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Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it
available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:24:28 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John First, you need a slightly larger boat in better repair, with an enclosed head. Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. Third, you need an agreement that stipulates sharing of expenses and maybe even monthly payments into a special checking account for maintenance, storage, and insurance. Fourth, you need rules for keeping the boat clean and in good repair. Man, that's a long drive from where you live. Two to three hours, no? Thanks for the tips. No, I've been there before, it takes about an hour and twenty minutes. Of course if 95 is a parking lot, it could take longer. I don't see me going down there much on weekends, and on weekdays I'd just be leaving at 5 AM instead of 6 AM. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
Harry Krause wrote:
JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John First, you need a slightly larger boat in better repair, with an enclosed This really could make for some very very unpleasant family reunions. Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. Third, you need an agreement that stipulates sharing of expenses and maybe even monthly payments into a special checking account for maintenance, storage, and insurance. Fourth, you need rules for keeping the boat clean and in good repair. Man, that's a long drive from where you live. Two to three hours, no? |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
JohnH wrote:
I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John JohnH, For what it is worth, I am in complete agreement with Harry, except I carry it one step further. I make it a policy NEVER to enter into any business arrangement with any family members. What seems like such a smart idea can destroy a family, when suddenly finances are involved. An example of how this can impact on a simple boating arrangement. Suppose user X takes the boat out and as soon as he starts the engine a $10,000 problem occurs, and the mechanic determines it is the result of user neglect, who caused the problem, was it user X or user Y, the person who had the boat before user X, and why should user Z have to pay anything. Trust me, this is trouble with a capital T. |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
"JohnH" wrote in message ... On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:24:28 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? John Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. I agree with Harry .... family or not, multiple people owning the same boat is not good for relationships. (Ask me how I know). I subscribe to the idea that a gift should be given with no strings attached and no expectations as to the gift's future. I remember many, many years ago (early 70's) I acquired a small, beat up 12 foot aluminum boat. My father-in-law, being the pac-rat that he is, rummaged around in his garage and came up with a 1950's vintage 5 hp Johnson outboard that was literally a basket case. It was completely disassembled and the parts were contained in three wooden boxes. I played with it for a while, then stored the boxes of parts away. At some point in our many moves and housecleaning the boxes got thrown in the dump. 23 years later my father-in-law said, "If you aren't going to use that outboard I gave you, I'll take it back and see if I can get it running". Eisboch |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John Can the kids afford to keep up the boat without your one-third interest? If so, just give them the boat as well as 100% of all the expenses. Sell it for $1. You arrive at an understanding that dear old Dad will be allowed to use the boat X days per week, month, quarter, or whatnot on a prescheduled basis- and you can still go fishing while presenting your kids with the gift of a boat. You also want the first right of refusal to buy the boat back (for the same $1) if the kids decide to sell it. That would be my approach, but I agree with others that it can be risky sharing a boat with family members. You'd be better off having a sharing agreement with strangers, administered by a neutral third party, than getting into family wrangles about just who ran over a rock and bent the prop or left the boat a total mess last week, etc. |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:39:44 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:24:28 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John First, you need a slightly larger boat in better repair, with an enclosed head. Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. Third, you need an agreement that stipulates sharing of expenses and maybe even monthly payments into a special checking account for maintenance, storage, and insurance. Fourth, you need rules for keeping the boat clean and in good repair. Man, that's a long drive from where you live. Two to three hours, no? Thanks for the tips. No, I've been there before, it takes about an hour and twenty minutes. Of course if 95 is a parking lot, it could take longer. I don't see me going down there much on weekends, and on weekdays I'd just be leaving at 5 AM instead of 6 AM. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John I *hate* 95 between Springfield and Richmond. I zip down 301 from south of Waldorf and if I'm heading down 95 beyond Richmond, get on 95 just above Richmond. That Springfield-Richmond stretch of 95 is just plain scary. I agree, but it's not bad at 5AM. Coming home will be a big pita though. Sometimes it's easier just to take US 1, and bypass 95. But then there's a bunch of lights, and everyone else with the same idea. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:05:41 -0400, "Reginal P. Smithers III"
