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Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
Our state just switched from the old MTB?? additive to Ethanol. Some of
the stations have stickers on the pumps saying you should check your boat engine to see if it can handle the ethanol blend or if it needs some preventative maintenance before running the ethanol blended gas. I've got an old Johnson 80 HP outboard. What do I need to check? Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
The biggest hassle about ethanol is it is alcohol so it attracts water.
"tillius" wrote in message ups.com... Our state just switched from the old MTB?? additive to Ethanol. Some of the stations have stickers on the pumps saying you should check your boat engine to see if it can handle the ethanol blend or if it needs some preventative maintenance before running the ethanol blended gas. I've got an old Johnson 80 HP outboard. What do I need to check? Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
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Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
It's also been found to be a problem with (some?) fiberglass
fuel tanks. See the link below: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...1/ai_n16019367 tillius wrote: Our state just switched from the old MTB?? additive to Ethanol. Some of the stations have stickers on the pumps saying you should check your boat engine to see if it can handle the ethanol blend or if it needs some preventative maintenance before running the ethanol blended gas. I've got an old Johnson 80 HP outboard. What do I need to check? Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
Harry Krause wrote: tillius wrote: Thanks to all for your info. Just for everyone's benefit in the future, here's what I've found out so far: 1). The Ethanol in the gasoline will break down rubber hoses faster. It's a good idea to replace them if they're older. 2). The Ethanol can cause problems with some older fiberglass tanks. View the article below for more info: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...1/ai_n16019367 3). The Ethanol will attract water and hydrated ethanol will sererate from the gasoline or cause a thicker, gunky emulsification with the gasoline. Both of these situations can cause fuel line/injector clogs. Recommendations: Keep fuel tanks full to minimize moisture absorption. Also, use a fuel injector cleaner/treatment every other tank or so of fuel. 4). When gasoline containing MTBE and gasoline containing ethanol are mixed, a reaction with the MTBE and ethanol fuel mixtures can cause fuel problems including clogged fuel lines/injectors, sputtering or inoperable engines, etc. Recommendations: Use all of the MTBE fuel in your tank before filling with the ethanol blend. 5). Why the heck didn't they use butanol instead of ethanol? I would've served the same purpose, but is less corrosive than Ethanol and actually increases the octane rating of the gasoline blend. Till Support the production and use of butanol biofuels as an alternative to petroleum based products. 1) It's 100% interchangable with Gasoline with no engine modifications. 2) It has a higher octane rating (103) 3) It's produced from renewable crops such as corn, barley, wheat, or crop processing byproducts, such as mollasses. 4) Combustion of butanol produces only H20 and C02 (green CO2, not fossilized CO2). 5) Production of butanol from bio-sources produces only butanol, hydrogen (collectable and useable as a fuel source in the butanol production process, and bio-by-products that can be used as livestock feeds. 6) Butanol can be produced for about $1.05 - $1.25 per gallon. Gosh, I guess we don't have the brainpower to resolve combustion engine difficulties with ethanol. Let's give up. You know Harry, you're just a freakin' idiot. Do you even know anything about the differences between Ethanol and Butanol? 1) Using the new technologies, it takes less energy to produce 1 gallon of butanol than it does to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol. 2) The same quantity of butanol or Ethanol can be produced from a bushel of corn feedstock. 3) Both Butanol and Ethanol cost between $1.05 and $1.25/gallon to produce (in quantity) 4) 1 gallon of Ethanol contains about 84,000 BTUs, 1 gallon of Gasoline contains about 115,000 BTUs, and 1 gallon of Butanol contails about 115,000 BTUs of energy. 5) Butanol is 6 times less evaporative than ethanol, and 13.5 times less evaporative than gasoline, resulting in significantly less loss of fuel due to evaporation. 6) The lower evaporativeness of Butanol also makes it much safer to store and transport than either Ethanol or Gasoline. 7) Millions of engines are already designed to operate using Gasoline. Butanol can replace gasoline 100% in these engines with no modification. Ethanol can only be used up to about an 85% additive to gasoline in these engines, and thein only after significan modifications to the engine. There's no need to resolve combustion problems and use Ethanol when it's not the smarter choice. Or course, the leftists rarely choose the smarter choice. So Comrad Harry, either reply intelligently, or I can send you to the commie killfile. Ah, you'll never be able to reply intelligently, so... pinko Later comrad Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
