Ethanol and WTF?
 

MY only personal experience with the issue was...

I moved my 16 ft Carolina Skiff with 40 yamaha 2 cycle from Texas
(non-ethanol) to Wisconsin (Ethanol) a few years ago. Shortly after I
first used the motor in Wisconsin ( perhaps shortly after my first tank of
Wisconsin gas) my engine started acting weird. It would hesitate; it was
hard to start; and finally ... it wouldn't re-start once I got on the lake.
After doing some reading, I replaced the fuel hose and bulb and all was well
again. I assumed that it was just a failing hose/bulb issue....until I did
some further reading...

What I read ( and what you have already read) was that the first tank or so
of Ethanol "cleaned out" all of the "crud" that had built up in 4 year old
fuel system. That crap made its way to the engine and to the fuel line and
plugged it up. In my case, I got lucky with just replacing a
fuel/line/bulb. It may well be that the inside lining of the fuel/line/bulb
was deteriorating on its own, and Ethanol just helped that process along too
quickly. Other boaters, ( I have read) have had to have their engines fuel
system (filters, lines, carbs ) cleaned more thoroughly. after using a tank
or two of Ethanol based gasoline.

I see that Texas has just introduced an optional mixture of ... 85%
Ethanol/15% gasoline ... in certain stations. I wonder what THAT will do
to my Texas based boat???

RichG TX --
manager, Carolina Skiff Owners Group on MSN
http://groups.msn.com/CarolinaSkiffOwners
..

Ethanol and WTF?
 

I see that Texas has just introduced an optional mixture of ... 85%
Ethanol/15% gasoline ... in certain stations. I wonder what THAT will
do
to my Texas based boat???


It will burn your two-stroke up!

I'm suprised you didn't do it with the ethanl (wisconsin) blend .

Two cycle oil has a difficult time mixing with the alcohol in the fuel.

when E-85 first hit this area. it was considerably cheaper than regular
fossil fuel.

some el-cheapo's decided that was the way to go fir "feeshin' in the
locak lake. The local mechanic had a a great time replacing power heads
and complete engines beliving E-85 was a God-send!

People wouldn't believe that the Ethanol would destroy a two-stroke
after all "gas-is-gas".

he had a jar with E-85 in it, with some two stroke oil. You could shake
up that jar like a hula girl. Stop. and watch the oil imediatly float
to the top. it didn't mix one bit.

One bad thing is a lot of gas stations will throw in yup to 15%
ethanol, without advertizing it at the pumps. so you have to be careful
where you buy your fuel.

My lowly little Chris Craft has a 4-cyl Chevy 3.0, and I burn the 15%
Ethanol in it. but usually throw a little bottle of HEET in with a tank
ful.

Tim

Ethanol and WTF?
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
I see that Texas has just introduced an optional mixture of ... 85%
Ethanol/15% gasoline ... in certain stations. I wonder what THAT will
do
to my Texas based boat???


It will burn your two-stroke up!

I'm suprised you didn't do it with the ethanl (wisconsin) blend .

Two cycle oil has a difficult time mixing with the alcohol in the fuel.

when E-85 first hit this area. it was considerably cheaper than regular
fossil fuel.

some el-cheapo's decided that was the way to go fir "feeshin' in the
locak lake. The local mechanic had a a great time replacing power heads
and complete engines beliving E-85 was a God-send!

People wouldn't believe that the Ethanol would destroy a two-stroke
after all "gas-is-gas".

he had a jar with E-85 in it, with some two stroke oil. You could shake
up that jar like a hula girl. Stop. and watch the oil imediatly float
to the top. it didn't mix one bit.

One bad thing is a lot of gas stations will throw in yup to 15%
ethanol, without advertizing it at the pumps. so you have to be careful
where you buy your fuel.

My lowly little Chris Craft has a 4-cyl Chevy 3.0, and I burn the 15%
Ethanol in it. but usually throw a little bottle of HEET in with a tank
ful.

