ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles? I know that your right arm is straight when
paddling on the right side but does the left arm start off bent as you
spear the water and then straightens out by pushing the paddle forward
as the right arm moves backwards? or are both the right and left arms
straight as you spear the water and both arms rotate together as torso
rotates.( im only talking about the stroke that occurs on right side of
boat.) thnaks for indulging me.

Also, do you use the rudder during a race. If so, how do you get a firm
foot hold when you rotate?

novice wrote:
ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles? I know that your right arm is straight when
paddling on the right side but does the left arm start off bent as you
spear the water and then straightens out by pushing the paddle forward
as the right arm moves backwards? or are both the right and left arms
straight as you spear the water and both arms rotate together as torso
rotates.( im only talking about the stroke that occurs on right side of
boat.) thnaks for indulging me.

novice wrote:
Also, do you use the rudder during a race. If so, how do you get a firm
foot hold when you rotate?


In answer to your second question, I refuse to try and move a fast kayak
without a rudder. I'm not a purist, I don't steer by shifting the
paddle, hipping the boat or paddling stronger on one side. Boats are
fastest when paddled with fairly even strokes on both sides, and a good
rudder doesn't slow you down nearly as much as clumsy steering strokes.
*Especially* in a long skinny boat made for a rudder. In addition, if
you are drafting, you'll get dropped like a bad date if you can't keep
the boat on the wave and in the right position with respect to others.
There are several things to do - if the rudder pedals are the sliding
kind (and it's not your boat) you can still use your legs for power by
not completely unloading pressure on the off-leg. Not as efficient, but
not bad. If you've got either toe-flaps or the newer twist style
pedals, it's not a problem to really pump your legs. I'm a fan of
toe-flaps, and am currently tinkering with that boat to add a footboard
across instead of just pegs. The ICF boat I'm getting next week is a
tiller style, and the Stratus has rotating pegs. All of them allow you
to power up with your legs.

Marsh Jones
Minnesota

novice wrote:
ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles? I know that your right arm is straight when
paddling on the right side but does the left arm start off bent as you
spear the water and then straightens out by pushing the paddle forward
as the right arm moves backwards? or are both the right and left arms
straight as you spear the water and both arms rotate together as torso
rotates.( im only talking about the stroke that occurs on right side of
boat.) thnaks for indulging me.

I'm still just starting to learn this fast, tippy boat stuff, but here
are a few of the things that I've learned so far from some paddlers far
better than I. This info applies best to a wing paddle, and a boat like
a CD Stratus, Epic 18, racing surf ski, or New Zealand style multisport
boat.
Google some of the videos from K1 races, Speights, Gold Rush, or any of
the South African races.
- keeping your arms straight is a great drill to encourage using your
torso muscles, but that's all - a drill.
-Starting position is with your right arm extended and the blade about
even with your toes. That means that your torso is rotated to the left
in order to get your right shoulder forward and your left arm is bent
with your hand somewhere around your left ear.
-As the blade enters the water, your torso starts to rotate a bit and
your left hand should be pushing across fairly level, and at eye level.
-Once your left hand gets to your breastbone, your left hand should
pretty much stay there and your torso rotates firmly to complete the
stroke. At the same time, your right elbow will bend naturally to lift
the paddle back up to your ear.
-There should be a slight hesitation at this point, before starting the
next stroke.

The paddle should track from very near the deck at insertion to about a
foot-18" (30-40cm) out from the hull at takeout.

You'll find that your top hand drops and cadence should increase as the
conditions deteriorate,

Marsh Jones
Minnesota

Thanks very much. I'm glad I'm allowed to bend the one arm. I have
studied video clips and it is instructional but sometimes hard to tell
exactly how bent the elbow is.

I rented a Soltice GT for 3 hrs today for $42 . I had no problem
adapting my stroke from the 10 ft kayak I train with. The only problem
was that the foot pedals were adjusted too far up and I didnt really
realize it until I got home. I couldnt move my legs right and it
through me off a bit . Plus, I was trying to keep both arms straight.

Anyway, I managed to go about 9.25 kms/hr at about 90 percent effort
for 5 kms in an ocean inlet.

I didnt use the rudder to steer because my practice kayak does not have
rudder. I have used rudders in the past and they do seem to make life
easier.

They say a wing blade can increase your efficiency by 20 percent. That
sure would be sweet if true. Again, thank you for the help!

