safety flare alternative source
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:


"An acquaintance of mine spent a long night on an overturned hull near
Vancouver Island. He had both SOLAS and "USCG approved" flares. He
failed to
attract the attention of a *nearby* fishing boat with either..."


Not too compelling of a story on why to get SOLAS standard flares. But
I
guess carrying a couple could not hurt.

That does not dismiss the fact that SOLAS flares may not be needed by
everyone in
every boating environment. We have no idea where and how RG plans to
boat.
He may not need suspenders and a belt Chuck. ;-)

Not until his pants are falling off. :-)

Read about "burn time" and "luminosity" in this link from an
organization that ran some
head to head tests between SOLAS and USCG approved flares. Particularly
the parachute flares, as those are the units most likely to catch
somebody's attention.


http://www.boatus.com/boattech/pyro.htm

About the time somebody fails to get medical attention as quickly as
needed or additional tens of thousands of dollars damage occur to a
vessel in trouble, that $50 saved by buying cheaper flares will seem
pretty insignificant.


I totally understand the need when boating on the Great Lakes, on
sal****er and on very large inland lakes. But if the person asking the
question boats on a small inland lake (1 -2 miles wide) then the SOLAS
flares may indeed be overkill.

And we have yet to find out where RB boats. ;-)

Just out of curiosity..........do you carry an EPIRB w/GPS receiver and
Type I life jackets on your boat Chuck?




BTW: By sal****er I mean the oceans and gulfs or large bay areas. ;-)

safety flare alternative source
 

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:58:56 -0400, " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT
comREMOVETHIS wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...

JimH wrote:


"An acquaintance of mine spent a long night on an overturned hull near
Vancouver Island. He had both SOLAS and "USCG approved" flares. He failed
to
attract the attention of a *nearby* fishing boat with either..."


Not too compelling of a story on why to get SOLAS standard flares. But I
guess carrying a couple could not hurt.

That does not dismiss the fact that SOLAS flares may not be needed by
everyone in
every boating environment. We have no idea where and how RG plans to
boat.
He may not need suspenders and a belt Chuck. ;-)

Not until his pants are falling off. :-)

Read about "burn time" and "luminosity" in this link from an
organization that ran some
head to head tests between SOLAS and USCG approved flares. Particularly
the parachute flares, as those are the units most likely to catch
somebody's attention.


http://www.boatus.com/boattech/pyro.htm

About the time somebody fails to get medical attention as quickly as
needed or additional tens of thousands of dollars damage occur to a
vessel in trouble, that $50 saved by buying cheaper flares will seem
pretty insignificant.


I totally understand the need when boating on the Great Lakes, on sal****er
and on very large inland lakes. But if the person asking the question boats
on a small inland lake (1 -2 miles wide) then the SOLAS flares may indeed be
overkill.

And we have yet to find out where RB boats. ;-)

Just out of curiosity..........do you carry an EPIRB w/GPS receiver and Type
I life jackets on your boat Chuck?




Shouldn't you add 'fogless' to the 'small, inland' adjectives?
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

safety flare alternative source
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:58:56 -0400, " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT
comREMOVETHIS wrote:


wrote in message
groups.com...

JimH wrote:


"An acquaintance of mine spent a long night on an overturned hull near
Vancouver Island. He had both SOLAS and "USCG approved" flares. He
failed
to
attract the attention of a *nearby* fishing boat with either..."


Not too compelling of a story on why to get SOLAS standard flares. But
I
guess carrying a couple could not hurt.

That does not dismiss the fact that SOLAS flares may not be needed by
everyone in
every boating environment. We have no idea where and how RG plans to
boat.
He may not need suspenders and a belt Chuck. ;-)

Not until his pants are falling off. :-)

Read about "burn time" and "luminosity" in this link from an
organization that ran some
head to head tests between SOLAS and USCG approved flares. Particularly
the parachute flares, as those are the units most likely to catch
somebody's attention.


http://www.boatus.com/boattech/pyro.htm

About the time somebody fails to get medical attention as quickly as
needed or additional tens of thousands of dollars damage occur to a
vessel in trouble, that $50 saved by buying cheaper flares will seem
pretty insignificant.


