E-Tec problems series 1
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:20:22 -0500, Del Cecchi
wrote:

Your physics class covered "vapor" where "Technically, gases expand and
contract under pressure and spread uniformly through a cylinder. Vapors
don't do that."?

I think the concept that is being struggled with is something called
"particulate matter (PM), aerosols or fine particles".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulate

As a mixed phase substance, the gaseous portion is compressible but
the particles themselves are not.


Agree again, and true no matter how small those particles are.

RCE

www.eisboch.com

E-Tec problems series 1
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:55:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Steam is a gas and behaves as such. Water vapor is not a gas.


You guys may be entirely correct, but if so, I can't confirm it by any
source available to me.....


Steam is certainly not a gas. Gasses exist as such at normal temperature
and pressure.

Steam is a vapor emitted from water at it's boiling point.

E-Tec problems series 1
 

" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
. ..

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:55:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Steam is a gas and behaves as such. Water vapor is not a gas.


You guys may be entirely correct, but if so, I can't confirm it by any
source available to me.....


Steam is certainly not a gas. Gasses exist as such at normal temperature
and pressure.

Steam is a vapor emitted from water at it's boiling point.


Disagree. Steam is certainly considered a gas *because* it generally
follows gas rules.
Steam is invisible. You can't see it. The clouds of bellowing white stuff
that is commonly but incorrectly referred to as "steam" is really condensing
water vapor.

Steam is *not* a vapor emitted from water at it's boiling point. That's
condensing water vapor.

Simple explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam

RCE

www.eisboch.com

E-Tec problems series 1
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:24:06 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:05:33 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

No, but I've seen water vapor that was compressed perform work.....
http://tinyurl.com/jtwls

Steam is in a gaseous state, only when it condenses does it form
visible water vapor.

Have you guys got a link or source to support this definition?

Gene, I've looked, but can't find one on-line that clearly defines the
definition that I can understand. My basic understanding is from a
discussion I had years ago with a scientist who corrected my
misunderstanding of this subject and it has stuck in my head. Many people,
including myself before that discussion, think of steam as being the visible
fog seen over a pot of boiling water or the exhaust from the pistons of a
steam powered locomotive. It's not steam. It's condensing water vapor.
Steam is regarded as a gas because it obeys general gas laws whereas water
vapor does not.

RCE

www.eisboch.com

E-Tec problems series 1
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:24:06 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:05:33 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

No, but I've seen water vapor that was compressed perform work.....
http://tinyurl.com/jtwls

Steam is in a gaseous state, only when it condenses does it form
visible water vapor.

Have you guys got a link or source to support this definition?

Gene, I've looked, but can't find one on-line that clearly defines the
definition that I can understand. My basic understanding is from a
discussion I had years ago with a scientist who corrected my
misunderstanding of this subject and it has stuck in my head. Many
people, including myself before that discussion, think of steam as being
the visible fog seen over a pot of boiling water or the exhaust from the
pistons of a steam powered locomotive. It's not steam. It's condensing
water vapor. Steam is regarded as a gas because it obeys general gas laws
whereas water vapor does not.

RCE

www.eisboch.com



The elements that make water can change state between gas and liquid. Can
they also change state to solid?
Just curious,
Jim

E-Tec problems series 1
 

"Jim" wrote in message
link.net...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:24:06 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:05:33 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

No, but I've seen water vapor that was compressed perform work.....
http://tinyurl.com/jtwls

Steam is in a gaseous state, only when it condenses does it form
visible water vapor.

Have you guys got a link or source to support this definition?

Gene, I've looked, but can't find one on-line that clearly defines the
definition that I can understand. My basic understanding is from a
discussion I had years ago with a scientist who corrected my
misunderstanding of this subject and it has stuck in my head. Many
people, including myself before that discussion, think of steam as being
the visible fog seen over a pot of boiling water or the exhaust from the
pistons of a steam powered locomotive. It's not steam. It's condensing
water vapor. Steam is regarded as a gas because it obeys general gas laws
whereas water vapor does not.

