Brian Nystrom wrote:

Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?

Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient at
the time. That's SOP in kayaks.

Then it's no advantage as previously claimed?


You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
poling is sometimes better.

Why? What's the downside of doing it all the time? I realize that it's
not traditional to do so in a canoes, but other than that, why would you
not want to?

We were trying to establish an advantage of one over the other?
You claimed an advantage for being ablt to "ruudder on both sides".
Now the advantage you claimed for steeing on both sides seems to have
disappeared.



That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
speed.

I beg to differ. Every stroke accelerates the boat and every pause
allows it to decelerate. If the boat is heavily laden, the changes may
be quite small, but particularly when paddling a light boat unladen, it
makes a difference over several hours of paddling.

I have to disagree. A canoe has more momentum.
You have a point though when thewind blows.

Gettin timed out .....


- a paddle blade is better formed to act as a rudder

We're talking about paddles, aren't we? If you mean a canoe paddle is a
better shape than a kayak paddle, that would depend on the type of
paddles you're comparing. For example, I would think that a bent-shaft
canoe paddle would make a less than ideal rudder and would be less
effective than a kayak paddle.

- the handle of a paddle has a grip at the top to facilitate twisting
the blade. Twisting the blade in the water is part of a normal canoe
stroke.

It works fine with a kayak paddle, too. It doesn't take much twist to
rudder a boat, nor does the twisting action require much effort.

- in a canoe the solo paddler sits amidships like a kayak paddler but
because a canoe is wider the paddler sits to one side where the paddle
can be dipped vertically into the water. For a solo canoe paddler, a
kayak paddle is not as efficient. The canoe is too wide amidships. A
kayak paddle with a sufficiently large blade may be more powerful, but
not more efficient.

I can see where the width of the boat could be problematic, but that can
be overcome to some degree by using a long enough paddle to easily reach
the water on both sides.

For someone who mostly uses a kayak paddle it may feel more efficient
than a canoe paddle but that's because the person is conditioned to a
kayak paddle. I've used both kinds in the small boats I built. The
shortest boat needs a kayak paddle because it does't track well. It's
like one of those short white water kayaks.

There's a difference between the inherent efficiency of the paddle
itself and the efficiency of the boat/paddle combination. The
alternating stroke of a kayak paddle reduces "dead spots" in the stroke
as well as the need for a "J" stroke or other technique for compensating
for paddling on only one side. Any time you add a ruddering component to
a stroke, it reduces the efficiency of the stroke.

I was interested in the account of using a kayak paddle when paddling
double in a canoe. Sitting in the end of the canoe would be narrow
enough to make a kayak paddle practical. I've never tried it but think
it would be interesting. There would still be the problem of the kayak
paddle not acting well as a rudder, but on a straight course it would
be interesting to try. People use bent blade paddles on straight
courses so there is a precedent.

Trust me Bill, a kayak paddle works just fine as a rudder; there are
thousands of years of precedent for that. The extra length of a kayak
paddle also allows for extended sweep strokes, which are a more
efficient means of correcting a boat's course than ruddering, as the
stroke propels the boat forward as it turns it, rather than just
creating drag as ruddering does.

In article , Kathy D'Errico wrote:

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really APPRECIATE IT! As I
canoe mainly on an open bay following the shoreline, I think I will try
the kayak paddle approach. I stopped down to a local kayak store
yesterday and tried out a kayak paddle with a canoe. It seemed to work
fine for me except that the 245cm paddle was a little short. I think a
slightly longer one would do the trick. Blakely-what size kayak paddle
is your Carlisle? As you are sitting in the stern which is narrower,
you are probably able to use a standard size kayak paddle? My problem
is that I am sitting in the midsection going solo, so that the paddle
was slightly short for the mid. Also, do you sit or kneel when using
your kayak paddle? Thank your for your "experiment".

Kathy D'Errico

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
In article , Kathy D'Errico wrote:

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really APPRECIATE IT! As I
canoe mainly on an open bay following the shoreline, I think I will try
the kayak paddle approach. I stopped down to a local kayak store
yesterday and tried out a kayak paddle with a canoe. It seemed to work
fine for me except that the 245cm paddle was a little short. I think a
slightly longer one would do the trick. Blakely-what size kayak paddle
is your Carlisle? As you are sitting in the stern which is narrower,
you are probably able to use a standard size kayak paddle? My problem
is that I am sitting in the midsection going solo, so that the paddle
was slightly short for the mid. Also, do you sit or kneel when using
your kayak paddle? Thank your for your "experiment".