I totally understand the need when boating on the Great Lakes, on
sal****er
and on very large inland lakes. But if the person asking the question
boats
on a small inland lake (1 -2 miles wide) then the SOLAS flares may indeed
be
overkill.

And we have yet to find out where RB boats. ;-)

Just out of curiosity..........do you carry an EPIRB w/GPS receiver and
Type
I life jackets on your boat Chuck?




Shouldn't you add 'fogless' to the 'small, inland' adjectives?
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

No. Why should I?

According to the testimony Chuck posted the SOLAS standard flares did no
better than the good old USCG ones in a foggy situation when a passing boat
was *nearby*.

If I were in distress in fog (regardless of the body of water) I would
rather rely on good horns (including portable signal horns), boat lights, a
marine radio and possibly an EPIRB/w GPS rather than SOLAS flares.

I do not understand you point John.

safety flare alternative source
 

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:


"An acquaintance of mine spent a long night on an overturned hull near
Vancouver Island. He had both SOLAS and "USCG approved" flares. He failed
to
attract the attention of a *nearby* fishing boat with either..."


Not too compelling of a story on why to get SOLAS standard flares. But I
guess carrying a couple could not hurt.

That does not dismiss the fact that SOLAS flares may not be needed by
everyone in
every boating environment. We have no idea where and how RG plans to
boat.
He may not need suspenders and a belt Chuck. ;-)

Not until his pants are falling off. :-)

Read about "burn time" and "luminosity" in this link from an
organization that ran some
head to head tests between SOLAS and USCG approved flares. Particularly
the parachute flares, as those are the units most likely to catch
somebody's attention.


http://www.boatus.com/boattech/pyro.htm

About the time somebody fails to get medical attention as quickly as
needed or additional tens of thousands of dollars damage occur to a
vessel in trouble, that $50 saved by buying cheaper flares will seem
pretty insignificant.


I totally understand the need when boating on the Great Lakes, on sal****er
and on very large inland lakes. But if the person asking the question boats
on a small inland lake (1 -2 miles wide) then the SOLAS flares may indeed be
overkill.

And we have yet to find out where RB boats. ;-)

Just out of curiosity..........do you carry an EPIRB w/GPS receiver and Type
I life jackets on your boat Chuck?

Yes to the Type I life jackets. We have 2, and that's the number of
people aboard our boat
99% of the time when we're underway. We also have 8 Type II jackets for
Special Peoples' Cruises or other times when we have guests aboard, and
if we're just going ashore in the dinghy we'll typically wear a Type II
rather than a Type I. (yes, we always wear PFD in the dinghy as it is a
small, open, boat). If I'm single handing, I don't go on deck without
at least my inflatable PFD and would upgrade if conditions warranted.

If I were to add anything to my inventory of safety gear it would be
two survival suits.
See the upcoming issue of a certain boating mag for an excellent
article, (written by an MD),
about the hazards of hypothermia.

No to the EPIRB. Don't ever get far enough offshore to really need
one...BUT!!...if I needed one (or, as in the case of flares, one were
required) I wouldn't settle for the cheapest available as "probably
good enough."

We agree that everybody needs flares, but we disagree whether buying
decent flares is a proper priority for the use of boat bucks. My "belt
and suspenders" opinon is that it's better to have a flare that's
ridiculously overbright for conditionis than one that is just a wee bit
short of good enough to be seen. But then again, I'm the guy who still
keeps the paper chart
open on the chart table immediately below the SIMRAD chartplotter.
YMMV. :-)

safety flare alternative source
 

JimH wrote:

******************************************

No. Why should I?

According to the testimony Chuck posted the SOLAS standard flares did no
better than the good old USCG ones in a foggy situation when a passing boat
was *nearby*.

Not so. The PGID (poor guy in distress) noticed a dramatic difference
in the amount of
light produced by the SOLAS flares. It is true that neither flare
attracted the commercial fish boat's attention, but not true that there
was no difference in performance.