Harry Krause wrote:
tillius wrote: So Comrad Harry, either reply intelligently, or I can send you to the commie killfile. I don't give a damn what you do. Why should I? He's desperate for at least one person to pay attention to him. |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: tillius wrote: So Comrad Harry, either reply intelligently, or I can send you to the commie killfile. I don't give a damn what you do. Why should I? He's desperate for at least one person to pay attention to him. Well, hardly. You're a bit annoying with your left wing dribble too. I did notice that, unlike Comrad Harry, you do occasionally post about boating. That'll probably keep you out of my commie-killfile for a while, at least. Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
tillius wrote:
Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: tillius wrote: So Comrad Harry, either reply intelligently, or I can send you to the commie killfile. I don't give a damn what you do. Why should I? He's desperate for at least one person to pay attention to him. Well, hardly. You're a bit annoying with your left wing dribble too. I did notice that, unlike Comrad Harry, you do occasionally post about boating. That'll probably keep you out of my commie-killfile for a while, at least. Till Power to the People! |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
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Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
In article .com,
says... jps wrote: In article , says... Don White wrote: tillius wrote: Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: tillius wrote: So Comrad Harry, either reply intelligently, or I can send you to the commie killfile. I don't give a damn what you do. Why should I? He's desperate for at least one person to pay attention to him. Well, hardly. You're a bit annoying with your left wing dribble too. I did notice that, unlike Comrad Harry, you do occasionally post about boating. That'll probably keep you out of my commie-killfile for a while, at least. Till Power to the People! Till wouldn't know a commie if one bit him on the butt. He's just another brain-dead Bert. The thread seems an obvious butanol troll. How quickly he gathered all that new info on the ethanol vs. butanol debate. jps Nope, wasn't a butanol troll. Was a sincere question about what I might need to do to my engine because of the ethanol issues. Found the butanol info while I was searching the ethanol problem. Was just provided FYI until comrad Krause had to interject idiotic remarks into the thread. Till You seem mighty convinced about butanol's superiority at a really fast pace (within hours). I'm curious if you've visited any websites of the worthy opposition to butanol to see what, if any, downsides exist... jps |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
jps wrote: In article .com, says... jps wrote: In article , says... Don White wrote: tillius wrote: Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: tillius wrote: So Comrad Harry, either reply intelligently, or I can send you to the commie killfile. I don't give a damn what you do. Why should I? He's desperate for at least one person to pay attention to him. Well, hardly. You're a bit annoying with your left wing dribble too. I did notice that, unlike Comrad Harry, you do occasionally post about boating. That'll probably keep you out of my commie-killfile for a while, at least. Till Power to the People! Till wouldn't know a commie if one bit him on the butt. He's just another brain-dead Bert. The thread seems an obvious butanol troll. How quickly he gathered all that new info on the ethanol vs. butanol debate. jps Nope, wasn't a butanol troll. Was a sincere question about what I might need to do to my engine because of the ethanol issues. Found the butanol info while I was searching the ethanol problem. Was just provided FYI until comrad Krause had to interject idiotic remarks into the thread. Till You seem mighty convinced about butanol's superiority at a really fast pace (within hours). I'm curious if you've visited any websites of the worthy opposition to butanol to see what, if any, downsides exist... jps The only downsides I've read about so far are the odor and the possibility of hard starts in cold weather. I haven't seen any specific sites in worthy opposition to butanol. My butanol googles returned none so far. If you know of additional information, I'd welcome a link. Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