Kathy D'Errico

Kathy

The Carlisle feels huge. I brought it back with me and will measure it
tomorrow and post. I will post the mid/stern dimensions of the Wenonah

for comparison as well. (These might be on their web site too).

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
In article , Kathy D'Errico wrote:

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really APPRECIATE IT! As I
canoe mainly on an open bay following the shoreline, I think I will try
the kayak paddle approach. I stopped down to a local kayak store
yesterday and tried out a kayak paddle with a canoe. It seemed to work
fine for me except that the 245cm paddle was a little short. I think a
slightly longer one would do the trick. Blakely-what size kayak paddle
is your Carlisle? As you are sitting in the stern which is narrower,
you are probably able to use a standard size kayak paddle? My problem
is that I am sitting in the midsection going solo, so that the paddle
was slightly short for the mid. Also, do you sit or kneel when using
your kayak paddle? Thank your for your "experiment".

Kathy D'Errico

Kathy:

I measured the Carlisle paddle. These are the blue shafted/yellow
bladed type that break down into a long and short segment that can be
converted to a paddles with a set of T grips.

I measured these blade end to blade end. Distance = 96 inches (244
cm). The blades themselves are 7.5 inches wide and 20.5 inches long.

The outside width of the canoe at the stern seat is 23 inches gunwale
to gunwale. Width at the yoke is 34 inches.

Sitting in the stern with the paddled held centered, I would have 11.5
inches of inboard shaft, 16.0 inches of outboard shaft and 20.5 inches
of blade on each side of the midline. Seated near the yoke, 5.5
inches of shaft would shift from the outboard segment to the inboard
segment.

The stern seat is 9 inches from the bottom of canoe at the stern. At
the yoke, the top of the gunwale is 12 inches above the bottom of the
canoe. There will be some difference in height depending on how one is
positioned at the center of the canoe, but given the dimensions,
probably not all the much.

Next time I take it out, I will try paddling it as a kayak with the
Carlisle paddle and see how that works and then compare that with my
Werner IK paddle.

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"

Be careful about transfering one's experince paddling a kayak with a
double bladed paddle to paddling a canoe with a double bladed paddle.
The canoe is not only wider and higher but there is no leg bracing.
Even if you use a longer paddle you can't put it vertically into the
water as you can in a kayak or as you can in a canoe using a single
baded paddle and by sitting over to one side. I've tried both and you
don't get the leverage in a canoe with a kayak paddle to steer very
well. There's more power going straight ahead from having the two
blades more continuously in the water, and working harder, than one
blade but that's about all you get from the kayak paddle in the canoe.
Unless you are in extreme conditions the kayak paddle would be okay. In
wind or waves I'd move more forward so the kayak paddle is pulling the
canoe instead of pushing it. You can steer better that way. The action
becomes more like a swimmer than a paddler. I used to swim a lot and
find that pretty comfortable.

Wm Watt wrote:
Be careful about transfering one's experince paddling a kayak with a
double bladed paddle to paddling a canoe with a double bladed paddle.
The canoe is not only wider and higher but there is no leg bracing.
Even if you use a longer paddle you can't put it vertically into the
water as you can in a kayak or as you can in a canoe using a single
baded paddle and by sitting over to one side. I've tried both and you
don't get the leverage in a canoe with a kayak paddle to steer very
well. There's more power going straight ahead from having the two
blades more continuously in the water, and working harder, than one
blade but that's about all you get from the kayak paddle in the canoe.
Unless you are in extreme conditions the kayak paddle would be okay. In
wind or waves I'd move more forward so the kayak paddle is pulling the
canoe instead of pushing it. You can steer better that way. The action
becomes more like a swimmer than a paddler. I used to swim a lot and
find that pretty comfortable.

I have no basis for evaluating these comments relative to a hard shell
kayak. I run both the Aire Lynx I and Lynx II inflatable kayak.
IK's
have notable differences. For the most part, there are no leg braces
and
the boats are relatively wide due to the presence of the main tubes and
one
does sit higher up - conditions more akin to a canoe.

