Double paddle in open canoe?
 

All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double paddle?
Disadvantage?

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

I have some friends who do some overnight whitewater kayak trips; a guy
sometimes tags along in an OC1. He carries a break-apart kayak paddle
for the steadies, saying that it's more efficient.
Bubba wrote:
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double paddle?
Disadvantage?

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

I've seen people on rivers using kayak paddles in canoes. I'm a yaker, but
also have 2 solo white water canoes. I HAVE tried using a double blade, but
actually found it much more rewarding to learn to properly do the canoe
paddle thing. And it was not any more difficult. But try both


"Bubba" wrote in message
...
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo
canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double
paddle?
Disadvantage?

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

My limited experience suggests that a kayak paddle is more efficient for
a solo paddler, especially if the solo paddler does not have a lot of
hours paddling a canoe solo with a single bladed paddle. To some
extent, it is a skill thing, and I have seen inexperienced solo paddlers
do poorly with a single blade, and improve when they switch to a kayak
paddle.

As someone else said, why not take both? You need a spare paddle
anyway, why not make one a single blade, and the other a double blade.

Richard



Bubba wrote:

All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double paddle?
Disadvantage?




--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:27:13 GMT, Richard Ferguson
wrote:

My limited experience suggests that a kayak paddle is more efficient for
a solo paddler

I wonder if that's true. Consider this: Using a kayak paddle, each
stroke wastes a certain amount of energy in trying to make the boat
turn towards the opposite side.

The same is true of the single-blade canoe paddle.

There are two ways to correct the steering effect: (1) use
alternate-side strokes: left, right, left, right, etc. Or (2) Correct
the steering effect during the stroke, e.g., by using the J-stroke.

So the question most pertinant to the efficiency of double-blade
paddles vs. single-blade paddles may be: Which of the above two forms
of steering correction expents the least energy? Can anyone answer
that one?

Al D

Al D

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

I paddle my 12 ft solo canoe with a double blade paddle, but I sit on the
floor like a kayak and the stroke routine is comfortable.
I tried the same paddle in a Coleman brand fiberglass canoe and was more
comfortable with the single blade paddle in that boat.

$.02

Bill

"Bubba" wrote in message
...
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo
canoe (a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double
paddle? Disadvantage?

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

Per Al Deveron:
I wonder if that's true. Consider this: Using a kayak paddle, each
stroke wastes a certain amount of energy in trying to make the boat
turn towards the opposite side.

The same is true of the single-blade canoe paddle.

The wisdom that I gleaned (correctly or incorrectly...) from a surf ski mailing
list is that outrigger canoes are not competitive with surf skis because of the
single-bladed paddling technique.

I'll leave it to greater minds than mine to explain why.
--
PeteCresswell

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

Bubba wrote:
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double paddle?
Disadvantage?


Speaking specifically to the Prism, a kayak paddle works fine if the
wind is cooperative. If you get a long stretch of crosswind, break out
the bent-shaft and prepare to spend a lot of time on one side if need
be. Also, I much prefer paddling with a canoe paddle if the waves are
up. Too much time out of position if things go wrong, and I can fix
them much faster with a proper canoe stroke.

Marsh Jones
Ketter Canoeing
Brooklyn Park, MN

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

If you are a purist in a "regular canoe" you would use the j-stroke .
As a long time paddler and a new OC1 and OC 6 paddler, the j-stoke is
very efficient[if you know how to do it properly] even if you are in
the bow seat turned around (it is not good if the canoe you are in is
wide and sharply sheared where you are sitting). That also assumes that
you are paddling at 20-30 strokes per minute or less. If you are
wailing away at 50 + there is no way you can stay on one side.

On the other hand I have also used a kayak paddle in a canoe and while
it feels a little funny it's fun. Not real efficient because of the the
height so the suggestin to sit in the bottom of the canoe is a good
one. I like the suggestion of taking both kinds as long as you have a
kayak paddle that splits...



Bubba wrote:
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double paddle?
Disadvantage?

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

I would think that a j-stroke is very efficient, but like stated at a
moderate pace. I'm thinking that a kayak paddle may be a little better
in some situations because you should be able to get a higher stroke
rate. My friend found the kayak paddle was more efficient on steadies
than his whitewater paddle, and he's a fairly competent canoeist. I
don't know how large of a difference there is between a WW and a
touring canoe paddle.