Also, I've looked for the past week at the effects and up/downsides of
Ethanol vs. Butanol. This thread was one of the last things I did searching for my answers. I am still seeking downsides to butanol, but again, aside from the odor during production and the possible hard starts in cold wheather with a 95 degree flashpoint, and the toxicity (not more toxic than gasoline, however), the only other con I can find was it's high cost of production. The new processes using fibrous fermentation beds have changed the cost of production ($1.05 - $1.25/gallon using corn feedstock) AND yeilds per bushel of feedstock to the same as ethanol, only with higher energy yeild per gallon of fuel. Using a feedstock such as dairy waste from cheese manufacturing reduces the production cost per gallon of butanol to approximately $0.50 per gallon. Again, if you know of links to more downside information on butanol, please let me know. I'm considering forming a co-op to investigate butanol production for the personal use of co-op members in my area. Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
"tillius" wrote in message oups.com... Also, I've looked for the past week at the effects and up/downsides of Ethanol vs. Butanol. This thread was one of the last things I did searching for my answers. I am still seeking downsides to butanol, but again, aside from the odor during production and the possible hard starts in cold wheather with a 95 degree flashpoint, and the toxicity (not more toxic than gasoline, however), the only other con I can find was it's high cost of production. The new processes using fibrous fermentation beds have changed the cost of production ($1.05 - $1.25/gallon using corn feedstock) AND yeilds per bushel of feedstock to the same as ethanol, only with higher energy yeild per gallon of fuel. Using a feedstock such as dairy waste from cheese manufacturing reduces the production cost per gallon of butanol to approximately $0.50 per gallon. Again, if you know of links to more downside information on butanol, please let me know. I'm considering forming a co-op to investigate butanol production for the personal use of co-op members in my area. Till The downside of ethanol, butanol or any other manufactured from grown crops fuel, is that there is not going to be enough of the stuff. Would take just about all our present food grown to provide our present fuel usage. |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
Calif Bill wrote: "tillius" wrote in message oups.com... Also, I've looked for the past week at the effects and up/downsides of Ethanol vs. Butanol. This thread was one of the last things I did searching for my answers. I am still seeking downsides to butanol, but again, aside from the odor during production and the possible hard starts in cold wheather with a 95 degree flashpoint, and the toxicity (not more toxic than gasoline, however), the only other con I can find was it's high cost of production. The new processes using fibrous fermentation beds have changed the cost of production ($1.05 - $1.25/gallon using corn feedstock) AND yeilds per bushel of feedstock to the same as ethanol, only with higher energy yeild per gallon of fuel. Using a feedstock such as dairy waste from cheese manufacturing reduces the production cost per gallon of butanol to approximately $0.50 per gallon. Again, if you know of links to more downside information on butanol, please let me know. I'm considering forming a co-op to investigate butanol production for the personal use of co-op members in my area. Till The downside of ethanol, butanol or any other manufactured from grown crops fuel, is that there is not going to be enough of the stuff. Would take just about all our present food grown to provide our present fuel usage. I understand the quantity of feedstock it would take to supply our present fuel usage with bio-fuels, however, there are several points that should be considered: 1. Using these newer fermentation methods, butanol (or ehtanol) can be produced from waste agri-products, such as rice straw, corn stalks, sawdust, and the dairy waste from cheese production. 2. Bio-fuels can be produced from crops such as Jatropha (yeilding 200 gallons per acre), Coconut (300 gals/acre), and Palm (600 gals/acre). All of these crops can be grown in arid regions where the current agricultural footprint is very small. 3. Over 60% of the US corn crop is low quality Bt corn, which has hardly any market value and which is usually discarded (at tax payers expense) into inefficient ethanol production, or dumped into 3rd world countries as sub-par livestock feed. 4. Over 40% of our farmland is currenly unfarmed. Thanks to well intentioned governement subsidies that actually pay the farmers not to produce certain crops, we are wasting a vast portion of our natural resources. The feedstock to supply our energy needs with bio-fuel could easily be produced by putting our agricultural industries back to work, while at the same time reducing their dependancy upon government subsidies AND reducing out tax burden. Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