RCE

www.eisboch.com



The elements that make water can change state between gas and liquid. Can
they also change state to solid?
Just curious,
Jim


I'll have a CC Manhattan on the rocks.

RCE

www.eisboch.com

E-Tec problems series 1
 

"Guy Aerts" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:36:47 -0400, " JimH"
jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:55:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Steam is a gas and behaves as such. Water vapor is not a gas.


You guys may be entirely correct, but if so, I can't confirm it by any
source available to me.....


Steam is certainly not a gas. Gasses exist as such at normal temperature
and pressure.


What is your idea of Normal Temperature and pressure?

Standard atmospheric temperatures and pressures found on Earth, with
temperatures never coming close to the boiling temperature of water.

E-Tec problems series 1
 

"Jim" wrote in message
link.net...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:24:06 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:05:33 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

No, but I've seen water vapor that was compressed perform work.....
http://tinyurl.com/jtwls

Steam is in a gaseous state, only when it condenses does it form
visible water vapor.

Have you guys got a link or source to support this definition?

Gene, I've looked, but can't find one on-line that clearly defines the
definition that I can understand. My basic understanding is from a
discussion I had years ago with a scientist who corrected my
misunderstanding of this subject and it has stuck in my head. Many
people, including myself before that discussion, think of steam as being
the visible fog seen over a pot of boiling water or the exhaust from the
pistons of a steam powered locomotive. It's not steam. It's condensing
water vapor. Steam is regarded as a gas because it obeys general gas laws
whereas water vapor does not.

RCE

www.eisboch.com



The elements that make water can change state between gas and liquid. Can
they also change state to solid?
Just curious,
Jim


Ignore my smart-ass Manhattan on the rocks. (ice).

I assume you mean can hydrogen and/or oxygen freeze solid? I don't know
but have never heard of it.
There's liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen but I don't know if they can get
cold enough to become a solid.
I suppose if you could achieve absolute zero (zero, Kelvin) then they
would be a solid since at absolute zero there is theoretically no movement
of molecules.

RCE

www.eisboch.com

E-Tec problems series 1
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:17:09 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Simple explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam

Interesting that you example mentions wet steam....since that should
be visible.... it is, by your definition, water vapor.

In my younger years, I used to donate quite a bit of time running
historical steam engines. I can *assure* you that, without a
superheater, these engines were running on wet steam. If vapor was
incompressible, that couldn't have happened.....

Well, interesting discussion, anyway.

I've come across a few contradictions in the world of science and physics
over the years - at least to the level that my simple head can understand.
It seems that a particular theory or mathematical model that works for one
technical discipline may be at odds with those subscribed to in another
discipline. A good example is wavelength issues in electronics versus
optics. Although the rules are similar and both use Smith charts, etc., an
electronics engineer and an optical dude will debate how it works forever.

RCE

www.eisboch.com

E-Tec problems series 1
 

RCE wrote:
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:17:09 -0400, "RCE" wrote:



Simple explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam

Interesting that you example mentions wet steam....since that should
be visible.... it is, by your definition, water vapor.

In my younger years, I used to donate quite a bit of time running
historical steam engines. I can *assure* you that, without a
superheater, these engines were running on wet steam. If vapor was
incompressible, that couldn't have happened.....


Well, interesting discussion, anyway.

I've come across a few contradictions in the world of science and physics
over the years - at least to the level that my simple head can understand.
It seems that a particular theory or mathematical model that works for one
technical discipline may be at odds with those subscribed to in another
discipline. A good example is wavelength issues in electronics versus
optics. Although the rules are similar and both use Smith charts, etc., an
electronics engineer and an optical dude will debate how it works forever.

RCE

www.eisboch.com


Smith charts in Optics? Never heard of such. Tell me more. I have
used smith charts in electronics.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”