Andrew

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

"Bubba" wrote in message
...
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo
canoe (a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double
paddle? Disadvantage?


Well, there is a certain erosion of style in using a double-bladed paddle in
a canoe. Not that there is explicitly any rule stating that canoes must be
paddled with a single blade, but that creeping change is on the same road
that eventually leads to using a motor. so who's to say where the line gets
drawn? For me, I only use a single blade, solo or tandem, because I feel
cheap if I use a double. Thats the big disadvantage, and AFAIC, it outweighs
any advantages. YMMV

--riverman

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

I disagree that using two plades leads to using a motor. Where's the
reasoning?

My argument would be that on a mixed WW trip, with canoeists and
kayakers, two blades would help to keep up with the kayakers.

riverman wrote:
"Bubba" wrote in message
...
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo
canoe (a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double
paddle? Disadvantage?


Well, there is a certain erosion of style in using a double-bladed paddle in
a canoe. Not that there is explicitly any rule stating that canoes must be
paddled with a single blade, but that creeping change is on the same road
that eventually leads to using a motor. so who's to say where the line gets
drawn? For me, I only use a single blade, solo or tandem, because I feel
cheap if I use a double. Thats the big disadvantage, and AFAIC, it outweighs
any advantages. YMMV

--riverman

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

Andrew is right, but it takes more out of you. You can go faster in a
canoe with a double bladed paddle. It allows you expend more energy in
a shorter time. A paddler in good condition can generate about 1/20th
horse power over long distances, more in sprints. Canoes are not as
hydrodynamically efficient hulls as kayaks.


Andrew wrote:
I disagree that using two plades leads to using a motor. Where's the
reasoning?

My argument would be that on a mixed WW trip, with canoeists and
kayakers, two blades would help to keep up with the kayakers.

riverman wrote:
"Bubba" wrote in message
...
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo
canoe (a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double
paddle? Disadvantage?


Well, there is a certain erosion of style in using a double-bladed paddle in
a canoe. Not that there is explicitly any rule stating that canoes must be
paddled with a single blade, but that creeping change is on the same road
that eventually leads to using a motor. so who's to say where the line gets
drawn? For me, I only use a single blade, solo or tandem, because I feel
cheap if I use a double. Thats the big disadvantage, and AFAIC, it outweighs
any advantages. YMMV

--riverman

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

Interesting thread...Some canoes are being designed to be paddled
sitting on the bottom with a double bladed paddle (as per Bill's post).
To me, they seem to be very much like an open kayak. And I think that's
the key. Sitting low, with low sides would make a double paddle more
efficient, whereas sitting high with high sides (as in a traditional
canoe) would argue for a single bladed paddle. From Wenonah's web site,
it appears to me that the Prism may be one of the more traditional canoes.

Another observation, that might not be accurate, is that it seems to me
that double bladed paddles have less surface area per blade than do
single bladed paddles. Is it possible that each stroke sequence pushes
about the same amount of water in double and single bladed strokes?

Bubba wrote:
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double paddle?
Disadvantage?

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

WG wrote:
Interesting thread...Some canoes are being designed to be paddled
sitting on the bottom with a double bladed paddle (as per Bill's post).
To me, they seem to be very much like an open kayak. And I think that's
the key. Sitting low, with low sides would make a double paddle more
efficient, whereas sitting high with high sides (as in a traditional
canoe) would argue for a single bladed paddle. From Wenonah's web site,
it appears to me that the Prism may be one of the more traditional canoes.

Another observation, that might not be accurate, is that it seems to me
that double bladed paddles have less surface area per blade than do
single bladed paddles. Is it possible that each stroke sequence pushes
about the same amount of water in double and single bladed strokes?

Bubba wrote:
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo canoe
(a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a double paddle?
Disadvantage?



I have used both single and double paddles in my Folbot, which is more
of a tandem, decked canoe, that you sit in like a kayak. The boat is 35
in beam, so is very stable on flat water, and does not require alot of
bracing stokes.

I set in the rear seat, where it is not quite as wide, and you can
easily use a single paddle. However even then the standard double is
quite long, I think like 255, and I use a long single.

I heard that the special forces use the single to reduce the effect of
wind on a double paddle, and I have definitely seen a difference.

The main problem with the single, is that as you shift sides your
paddle drips into the boat, and onto the front paddler, for which I
have been chewed out a few times.