wrote: Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John First, you need a slightly larger boat in better repair, with an enclosed This really could make for some very very unpleasant family reunions. Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. Third, you need an agreement that stipulates sharing of expenses and maybe even monthly payments into a special checking account for maintenance, storage, and insurance. Fourth, you need rules for keeping the boat clean and in good repair. Man, that's a long drive from where you live. Two to three hours, no? Luckily, the boat's not big enough for any family reunions. Only one family can fit on it at a time. If it doesn't work out, nothing will have been lost. If it does, there's a lot to gain. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:25:23 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:24:28 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? John Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. I agree with Harry .... family or not, multiple people owning the same boat is not good for relationships. (Ask me how I know). I subscribe to the idea that a gift should be given with no strings attached and no expectations as to the gift's future. I remember many, many years ago (early 70's) I acquired a small, beat up 12 foot aluminum boat. My father-in-law, being the pac-rat that he is, rummaged around in his garage and came up with a 1950's vintage 5 hp Johnson outboard that was literally a basket case. It was completely disassembled and the parts were contained in three wooden boxes. I played with it for a while, then stored the boxes of parts away. At some point in our many moves and housecleaning the boxes got thrown in the dump. 23 years later my father-in-law said, "If you aren't going to use that outboard I gave you, I'll take it back and see if I can get it running". Eisboch It's not a gift. I'll retain title. They can share the major expenses for the use of the boat. Hell, they've offered to pay *all* the expenses if I let them use the boat. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On 15 Aug 2006 09:48:15 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John Can the kids afford to keep up the boat without your one-third interest? If so, just give them the boat as well as 100% of all the expenses. Sell it for $1. You arrive at an understanding that dear old Dad will be allowed to use the boat X days per week, month, quarter, or whatnot on a prescheduled basis- and you can still go fishing while presenting your kids with the gift of a boat. You also want the first right of refusal to buy the boat back (for the same $1) if the kids decide to sell it. That would be my approach, but I agree with others that it can be risky sharing a boat with family members. You'd be better off having a sharing agreement with strangers, administered by a neutral third party, than getting into family wrangles about just who ran over a rock and bent the prop or left the boat a total mess last week, etc. That may be an idea. I'd thought of keeping title just to forestall any serious issues. I could always just sell the damn boat and refund any money they'd paid toward expenses. On the other hand, selling them the boat for a buck may provide what I'm looking for without having to be in the middle. It's a hard decision. That's why I asked for ideas. I appreciate them all. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
JohnH wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:05:41 -0400, "Reginal P. Smithers III" wrote: Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John First, you need a slightly larger boat in better repair, with an enclosed This really could make for some very very unpleasant family reunions. Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. Third, you need an agreement that stipulates sharing of expenses and maybe even monthly payments into a special checking account for maintenance, storage, and insurance. Fourth, you need rules for keeping the boat clean and in good repair. Man, that's a long drive from where you live. Two to three hours, no? Luckily, the boat's not big enough for any family reunions. Only one family can fit on it at a time. If it doesn't work out, nothing will have been lost. If it does, there's a lot to gain. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John JohnH, My fast type off a one liner, confused you. A bad financial arrangement among family members can make the Thanksgiving Dinner very unplasant. Sharing an expensive boat, even one given to them, can become unpleasant if one is tidy, and one guy is a mess. If one guy is the one who always handling the boat when an expensive breakdown occurs etc. Sure, if it works out there is a lot to gain, but DAMN if it doesn't work out, there is a lot more to lose. |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:56:55 -0400, "Reginal P. Smithers III"
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:05:41 -0400, "Reginal P. Smithers III" wrote: Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John First, you need a slightly larger boat in better repair, with an enclosed This really could make for some very very unpleasant family reunions. Second, you are headed for disaster. Family members as boat partners is a bad idea, especially for a guy like you who keeps his boat very clean. Third, you need an agreement that stipulates sharing of expenses and maybe even monthly payments into a special checking account for maintenance, storage, and insurance. Fourth, you need rules for keeping the boat clean and in good repair. Man, that's a long drive from where you live. Two to three hours, no? Luckily, the boat's not big enough for any family reunions. Only one family can fit on it at a time. If it doesn't work out, nothing will have been lost. If it does, there's a lot to gain. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John JohnH, My fast type off a one liner, confused you. A bad financial arrangement among family members can make the Thanksgiving Dinner very unplasant. Sharing an expensive boat, even one given to them, can become unpleasant if one is tidy, and one guy is a mess. If one guy is the one who always handling the boat when an expensive breakdown occurs etc. Sure, if it works out there is a lot to gain, but DAMN if it doesn't work out, there is a lot more to lose. Now Chuck's idea of just giving them the boat sounds better and better. Then they can fight it out. I'll present them with a bunch of these thoughts and get their opinions. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:47:48 -0400, JohnH wrote:
That may be an idea. I'd thought of keeping title just to forestall any serious issues. I could always just sell the damn boat and refund any money they'd paid toward expenses. On the other hand, selling them the boat for a buck may provide what I'm looking for without having to be in the middle. It's a hard decision. That's why I asked for ideas. I appreciate them all. -- John, I don't know your family, but if you are thinking there may be problems, I like your idea of keeping the title. If things get out of hand, you can end it by selling the boat. On the other hand, if you sell it to them for a dollar, if things get out of hand . . . and as you are still part of the family, you are in the middle. |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
"Reginal P. Smithers III" wrote in message . .. JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John JohnH, For what it is worth, I am in complete agreement with Harry, except I carry it one step further. I make it a policy NEVER to enter into any business arrangement with any family members. What seems like such a smart idea can destroy a family, when suddenly finances are involved. An example of how this can impact on a simple boating arrangement. Suppose user X takes the boat out and as soon as he starts the engine a $10,000 problem occurs, and the mechanic determines it is the result of user neglect, who caused the problem, was it user X or user Y, the person who had the boat before user X, and why should user Z have to pay anything. Trust me, this is trouble with a capital T. Yep. I *loaned* my sister and BIL $40,000 a few years back with 4% interest and the stipulation it be paid back in 2 years. I had a bit of a problem getting the money back and will never do it again for family or friends. ;-) |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
"Harry Krause" wrote in message . .. JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- In addition to all the financial-based caveats that have already been offered, I would advise you to ask yourself about your family member's existing skill set in regards to operating and maintaining a boat. Has any of them ever taken a boating safety course? A financial loss is one thing, but imagine how you'd feel if a family member was seriously injured in a boating accident due to a novice operator. |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:22:56 GMT, "RG" wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- In addition to all the financial-based caveats that have already been offered, I would advise you to ask yourself about your family member's existing skill set in regards to operating and maintaining a boat. Has any of them ever taken a boating safety course? A financial loss is one thing, but imagine how you'd feel if a family member was seriously injured in a boating accident due to a novice operator. Yes, that I've thought of. The one son had a boat, 24' Chaparral, and took the course. The other will have to take the course over the internet. I'll take him out his first time and do lot's of practice. Thanks for the advice though! -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:18:41 -0400, "Reginal P. Smithers III"
wrote: JohnH wrote: I will soon be moving my boat down to the Rappahannock River to make it available to my kids for their use. Right now the drive for them is much too long. As part of the deal, we three families will share expenses for storage, maintenance, and insurance. I will retain title to the boat. I'd like to draw up an agreement of some sort for such a use of the boat. Any ideas on what considerations I should include therein? -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John JohnH, For what it is worth, I am in complete agreement with Harry, except I carry it one step further. I make it a policy NEVER to enter into any business arrangement with any family members. What seems like such a smart idea can destroy a family, when suddenly finances are involved. An example of how this can impact on a simple boating arrangement. Suppose user X takes the boat out and as soon as he starts the engine a $10,000 problem occurs, and the mechanic determines it is the result of user neglect, who caused the problem, was it user X or user Y, the person who had the boat before user X, and why should user Z have to pay anything. Trust me, this is trouble with a capital T. Well, that's another reason to keep it titled and insured in my name. To do $10,000 damage to this boat, they'd just about have to sink it. Then the problems would be resolved! -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
I have been in a share situation for over 4 years now which has worked
exceptionally well. 3 partners who did not know each other prior to this arrangement. We operate a separate check account from which all expenses are paid and drew up a very brief agreement which evolved over the 1st 12 months of the arrangement. Sharing with family will have different dynamics but no reason why it should not work. The major criteria is the co-operation between the parties & addressing issues as they arise rather than letting them brew. Set out a brief checklist to be completed on entry & more importantly on exit (so the boat is ready for the next user), a timetable or booking system, a 3 or 6 monthly maintenance program and you will all enjoy the benefits of "ownership" |
Multiple boat user agreement - any advice?
On 15 Aug 2006 16:53:57 -0700, "C33" wrote:
I have been in a share situation for over 4 years now which has worked exceptionally well. 3 partners who did not know each other prior to this arrangement. We operate a separate check account from which all expenses are paid and drew up a very brief agreement which evolved over the 1st 12 months of the arrangement. Sharing with family will have different dynamics but no reason why it should not work. The major criteria is the co-operation between the parties & addressing issues as they arise rather than letting them brew. Set out a brief checklist to be completed on entry & more importantly on exit (so the boat is ready for the next user), a timetable or booking system, a 3 or 6 monthly maintenance program and you will all enjoy the benefits of "ownership" Is it possible you could email me a copy of the agreement? Would be appreciated. -- ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** John |
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