 100 years.

Eisboch

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:19:40 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

I don't know - I'd be willing to pay that for a data base of all the
NOAA charts. I like maps and refer to them all the time - it would be
kind of neat to have them all in one place

I agree that the price is reasonable and having all of the charts is
nice (been there, done that). On the other hand, being able to
download them all for free is a nice concept, especially since our tax
dollars paid for them in the first place.

It always frosted my butt when I had to pay Maptech's high prices for
electronic charts when they had their sweet heart deal with the
government.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

On Oct 23, 5:18*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On 23 Oct 2006 15:57:50 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
Can it be? The entire inventory of NOAA charts now available for about
what we used to pay for one or two paper charts? *If so, that would be
great.Why would you pay $30 or $40 when you can download the exact same
charts for free?

*That* (free) is about as affordable as you can get. * :-)

http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/download.htm


I think the value is in the indexing and organizing, along with the
sampling of various electro-nav programs contained on the disc. I don't
know about you, but I'm not inclined to spend too many hours at a task
in order to save 30 bucks.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

Gene Kearns wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:19:51 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
thlink.net...



Burned CD's can change. The reason being the construction. The
critical
part of a CD is not the clear side but the shiny side. A pressed CD has
the dimples pressed in and then the coating is applied, and the distance
from the surface to the reflective coating does not change. A burned
CD,
diffuses an internal material. If heat and chemistry happen, that
diffusion can grow or change. The reason a CD works is the light source
is reflected from the shiny coating or the diffused internal area. The
diffused or dimple is 1/2 wave length in depth, so you get a
cancellation
of light. A dark spot. If there is damage to the reflective surface,
then bad data.



I read at some point in time:

A burned CD has an approximate storage life of only 3 years before it can
start having data errors simply due to aging. They are not recommended
for
long term storage of important documents or files.

Interestingly, magnetic media (tapes) have an estimated data storage life
of
approximately 100 years.

Eisboch


http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200...runc_sys.shtml


I think they are talking about commercial originals. The ones you create on
your CD or DVD burner on your computer (CD-R, DVD-RW) are the ones that have
a much shorter data storage life, according to what I read. I have some
homemade CDs that are a few years old though .... and they still work. I
think ..... (haven't used them in a while)

Eisboch

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

Eisboch wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:19:51 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
thlink.net...



Burned CD's can change. The reason being the construction. The
critical
part of a CD is not the clear side but the shiny side. A pressed CD has
the dimples pressed in and then the coating is applied, and the distance
from the surface to the reflective coating does not change. A burned
CD,
diffuses an internal material. If heat and chemistry happen, that
diffusion can grow or change. The reason a CD works is the light source
is reflected from the shiny coating or the diffused internal area. The
diffused or dimple is 1/2 wave length in depth, so you get a
cancellation
of light. A dark spot. If there is damage to the reflective surface,
then bad data.



I read at some point in time:

A burned CD has an approximate storage life of only 3 years before it can
start having data errors simply due to aging. They are not recommended
for
long term storage of important documents or files.

Interestingly, magnetic media (tapes) have an estimated data storage life
of
approximately 100 years.

Eisboch


http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200...runc_sys.shtml


I think they are talking about commercial originals. The ones you create on
your CD or DVD burner on your computer (CD-R, DVD-RW) are the ones that have
a much shorter data storage life, according to what I read. I have some
homemade CDs that are a few years old though .... and they still work. I
think ..... (haven't used them in a while)

Eisboch


Same here. I have never had a CD that I burnt fail yet, although I do
have to clean them once in a while after being handled a lot.

What theoretically is supposed to happen to the data burnt onto CD's
over time?

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

"JimH" wrote in message
oups.com...



Same here. I have never had a CD that I burnt fail yet, although I do
have to clean them once in a while after being handled a lot.

What theoretically is supposed to happen to the data burnt onto CD's
over time?


I don't know. The original music CD was simply a polycarbonate disk coated
with aluminum (done in a vacuum process called "sputtering" and then
protected with an overcoat of lacquer done in a spin process.

A CD-R differs in the respect that there is an additional layer of some type
of organic dye that reacts to the laser when writing data. I suspect that
it is the stability of the dye that has been exposed to the beam that
determines storage life.