Otherwise both seem to work just fine, at least on flat water lakes
where I am usually sailing, and just need to give a couple strokes to
complete a tack (turn into the wind) :) HYY

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

The Prism is not a 'traditional canoe' in that it wasn't designed to be
paddled 'Canadian style' spending all day on one side, J-stroking to
steer and kneeling with your butt propped on a paddling thwart. Look at
Bill Mason videos/books, or the 1922 Girl Scout manual for proper examples.

It is more the 'sit&switch' design, best paddled with your feet out in
front of you, moderate corrective strokes and switching sides every 10
or so strokes to keep going straight. Not to say you can't J-stroke,
but that's not really the most efficient stroke in this boat. It has
some design features specifically oriented to this style - lots of
tumblehome, fairly narrow to start with, virtually no rocker, and the
seat pedestal mounted at around 5" off the floor and meant to slide
fairly easily to adjust tracking in a crosswind, or to accommodate
different loads. This position is great for paddling with a 52" bent
shaft paddle, or about a 230cm double blade. The kayak paddle is great
for flat water, no side wind and no big waves. It is not as easy to use
if conditions would favor lots of 'same siding' or ruddering might be
required to turn the boat.

Mostly, the blade size is more a function of windage and tempo. Racing
blades for canoe and kayak tend to be relatively small, and I actually
prefer to use a smaller blade even for touring- they put less strain on
your joints. Also, you aren't pushing water - you are pulling the boat
to the paddle:-)

Marsh Jones
Ketter Canoeing
Brooklyn Park, MN
(Wenonah Dealer)

WG wrote:
Interesting thread...Some canoes are being designed to be paddled
sitting on the bottom with a double bladed paddle (as per Bill's post).
To me, they seem to be very much like an open kayak. And I think that's
the key. Sitting low, with low sides would make a double paddle more
efficient, whereas sitting high with high sides (as in a traditional
canoe) would argue for a single bladed paddle. From Wenonah's web site,
it appears to me that the Prism may be one of the more traditional canoes.

Another observation, that might not be accurate, is that it seems to me
that double bladed paddles have less surface area per blade than do
single bladed paddles. Is it possible that each stroke sequence pushes
about the same amount of water in double and single bladed strokes?

Bubba wrote:
All of my paddling experience has been with single paddles in a tandem
canoe. In a few weeks I'll be spending quite a lot of time in a solo
canoe (a Prism) in touring mode. Is there any advantage in using a
double paddle? Disadvantage?

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

Yesterday saw Canadian Forces cadets paddling aluminum canoes with
double bladed kayak paddles. Probably says more about the relevance and
condition of Canadian militray equipment than applied paddling theory.

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

I have a 16-foot tandem with 36 inch beam and a 12 foot pirogue with 27
inch beam.

When I was solo in the tandem tanker (before I made the pirogue) I
paddled it from the bow seat heeled over with a single paddle using the
j-stroke. I switched sides every 20 minutes or so, sliding over and
heeling it the other way.

In the pirogue (a Jacques Mertins "cheap canoe") I sit on the bottom
and use a double paddle that is very long. Even though the sides are
only 12" high, it is hard to use a shorter double paddle because the
sides are flared out as opposed to the tumblehome shape of a kayak. I
bring a single paddle as a back-up, but it is really awkward paddling
with a single paddle while sitting on the floor. The long paddle
length means not much water drips in because the strokes are quite
flat.

I can go faster in the pirogue with the double paddle, but I need more
rest stops on long trips. I made the doublepaddle myself and it is
fairly heavy with relatively large blades. I might reduce the blade
size a bit.

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

Wm Watt wrote:
Andrew is right, but it takes more out of you. You can go faster in a
canoe with a double bladed paddle. It allows you expend more energy in
a shorter time. A paddler in good condition can generate about 1/20th
horse power over long distances, more in sprints. Canoes are not as
hydrodynamically efficient hulls as kayaks.


And Riverman wrote:


Well, there is a certain erosion of style in using a double-bladed paddle in
a canoe. Not that there is explicitly any rule stating that canoes must be
paddled with a single blade, but that creeping change is on the same road
that eventually leads to using a motor. so who's to say where the line gets
drawn? For me, I only use a single blade, solo or tandem, because I feel
cheap if I use a double. Thats the big disadvantage, and AFAIC, it outweighs
any advantages. YMMV

--riverman

The last couple of weeks I have been playing around using a kayak
paddle as the stern paddler in a tandem 18+ foot canoe. The
difference is quite noticable as long as the wind is not a factor. I
imagine a solo boat would be like an Inflatable Kayak, but with much
better performance. (No solo canoe yet).