I responded to a CG relayed distress call, well after dark, a couple of
years ago in Shilshole Bay. Some guy was out in a small boat, and (as
we learned later) he had run out of gas and drifted onto the mudbanks
outside the marked channel. He didn't have a cell phone, didn't have a
VHF, but did happen to have some cheapie flares. He lit up some of his
flares and began waving and hollering at boats passing nearby. Nobody
noticed him. Somebody having dinner in a restaurant on shore saw the
light and called the police, and the police called the USCG.

Here's a perfect example of a guy who was in trouble very close to
shore but who had a difficult time trying to attract attention with his
sputtering little dimbulb flares. The problem was the backlighting from
the restaurants, etc on shore. I arrived on scene just ahead of the
fireboat. I could see the flare from about 40-50 feet away- period, and
I couldn't get any closer because I would also be aground if I
proceeded. I had to tell the crew on the fireboat where to look to see
the flare, and they were maybe 100 feet astern of me. (They launched an
inflatable to deal with the shallow depths). The PGID was easier to
spot from shore because his little toy flare was against a dark
background. The only chance he might have ever had to be seen from the
water in an environment with any shoreside development (seen by a
rescue vessel rather than a helpless person on the beach) would have
been to use one heck of a bright flare.

safety flare alternative source
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:


"An acquaintance of mine spent a long night on an overturned hull near
Vancouver Island. He had both SOLAS and "USCG approved" flares. He
failed
to
attract the attention of a *nearby* fishing boat with either..."


Not too compelling of a story on why to get SOLAS standard flares.
But I
guess carrying a couple could not hurt.

That does not dismiss the fact that SOLAS flares may not be needed by
everyone in
every boating environment. We have no idea where and how RG plans to
boat.
He may not need suspenders and a belt Chuck. ;-)

Not until his pants are falling off. :-)

Read about "burn time" and "luminosity" in this link from an
organization that ran some
head to head tests between SOLAS and USCG approved flares. Particularly
the parachute flares, as those are the units most likely to catch
somebody's attention.


http://www.boatus.com/boattech/pyro.htm

About the time somebody fails to get medical attention as quickly as
needed or additional tens of thousands of dollars damage occur to a
vessel in trouble, that $50 saved by buying cheaper flares will seem
pretty insignificant.


I totally understand the need when boating on the Great Lakes, on
sal****er
and on very large inland lakes. But if the person asking the question
boats
on a small inland lake (1 -2 miles wide) then the SOLAS flares may indeed
be
overkill.

And we have yet to find out where RB boats. ;-)

Just out of curiosity..........do you carry an EPIRB w/GPS receiver and
Type
I life jackets on your boat Chuck?

Yes to the Type I life jackets. We have 2, and that's the number of
people aboard our boat
99% of the time when we're underway.

What about the other 1%? Are they not important?

We also have 8 Type II jackets for
Special Peoples' Cruises or other times when we have guests aboard, and
if we're just going ashore in the dinghy we'll typically wear a Type II
rather than a Type I. (yes, we always wear PFD in the dinghy as it is a
small, open, boat). If I'm single handing, I don't go on deck without
at least my inflatable PFD and would upgrade if conditions warranted.

If I were to add anything to my inventory of safety gear it would be
two survival suits.
See the upcoming issue of a certain boating mag for an excellent
article, (written by an MD),
about the hazards of hypothermia.


When did this enter into the picture? W

Fair enough.......what about icebergs....killer whales..............killer
waves......lions and tigers and bears......oh my........ummmm. Again, we
may be talking about a boater who is in a small inland lake with only
summertime use. You do not know the facts....neither do I, so why speculate
on what he/she needs?



No to the EPIRB. Don't ever get far enough offshore to really need
one...BUT!!...if I needed one (or, as in the case of flares, one were
required) I wouldn't settle for the cheapest available as "probably
good enough."