Marsh Jones wrote:
novice wrote:
ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles? I know that your right arm is straight when
paddling on the right side but does the left arm start off bent as you
spear the water and then straightens out by pushing the paddle forward
as the right arm moves backwards? or are both the right and left arms
straight as you spear the water and both arms rotate together as torso
rotates.( im only talking about the stroke that occurs on right side of
boat.) thnaks for indulging me.

I'm still just starting to learn this fast, tippy boat stuff, but here
are a few of the things that I've learned so far from some paddlers far
better than I. This info applies best to a wing paddle, and a boat like
a CD Stratus, Epic 18, racing surf ski, or New Zealand style multisport
boat.
Google some of the videos from K1 races, Speights, Gold Rush, or any of
the South African races.
- keeping your arms straight is a great drill to encourage using your
torso muscles, but that's all - a drill.
-Starting position is with your right arm extended and the blade about
even with your toes. That means that your torso is rotated to the left
in order to get your right shoulder forward and your left arm is bent
with your hand somewhere around your left ear.
-As the blade enters the water, your torso starts to rotate a bit and
your left hand should be pushing across fairly level, and at eye level.
-Once your left hand gets to your breastbone, your left hand should
pretty much stay there and your torso rotates firmly to complete the
stroke. At the same time, your right elbow will bend naturally to lift
the paddle back up to your ear.
-There should be a slight hesitation at this point, before starting the
next stroke.

The paddle should track from very near the deck at insertion to about a
foot-18" (30-40cm) out from the hull at takeout.

You'll find that your top hand drops and cadence should increase as the
conditions deteriorate,

Marsh Jones
Minnesota

Rudders are OK and useful at times, but if you wish to become a proficient
paddler, do NOT use it to "steer" your boat. This could, and for all those
reading I did say "COULD" not would as there are always exceptions lol ( no
panties in a bunch needed ) hamper your learning curve and leave you with
alot of bad stroke habits. I'm on the water on average 150 days a years and
rarely flat water paddle anymore, but even when I do break out the old
touring boat for excersize, wouldn't even consider a rudder.



"novice" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks very much. I'm glad I'm allowed to bend the one arm. I have
studied video clips and it is instructional but sometimes hard to tell
exactly how bent the elbow is.

I rented a Soltice GT for 3 hrs today for $42 . I had no problem
adapting my stroke from the 10 ft kayak I train with. The only problem
was that the foot pedals were adjusted too far up and I didnt really
realize it until I got home. I couldnt move my legs right and it
through me off a bit . Plus, I was trying to keep both arms straight.

Anyway, I managed to go about 9.25 kms/hr at about 90 percent effort
for 5 kms in an ocean inlet.

I didnt use the rudder to steer because my practice kayak does not have
rudder. I have used rudders in the past and they do seem to make life
easier.

They say a wing blade can increase your efficiency by 20 percent. That
sure would be sweet if true. Again, thank you for the help!

Marsh Jones wrote:
novice wrote:
ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles? I know that your right arm is straight when
paddling on the right side but does the left arm start off bent as you
spear the water and then straightens out by pushing the paddle forward
as the right arm moves backwards? or are both the right and left arms
straight as you spear the water and both arms rotate together as torso
rotates.( im only talking about the stroke that occurs on right side
of
boat.) thnaks for indulging me.

I'm still just starting to learn this fast, tippy boat stuff, but here
are a few of the things that I've learned so far from some paddlers far
better than I. This info applies best to a wing paddle, and a boat like
a CD Stratus, Epic 18, racing surf ski, or New Zealand style multisport
boat.
Google some of the videos from K1 races, Speights, Gold Rush, or any of
the South African races.
- keeping your arms straight is a great drill to encourage using your
torso muscles, but that's all - a drill.
-Starting position is with your right arm extended and the blade about
even with your toes. That means that your torso is rotated to the left
in order to get your right shoulder forward and your left arm is bent
with your hand somewhere around your left ear.
-As the blade enters the water, your torso starts to rotate a bit and
your left hand should be pushing across fairly level, and at eye level.
-Once your left hand gets to your breastbone, your left hand should
pretty much stay there and your torso rotates firmly to complete the
stroke. At the same time, your right elbow will bend naturally to lift
the paddle back up to your ear.
-There should be a slight hesitation at this point, before starting the
next stroke.