I have been taking two paddles, one a standard canoe paddle and the
other a break apart kayak paddle that I can fit with a T handle
extension. Right now I just switch paddles. Unless experience proves
different, that will be the final choice as well. Taking the T handle
gives me a backup paddle if I need it.

I can understand the "cheapening" of the experience. But if it is not
a birch bark canoe with a hand carved paddle, then I am already on that
slipperly slope. Materials and methods change. I have the advantage
of feeling less cheapend since I do not have a long history with a
canoe. (I have always taken the IK).

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

"Railtramp" wrote in message
oups.com...

I can understand the "cheapening" of the experience. But if it is not
a birch bark canoe with a hand carved paddle, then I am already on that
slipperly slope.

Ouch, and that statement is precisely the grease on the slope. :-)

--riverman

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

When we paddled the Mississippi River last year, I went back and forth
with taking a kayak paddle. After having spent 73 days on the river,
I'me glad we bagged the idea - the wind wouldn't have made it all that
practical for the most part.

I have paddled with a kayak paddle several times, and did notice our
pace picked up by about .5-1 mph in calm conditions. Overall, it's not
all that worth it to me, and the difference between a 12 oz bent shaft
and 26 oz double is noticable over the course of 10 hours.

In something like a Rob Roy, a double is the way to go. I'm not so sure
about a traditional canoe though.

-John
www.sourcetosea.net



Railtramp wrote:
Wm Watt wrote:
Andrew is right, but it takes more out of you. You can go faster in a
canoe with a double bladed paddle. It allows you expend more energy in
a shorter time. A paddler in good condition can generate about 1/20th
horse power over long distances, more in sprints. Canoes are not as
hydrodynamically efficient hulls as kayaks.


And Riverman wrote:


Well, there is a certain erosion of style in using a double-bladed paddle in
a canoe. Not that there is explicitly any rule stating that canoes must be
paddled with a single blade, but that creeping change is on the same road
that eventually leads to using a motor. so who's to say where the line gets
drawn? For me, I only use a single blade, solo or tandem, because I feel
cheap if I use a double. Thats the big disadvantage, and AFAIC, it outweighs
any advantages. YMMV

--riverman

The last couple of weeks I have been playing around using a kayak
paddle as the stern paddler in a tandem 18+ foot canoe. The
difference is quite noticable as long as the wind is not a factor. I
imagine a solo boat would be like an Inflatable Kayak, but with much
better performance. (No solo canoe yet).

I have been taking two paddles, one a standard canoe paddle and the
other a break apart kayak paddle that I can fit with a T handle
extension. Right now I just switch paddles. Unless experience proves
different, that will be the final choice as well. Taking the T handle
gives me a backup paddle if I need it.

I can understand the "cheapening" of the experience. But if it is not
a birch bark canoe with a hand carved paddle, then I am already on that
slipperly slope. Materials and methods change. I have the advantage
of feeling less cheapend since I do not have a long history with a
canoe. (I have always taken the IK).

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"

Double paddle in open canoe?
 

SourcetoSea wrote:
When we paddled the Mississippi River last year, I went back and forth
with taking a kayak paddle. After having spent 73 days on the river,
I'me glad we bagged the idea - the wind wouldn't have made it all that
practical for the most part.

I have paddled with a kayak paddle several times, and did notice our
pace picked up by about .5-1 mph in calm conditions. Overall, it's not
all that worth it to me, and the difference between a 12 oz bent shaft
and 26 oz double is noticable over the course of 10 hours.

In something like a Rob Roy, a double is the way to go. I'm not so sure
about a traditional canoe though.

-John
www.sourcetosea.net

Good points. Wind and weight are very important factors. The power
boost from a double blade is alluring, but one does tire more quickly.
I can well appreciate the signficance of extra weight in repetitive
motion. And wind is always a factor. More curses have been uttered
over the wind than anything else on a trip.

I will take the kayak paddle on an upcoming trip - just to try.
Independant of the technical issues, there is the comfort factor. I am
new to the canoe and a single blade. I am starting at the humble
bottom of the skill set.

I come to the canoe late. I have always regarded it as the top of the
hierarchy - like good black and white photography. So Riverman, I am
not yet so far down the slippery slope that I can not redeem myself.


Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"