Blakely

Wm Watt wrote:
Be careful about transfering one's experince paddling a kayak with a
double bladed paddle to paddling a canoe with a double bladed paddle.
The canoe is not only wider and higher but there is no leg bracing.
Even if you use a longer paddle you can't put it vertically into the
water as you can in a kayak or as you can in a canoe using a single
baded paddle and by sitting over to one side. I've tried both and you
don't get the leverage in a canoe with a kayak paddle to steer very
well. There's more power going straight ahead from having the two
blades more continuously in the water, and working harder, than one
blade but that's about all you get from the kayak paddle in the canoe.
Unless you are in extreme conditions the kayak paddle would be okay. In
wind or waves I'd move more forward so the kayak paddle is pulling the
canoe instead of pushing it. You can steer better that way. The action
becomes more like a swimmer than a paddler. I used to swim a lot and
find that pretty comfortable.

Sorry- I pushed post without adding my note!

Following up on William's comments-
If you all have fooled around solo in a canoe enough you will know that
weight placement is very important to steering, especially in wind
(less so in waves) . The relatively high sides of a canoe means that
the wind exerts a lot of side pressure on the canoe. If you sit in the
stern seat alone in a good wind, you will find that the bow swings
downwind really fast and it is is difficult to get the bow into the
wind. If you seat in the bow seat, the stern will oscillate but by
relatively gentle paddling, you can easily keep the bow into the wind.
If you are sitting in the bow seat facing the stern (which I always do)
you can easily change the dynamic by leaning forward on one knee (pad
recommended). In a really strong wind you might have to kneel on both
knees- this puts you in the middle of the canoe and you have good
control even in 20 knot winds.

A kayak has a much lower profile as has been pointed out but the weight
placement still holds true. Interesting notion of pulling v. pushing.
What we are really doing is moving the boat past the paddle and in
Outrigger paddling we try to stay away from a long stroke (that is
"pushing" the paddle toward the stern past the vertical or past the
hip.

Good stuff! Keep trying stuff out!

paddle hard!
Wm Watt wrote:
Be careful about transfering one's experince paddling a kayak with a
double bladed paddle to paddling a canoe with a double bladed paddle.
The canoe is not only wider and higher but there is no leg bracing.
Even if you use a longer paddle you can't put it vertically into the
water as you can in a kayak or as you can in a canoe using a single
baded paddle and by sitting over to one side. I've tried both and you
don't get the leverage in a canoe with a kayak paddle to steer very
well. There's more power going straight ahead from having the two
blades more continuously in the water, and working harder, than one
blade but that's about all you get from the kayak paddle in the canoe.
Unless you are in extreme conditions the kayak paddle would be okay. In
wind or waves I'd move more forward so the kayak paddle is pulling the
canoe instead of pushing it. You can steer better that way. The action
becomes more like a swimmer than a paddler. I used to swim a lot and
find that pretty comfortable.

"Monk Terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
Sorry- I pushed post without adding my note!

Following up on William's comments-
If you all have fooled around solo in a canoe enough you will know that
weight placement is very important to steering, especially in wind
(less so in waves) .

And jumping into the fray...

I know that the particular strokes I use with my canoe paddle have lots of
little variants that would be hard to replicate with a kayak blade. It could
be argued that they don't need to be replicated, that kayak paddles have
their own movements, but I can't imagine having the ablity to do such a
smooth 'abeam' or being able to push the boat through narrow places with a
kayak blade. In fact, the only place I can imagine a kayak paddle being even
a little competitive with a single blade is on open water, moving straight
ahead. And that is a very limited timeframe indeed.

I think thats the reason that the users of canoes for hundreds and hundreds
of years never used double-ended blades, although they were existant.

--riverman

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
I have a 16 foot hybrid canoe that I can use solo or tandem. It
really takes a lot of work paddling solo and I was wondering if
a kayak paddle would work better for me? or what would better than
the traditional lightweight paddle?

Do you sit over to one side in the middle of the canoe and kneel on the
bottom?
That's the best position for solo empty canoe paddling. If teh canoe is
full of camping gear then you can sit or kneel behing the weight of the
gear. I don't even put seats in the boats I build fro myself. I carry a
cushion (an old life jacket0 to kneel on. It's painful at first until
the muscles and ligaments or whatever get stretched but eventually you
get used to it. You have to shift position every once and a while to
keep the circulation going in the lower legs so you can stand up at the
end of the day.

After you learn to balance well you can paddle with the gunwhale
touching the surface of the water. The canoe is actually qiute stable
at that degree of heel because of the weight of the hull out of the
water counteracting further heeling. It's nto unlike riding a bicycle.
..