"tillius" wrote in message ups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "tillius" wrote in message oups.com... Also, I've looked for the past week at the effects and up/downsides of Ethanol vs. Butanol. This thread was one of the last things I did searching for my answers. I am still seeking downsides to butanol, but again, aside from the odor during production and the possible hard starts in cold wheather with a 95 degree flashpoint, and the toxicity (not more toxic than gasoline, however), the only other con I can find was it's high cost of production. The new processes using fibrous fermentation beds have changed the cost of production ($1.05 - $1.25/gallon using corn feedstock) AND yeilds per bushel of feedstock to the same as ethanol, only with higher energy yeild per gallon of fuel. Using a feedstock such as dairy waste from cheese manufacturing reduces the production cost per gallon of butanol to approximately $0.50 per gallon. Again, if you know of links to more downside information on butanol, please let me know. I'm considering forming a co-op to investigate butanol production for the personal use of co-op members in my area. Till The downside of ethanol, butanol or any other manufactured from grown crops fuel, is that there is not going to be enough of the stuff. Would take just about all our present food grown to provide our present fuel usage. I understand the quantity of feedstock it would take to supply our present fuel usage with bio-fuels, however, there are several points that should be considered: 1. Using these newer fermentation methods, butanol (or ehtanol) can be produced from waste agri-products, such as rice straw, corn stalks, sawdust, and the dairy waste from cheese production. 2. Bio-fuels can be produced from crops such as Jatropha (yeilding 200 gallons per acre), Coconut (300 gals/acre), and Palm (600 gals/acre). All of these crops can be grown in arid regions where the current agricultural footprint is very small. 3. Over 60% of the US corn crop is low quality Bt corn, which has hardly any market value and which is usually discarded (at tax payers expense) into inefficient ethanol production, or dumped into 3rd world countries as sub-par livestock feed. 4. Over 40% of our farmland is currenly unfarmed. Thanks to well intentioned governement subsidies that actually pay the farmers not to produce certain crops, we are wasting a vast portion of our natural resources. The feedstock to supply our energy needs with bio-fuel could easily be produced by putting our agricultural industries back to work, while at the same time reducing their dependancy upon government subsidies AND reducing out tax burden. Till Water is the reason a lot of land is not farmed. And as to amount of fuel required. California uses 36,000,000 gallons a day of gasoline. Using palm at 600 gallons an acre, you will require 21,900,000 acres of palm for just California. Plus the additional fuel required to make the fuels from palm oil. The major way to reduce oil consumption is to build nuke plants and run electric and hydrogen fueled vehicles and reduce the amount of plastic packaging that we use. Go to the grocery store and they ask "paper or plastic?". Then they use a couple of plastic bags together for bagging. Not much oil in each bag, but look at the amount of bags used. Take a cloth bag with you and use that. Look at the thick plastic on all those cheap items at wal-mart and K-mart, and Costco. Per capita we in the US are the biggest users of gasoline, but I do not think we are the the biggest user per capita of a lot of other oil products. |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
Calif Bill wrote: "tillius" wrote in message ups.com... Calif Bill wrote: "tillius" wrote in message oups.com... Also, I've looked for the past week at the effects and up/downsides of Ethanol vs. Butanol. This thread was one of the last things I did searching for my answers. I am still seeking downsides to butanol, but again, aside from the odor during production and the possible hard starts in cold wheather with a 95 degree flashpoint, and the toxicity (not more toxic than gasoline, however), the only other con I can find was it's high cost of production. The new processes using fibrous fermentation beds have changed the cost of production ($1.05 - $1.25/gallon using corn feedstock) AND yeilds per bushel of feedstock to the same as ethanol, only with higher energy yeild