We agree that everybody needs flares, but we disagree whether buying
decent flares is a proper priority for the use of boat bucks. My "belt
and suspenders" opinon is that it's better to have a flare that's
ridiculously overbright for conditionis than one that is just a wee bit
short of good enough to be seen. But then again, I'm the guy who still
keeps the paper chart
open on the chart table immediately below the SIMRAD chartplotter.
YMMV. :-)


Yet those flares were of no use in the scenario you previously posted. ;-)

If you indeed wore suspenders and a belt, regardless of the fact that you
only do near shore boating (how many miles is considered offshore Chuck?)
boating, you would have a life raft, survival suits and ditch bag with
portable hand held marine radio, a good supply of portable high dBA sound
signaling devices, an EPIRB (with GPS) and a supply of food and water as you
can easily be swept out to sea if you lost engine power....this is in
addition to your SOLAS flares. ;-)

My point is that everyone needs to do a simplified risk analysis of their
boating safety needs (over and beyond basic USCG requirements)........what
are the risks compared to the costs....what risks/losses are acceptable?
One obviously has to include the loss of life in this analysis.

What is good for you may not be good for another in a totally different
boating environment. ;-)

safety flare alternative source
 

wrote in message
ups.com...

JimH wrote:

******************************************

No. Why should I?

According to the testimony Chuck posted the SOLAS standard flares did no
better than the good old USCG ones in a foggy situation when a passing
boat
was *nearby*.

Not so. The PGID (poor guy in distress) noticed a dramatic difference
in the amount of
light produced by the SOLAS flares. It is true that neither flare
attracted the commercial fish boat's attention, but not true that there
was no difference in performance.

I never said otherwise Chuck.

safety flare alternative source
 

JimH wrote:

What is good for you may not be good for another in a totally different
boating environment. ;-)

There's no reason to carry substandard safety gear, regardless of
boating environment.
If a guy thinks he needs to save a few bucks @ on flares, what the heck
is he doing owning a boat?

Now, admittedly they have a commercial axe to grind, but as I was just
checking to see if the price of a decent flare had shot upward recently
(Ogawd that *was* awful) to the point where safety was no longer
affordable, I did observe the following paragraph on top of page 781 in
the current West Marine Catalog. (I have a hardbound "editor's" copy
furnished by West Marine, but I am pretty sure the page numbers are the
same in the copy you are likely to have on hand).

"SOLAS-grade flares meet very tough specifications that arose out of
the Safety of Life at Sea convention of 1983. These specifications are
much more stringent tha US Coast Guard regulations and these flares far
exceed US Coast Guard requirements as well. They are waterproof, easy
to fire, and extraordinarily bright. You cannot fully appreciate SOLAS
flares until you have seen a demonstration. We recommend SOLAS flares
for all applications."

Why, (aside from the fact that SOLAS flares are more money), would this
company recommend them for "all applications"? Perhaps the important
differences are in the
specs. Let's see.

Orion handheld fla USCG approved. Light output: 700 candlepower.
Retail price $19.99

vs.

SOLAS handheld fla Light output: 15,000 candlepower (14,300 more
candlepower than the Orion). Retail price $18.99 One dollar *cheaper*
than its little wannabe brother.

There is one advantage with the dim little Orion flare. It burns three
times longer (3 minutes vs. 1 minute) than the SOLAS. Whether or not
that's actually an advantage may depend upon whether anybody actually
has a better chance to see the light anytime during that 3 minutes
rather than a light that is rated at 20-times the candlepower shining
for a minute.


Then there are rocket flares.

Skyblazer Red aerial fla Will reach 450-foot altitude, produces
16,000 candlepower, and will burn for a total of 6.9 seconds. Retail
price $29.99

SOLAS signal rocket fla Will reach an altitude of over 1000 feet.
Produces 30,000 candlepower, burns for 40 seconds. (More than twice the
height, almost twice the candlepower, about 6 times the burn length)
Retail price $48.99. You get a lot more for the extra $19 to step up to
SOLAS than you get for the first $30 you spend to just barely get by.

safety flare alternative source
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:

What is good for you may not be good for another in a totally different
boating environment. ;-)

There's no reason to carry substandard safety gear, regardless of
boating environment.
If a guy thinks he needs to save a few bucks @ on flares, what the heck
is he doing owning a boat?