I looked around the 'net and there are all kinds of opinions on storage life
ranging from a few years to over 100 years. Heat and humidity appears to be
the determining factors, other than physical abuse or damage.

Eisboch

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
oups.com...



Same here. I have never had a CD that I burnt fail yet, although I do
have to clean them once in a while after being handled a lot.

What theoretically is supposed to happen to the data burnt onto CD's
over time?


I don't know. The original music CD was simply a polycarbonate disk
coated with aluminum (done in a vacuum process called "sputtering" and
then protected with an overcoat of lacquer done in a spin process.

A CD-R differs in the respect that there is an additional layer of some
type of organic dye that reacts to the laser when writing data. I suspect
that it is the stability of the dye that has been exposed to the beam that
determines storage life.

I looked around the 'net and there are all kinds of opinions on storage
life ranging from a few years to over 100 years. Heat and humidity
appears to be the determining factors, other than physical abuse or
damage.

Eisboch


I don't know how old this article is, but it does list results from quality
testing of CD-R's from various manufacturers:

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware..._quality.shtml

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

Eisboch wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message
oups.com...



Same here. I have never had a CD that I burnt fail yet, although I do
have to clean them once in a while after being handled a lot.

What theoretically is supposed to happen to the data burnt onto CD's
over time?



I don't know. The original music CD was simply a polycarbonate disk coated
with aluminum (done in a vacuum process called "sputtering" and then
protected with an overcoat of lacquer done in a spin process.

A CD-R differs in the respect that there is an additional layer of some type
of organic dye that reacts to the laser when writing data. I suspect that
it is the stability of the dye that has been exposed to the beam that
determines storage life.

I looked around the 'net and there are all kinds of opinions on storage life
ranging from a few years to over 100 years. Heat and humidity appears to be
the determining factors, other than physical abuse or damage.

Eisboch




I've had a number of them deteriorate in 5-7 years, many of them were
really cheap blanks I used to backup my audio CD's and left in my car,
so in addition to being cheap they endured temperature extremes. They
weren't visually damaged but skipped more and more until they wouldn't
play. I've had other CD-Rs more than 10 years old still fine.

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

Why are burned DVD's notoriously unreliable? I know there are problems
with DVD+ and DVD- and people trying to "burn" protected DVD's, but if
it is in the correct format and the orginal is not protected, why are
they having problems? I really have not had any problems with viewing
burned DVD's, is it just because I am lucky?

Burned DVD video seems far more tolerant of errors. I've had HORRENDOUSLY
bad reliability problems with burned DVD media. This being from several
different brand discs, different burners, software, PCs and even locations.
Seems a good many discs just don't want to let you record multi-gig files
onto them. Well, they'll let you RECORD but you're screwed if you want to
read them back whole. And I'm talking about storage intervals of sometimes
less than ONE MONTH! This in a controlled temp/humidity environment. It's
bad enough that I've gone back to TAPE.

Note, I'm talking about DVDs here, not CDs. I've had better luck with CD-R
media, but they're not large enough to hold the files involved (large
..tar.bz archives of XML data)

-Bill Kearney

Affordable Charts? Finally?
 

"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
...
Why are burned DVD's notoriously unreliable? I know there are problems
with DVD+ and DVD- and people trying to "burn" protected DVD's, but if
it is in the correct format and the orginal is not protected, why are
they having problems? I really have not had any problems with viewing
burned DVD's, is it just because I am lucky?

Burned DVD video seems far more tolerant of errors. I've had HORRENDOUSLY
bad reliability problems with burned DVD media. This being from several
different brand discs, different burners, software, PCs and even
locations.
Seems a good many discs just don't want to let you record multi-gig files
onto them. Well, they'll let you RECORD but you're screwed if you want to
read them back whole. And I'm talking about storage intervals of
sometimes
less than ONE MONTH! This in a controlled temp/humidity environment.
It's
bad enough that I've gone back to TAPE.

Note, I'm talking about DVDs here, not CDs. I've had better luck with
CD-R
media, but they're not large enough to hold the files involved (large
.tar.bz archives of XML data)

-Bill Kearney


Density. The DVD format is much more dense, so any bleeding of the dyes in
the media, and you can easily be beyond the error correcting code facility.