per gallon of fuel. Using a feedstock such as dairy waste from cheese manufacturing reduces the production cost per gallon of butanol to approximately $0.50 per gallon. Again, if you know of links to more downside information on butanol, please let me know. I'm considering forming a co-op to investigate butanol production for the personal use of co-op members in my area. Till The downside of ethanol, butanol or any other manufactured from grown crops fuel, is that there is not going to be enough of the stuff. Would take just about all our present food grown to provide our present fuel usage. I understand the quantity of feedstock it would take to supply our present fuel usage with bio-fuels, however, there are several points that should be considered: 1. Using these newer fermentation methods, butanol (or ehtanol) can be produced from waste agri-products, such as rice straw, corn stalks, sawdust, and the dairy waste from cheese production. 2. Bio-fuels can be produced from crops such as Jatropha (yeilding 200 gallons per acre), Coconut (300 gals/acre), and Palm (600 gals/acre). All of these crops can be grown in arid regions where the current agricultural footprint is very small. 3. Over 60% of the US corn crop is low quality Bt corn, which has hardly any market value and which is usually discarded (at tax payers expense) into inefficient ethanol production, or dumped into 3rd world countries as sub-par livestock feed. 4. Over 40% of our farmland is currenly unfarmed. Thanks to well intentioned governement subsidies that actually pay the farmers not to produce certain crops, we are wasting a vast portion of our natural resources. The feedstock to supply our energy needs with bio-fuel could easily be produced by putting our agricultural industries back to work, while at the same time reducing their dependancy upon government subsidies AND reducing out tax burden. Till Water is the reason a lot of land is not farmed. And as to amount of fuel required. California uses 36,000,000 gallons a day of gasoline. Using palm at 600 gallons an acre, you will require 21,900,000 acres of palm for just California. Plus the additional fuel required to make the fuels from palm oil. The major way to reduce oil consumption is to build nuke plants and run electric and hydrogen fueled vehicles and reduce the amount of plastic packaging that we use. Go to the grocery store and they ask "paper or plastic?". Then they use a couple of plastic bags together for bagging. Not much oil in each bag, but look at the amount of bags used. Take a cloth bag with you and use that. Look at the thick plastic on all those cheap items at wal-mart and K-mart, and Costco. Per capita we in the US are the biggest users of gasoline, but I do not think we are the the biggest user per capita of a lot of other oil products. I'm not saying bio-fuels are the sole answer. As far as replacing petro based fuel with bio-fuels, it would take between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 acres to produce enough biomass to replace our current petroleum use. Keep in mind those figures given in my previous post did not consider the additional fuel produced from conversion of waste biomass (corn stalk, rice straw, etc) into bio-fuel. There are currenly over 600,000,000 acres of viable farmland not currenlty being farmed. This farmland is capable of producing high-level feedstocks such as corn and is not being used because of lack of demand. That alone is more than enough to replace our gasoline supply with bio-fuels. Other biomass feedstock can be grown on those arid lands where water is a problem, look at Jatropha or even Hemp which can easily grow on those lands. Hemp is a potential feedstock I didn't mention before, primarily because of the reaction mentioning hemp gets, but hemp is capable of yeilding 1000-1500 gallons of bio-fuel per acre. I do agree, proper utilization of hydro, solar, wind and nuclear energy is critical to satisfying our energy needs going forward. I also agree we need to commit more resources to developing hydrogen fuel cell technology. There is absolutely no reason future vehicles could use a hybrid IC/electrical propulsion system using bio-fuels such as butanol and hydrogen-fuelcell technology. As a matter of fact, with the newest methods of producing butanol, the primary byproduct of the process is hydrogen, which can easily be reclaimed as the primary fuel source for bio-fuel production. Till |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
On 25 Apr 2006 11:27:15 -0700, "tillius" wrote:
I'm not saying bio-fuels are the sole answer. As far as replacing petro based fuel with bio-fuels, it would take between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 acres to produce enough biomass to replace our current petroleum use. Keep in mind those figures given in my previous post did not consider the additional fuel produced from conversion of waste biomass (corn stalk, rice straw, etc) into bio-fuel. There are currenly over 600,000,000 acres of viable farmland not currenlty being farmed. This farmland is capable of producing high-level feedstocks such as corn and is not being used because of lack of demand. That alone is more than enough to replace our gasoline supply with bio-fuels. Other biomass feedstock can be grown on those arid lands where water is a problem, look at Jatropha or even Hemp which can easily grow on those lands. Hemp is a potential feedstock I didn't mention before, primarily because of the reaction mentioning hemp gets, but hemp is capable of yeilding 1000-1500 gallons of bio-fuel per acre. I do agree, proper utilization of hydro, solar, wind and nuclear energy is critical to satisfying our energy needs going forward. I also agree we need to commit more resources to developing hydrogen fuel cell technology. There is absolutely no reason future vehicles could use a hybrid IC/electrical propulsion system using bio-fuels such as butanol and hydrogen-fuelcell technology. As a matter of fact, with the newest methods of producing butanol, the primary byproduct of the process is hydrogen, which can easily be reclaimed as the primary fuel source for bio-fuel production. Till When I grew up on the farm, we always had about 40 acres (out of the 160) in the 'soil bank'. The land was not used to grow corn or other crop for income or feed, but it was *used*. A crop such as clover would be planted in the field, allowed to grow fully, and then plowed under. The purpose was to fertilize the soil. Without this process commercial fertilizer would be required, or the land would become 'worked out'. -- 'Til next time, John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Question about ethanol fortified gas and boat engines
JohnH wrote: On 25 Apr 2006 11:27:15 -0700, "tillius" wrote: I'm not saying bio-fuels are the sole answer. As far as replacing petro based fuel with bio-fuels, it would take between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 acres to produce enough biomass to replace our current petroleum use. Keep in mind those figures given in my previous post did not consider the additional fuel produced from conversion of waste biomass (corn stalk, rice straw, etc) into bio-fuel. There are currenly over 600,000,000 acres of viable farmland not currenlty being farmed. This farmland is capable of producing high-level feedstocks such as corn and is not being used because of lack of demand. That alone is more than enough to replace our gasoline supply with bio-fuels. Other biomass feedstock can be grown on those arid lands where water is a problem, look at Jatropha or even Hemp which can easily grow on those lands. Hemp is a potential feedstock I didn't mention before, primarily because of the reaction mentioning hemp gets, but hemp is capable of yeilding 1000-1500 gallons of bio-fuel per acre. I do agree, proper utilization of hydro, solar, wind and nuclear energy is critical to satisfying our energy needs going forward. I also agree we need to commit more resources to developing hydrogen fuel cell technology. There is absolutely no reason future vehicles could use a hybrid IC/electrical propulsion system using bio-fuels such as butanol and hydrogen-fuelcell technology. As a matter of fact, with the newest methods of producing butanol, the primary byproduct of the process is hydrogen, which can easily be reclaimed as the primary fuel source for bio-fuel production. Till When I grew up on the farm, we always had about 40 acres (out of the 160) in the 'soil bank'. The land was not used to grow corn or other crop for income or feed, but it was *used*. A crop such as clover would be planted in the field, allowed to grow fully, and then plowed under. The purpose was to fertilize the soil. Without this process commercial fertilizer would be required, or the land would become 'worked out'. -- 'Til next time, John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** I do understand the need for crop rotation and soil banking. My above statements weren't suggesting we use this land for biofuel feedstock production. The land being suggested for this use is the land that is not farmed because an excess of supply would depress crop prices and make farming even more economically challenging than it currently is. By creating a demand for these feedstocks, we will be creating additional opportunities for the agricultural industries to increase production AND profits. The other land being suggested for use are marginal farmlands which cannot reliably be used to produce food crops, but which will support other, more hearty crops like jatropa or hemp, to be used as feedstock for production of biofuels. Till |
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