The paddle should track from very near the deck at insertion to about a
foot-18" (30-40cm) out from the hull at takeout.

You'll find that your top hand drops and cadence should increase as the
conditions deteriorate,

Marsh Jones
Minnesota

Good. I dont really want to learn to use the rudder. Thanks for your
input.

Grip wrote:
Rudders are OK and useful at times, but if you wish to become a proficient
paddler, do NOT use it to "steer" your boat. This could, and for all those
reading I did say "COULD" not would as there are always exceptions lol ( no
panties in a bunch needed ) hamper your learning curve and leave you with
alot of bad stroke habits. I'm on the water on average 150 days a years and
rarely flat water paddle anymore, but even when I do break out the old
touring boat for excersize, wouldn't even consider a rudder.



"novice" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks very much. I'm glad I'm allowed to bend the one arm. I have
studied video clips and it is instructional but sometimes hard to tell
exactly how bent the elbow is.

I rented a Soltice GT for 3 hrs today for $42 . I had no problem
adapting my stroke from the 10 ft kayak I train with. The only problem
was that the foot pedals were adjusted too far up and I didnt really
realize it until I got home. I couldnt move my legs right and it
through me off a bit . Plus, I was trying to keep both arms straight.

Anyway, I managed to go about 9.25 kms/hr at about 90 percent effort
for 5 kms in an ocean inlet.

I didnt use the rudder to steer because my practice kayak does not have
rudder. I have used rudders in the past and they do seem to make life
easier.

They say a wing blade can increase your efficiency by 20 percent. That
sure would be sweet if true. Again, thank you for the help!

Marsh Jones wrote:
novice wrote:
ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles? I know that your right arm is straight when
paddling on the right side but does the left arm start off bent as you
spear the water and then straightens out by pushing the paddle forward
as the right arm moves backwards? or are both the right and left arms
straight as you spear the water and both arms rotate together as torso
rotates.( im only talking about the stroke that occurs on right side
of
boat.) thnaks for indulging me.

I'm still just starting to learn this fast, tippy boat stuff, but here
are a few of the things that I've learned so far from some paddlers far
better than I. This info applies best to a wing paddle, and a boat like
a CD Stratus, Epic 18, racing surf ski, or New Zealand style multisport
boat.
Google some of the videos from K1 races, Speights, Gold Rush, or any of
the South African races.
- keeping your arms straight is a great drill to encourage using your
torso muscles, but that's all - a drill.
-Starting position is with your right arm extended and the blade about
even with your toes. That means that your torso is rotated to the left
in order to get your right shoulder forward and your left arm is bent
with your hand somewhere around your left ear.
-As the blade enters the water, your torso starts to rotate a bit and
your left hand should be pushing across fairly level, and at eye level.
-Once your left hand gets to your breastbone, your left hand should
pretty much stay there and your torso rotates firmly to complete the
stroke. At the same time, your right elbow will bend naturally to lift
the paddle back up to your ear.
-There should be a slight hesitation at this point, before starting the
next stroke.

The paddle should track from very near the deck at insertion to about a
foot-18" (30-40cm) out from the hull at takeout.

You'll find that your top hand drops and cadence should increase as the
conditions deteriorate,

Marsh Jones
Minnesota

Per novice:
ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles?

I'm no expert, but in Bob Twogood's class that I took a few years ago
"Straight-Arm Paddling" was introduced as an exercise - so I'd say "No, the arms
are not completely straight all the time." But I'd also say that there's
very little arm effort involved and virtually all the power comes from rotating
the torso against the push of the leg.
--
PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per novice:
ANd the only force on the paddle is the rotation of your torso? You
dont use your arm muscles?

I'm no expert, but in Bob Twogood's class that I took a few years ago
"Straight-Arm Paddling" was introduced as an exercise - so I'd say "No, the arms
are not completely straight all the time." But I'd also say that there's
very little arm effort involved and virtually all the power comes from rotating
the torso against the push of the leg.


There's always confusion between "Don't flex your arms" and "Don't bend your
arms". Flexing your arms is indicative of using too much arm muscle and not
enough torso rotation. Not bending is often used as a training exercise (to
force torso rotation), but, in normal paddling, proper torso rotation is done
with a comfortable, relatively fixed angle in the arms.

I think that unless the instructors (amateur, professional or the guy in the
next kayak) really get the terminology correct, we'll be answering this question
forever. It should be in a FAQ, if not already.

Mike