Now, admittedly they have a commercial axe to grind, but as I was just
checking to see if the price of a decent flare had shot upward recently
(Ogawd that *was* awful) to the point where safety was no longer
affordable, I did observe the following paragraph on top of page 781 in
the current West Marine Catalog. (I have a hardbound "editor's" copy
furnished by West Marine, but I am pretty sure the page numbers are the
same in the copy you are likely to have on hand).

"SOLAS-grade flares meet very tough specifications that arose out of
the Safety of Life at Sea convention of 1983. These specifications are
much more stringent tha US Coast Guard regulations and these flares far
exceed US Coast Guard requirements as well. They are waterproof, easy
to fire, and extraordinarily bright. You cannot fully appreciate SOLAS
flares until you have seen a demonstration. We recommend SOLAS flares
for all applications."

Why, (aside from the fact that SOLAS flares are more money), would this
company recommend them for "all applications"? Perhaps the important
differences are in the
specs. Let's see.

Orion handheld fla USCG approved. Light output: 700 candlepower.
Retail price $19.99

vs.

SOLAS handheld fla Light output: 15,000 candlepower (14,300 more
candlepower than the Orion). Retail price $18.99 One dollar *cheaper*
than its little wannabe brother.

There is one advantage with the dim little Orion flare. It burns three
times longer (3 minutes vs. 1 minute) than the SOLAS. Whether or not
that's actually an advantage may depend upon whether anybody actually
has a better chance to see the light anytime during that 3 minutes
rather than a light that is rated at 20-times the candlepower shining
for a minute.


Then there are rocket flares.

Skyblazer Red aerial fla Will reach 450-foot altitude, produces
16,000 candlepower, and will burn for a total of 6.9 seconds. Retail
price $29.99

SOLAS signal rocket fla Will reach an altitude of over 1000 feet.
Produces 30,000 candlepower, burns for 40 seconds. (More than twice the
height, almost twice the candlepower, about 6 times the burn length)
Retail price $48.99. You get a lot more for the extra $19 to step up to
SOLAS than you get for the first $30 you spend to just barely get by.


Good information Chuck. Looks like a no brainer.

Thanks for the information and discussion.

safety flare alternative source
 

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:42:03 -0400, " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT
comREMOVETHIS wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:58:56 -0400, " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT
comREMOVETHIS wrote:


wrote in message
egroups.com...

JimH wrote:


"An acquaintance of mine spent a long night on an overturned hull near
Vancouver Island. He had both SOLAS and "USCG approved" flares. He
failed
to
attract the attention of a *nearby* fishing boat with either..."


Not too compelling of a story on why to get SOLAS standard flares. But
I
guess carrying a couple could not hurt.

That does not dismiss the fact that SOLAS flares may not be needed by
everyone in
every boating environment. We have no idea where and how RG plans to
boat.
He may not need suspenders and a belt Chuck. ;-)

Not until his pants are falling off. :-)

Read about "burn time" and "luminosity" in this link from an
organization that ran some
head to head tests between SOLAS and USCG approved flares. Particularly
the parachute flares, as those are the units most likely to catch
somebody's attention.


http://www.boatus.com/boattech/pyro.htm

About the time somebody fails to get medical attention as quickly as
needed or additional tens of thousands of dollars damage occur to a
vessel in trouble, that $50 saved by buying cheaper flares will seem
pretty insignificant.


I totally understand the need when boating on the Great Lakes, on
sal****er
and on very large inland lakes. But if the person asking the question
boats
on a small inland lake (1 -2 miles wide) then the SOLAS flares may indeed
be
overkill.

And we have yet to find out where RB boats. ;-)

Just out of curiosity..........do you carry an EPIRB w/GPS receiver and
Type
I life jackets on your boat Chuck?




Shouldn't you add 'fogless' to the 'small, inland' adjectives?
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

No. Why should I?

According to the testimony Chuck posted the SOLAS standard flares did no
better than the good old USCG ones in a foggy situation when a passing boat
was *nearby*.

If I were in distress in fog (regardless of the body of water) I would
rather rely on good horns (including portable signal horns), boat lights, a
marine radio and possibly an EPIRB/w GPS rather than SOLAS flares.

I do not understand you point John.


That's OK.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************