Tim

In most places, Minnesota included, gas stations are required by law to
have oxygenate in the fuel. Some places used to use MBTE, but now many
use ethanol. In 07 Minnesota is going to 20 percent. What's good for
the corn farmers is good for you.

Some stations here have "boat gas" without ethanol, for off road use
only.

del

Ethanol and WTF?
 

wrote:
I see that Texas has just introduced an optional mixture of ... 85%
Ethanol/15% gasoline ... in certain stations. I wonder what THAT will
do
to my Texas based boat???


It will burn your two-stroke up!

I'm suprised you didn't do it with the ethanl (wisconsin) blend .

Two cycle oil has a difficult time mixing with the alcohol in the fuel.

when E-85 first hit this area. it was considerably cheaper than regular
fossil fuel.

some el-cheapo's decided that was the way to go fir "feeshin' in the
locak lake. The local mechanic had a a great time replacing power heads
and complete engines beliving E-85 was a God-send!

People wouldn't believe that the Ethanol would destroy a two-stroke
after all "gas-is-gas".

he had a jar with E-85 in it, with some two stroke oil. You could shake
up that jar like a hula girl. Stop. and watch the oil imediatly float
to the top. it didn't mix one bit.

I don't believe that at all. How does the ethanol mix with the gas, if
it won't mix with the oil? Also, how does the ethanol, at 15% keep the
oil from mixing with the 85% gasoline?

Ethanol and WTF?
 

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 22:12:49 -0500, "Del Cecchi"
wrote:


In most places, Minnesota included, gas stations are required by law to
have oxygenate in the fuel. Some places used to use MBTE, but now many
use ethanol. In 07 Minnesota is going to 20 percent. What's good for
the corn farmers is good for you.


Certainly helps the corn farmers in Brazil.
Most of the ethanol used in the us is made in the us.

Brazilian ethanol is made from sugar cane.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

Ethanol and WTF?
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:19:43 -0500, Del Cecchi
wrote:

Most of the ethanol used in the us is made in the us.

Brazilian ethanol is made from sugar cane.

Since ethanol is so damned inefficient in the first place (it takes a
lot more energy to make it than you get when you burn it) I can't
imagine how shipping it very far can make any sense at all.
The only thing that might be worse in efficiency terms is the hydrogen
boondoggle.

The energy required to make ethanol is apparently a controversial
question. For example some folks count the energy to manufacture the
tractor used to grow the corn. Some count the energy to mine the iron to
make the tractor. Some add in the energy to make the trucks and power
shovels to mine the iron to make the tractor. Some add the energy to
make the factory to process the iron ore. And so on with the fertilizer
etc. Then they compare to the energy in a gallon of gasoline.

At least ethanol is pretty much neutral with respect to carbon balance.

del

del

Ethanol and WTF?
 

basskisser wrote:
wrote:


I don't believe that at all. How does the ethanol mix with the gas, if
it won't mix with the oil? Also, how does the ethanol, at 15% keep the
oil from mixing with the 85% gasoline?

Actually it's pretty simple. Over a period of time, the alcohol WILL
seperate fromt he peteroleum...but not instantly.

The properties of the 2-cycle mix will mix well with the gasoline, but
will avoid the alcohol, and when running the E-85 (85% alcohol) it
won't hardly mix at all. The fuel turns into little droplets that jsut
sort of suspend to the top of the fluid in the container.

So when running the E-85, even on an automatic oil-injected engine. you
have the raw , DRY, alcohol fuel, with globs of oil splattering around
in the combustion chambers as well as in the crank case and the
bearings and rings don't get the adiquate lubrication they need. PLUS,
you have to run a leaner fuel to air mixture, which unless the engine
is made for such, will cause the combustion to be much hotter, and
needless to say, the engine and components will suffer due to not only
the excess friction, but way higher combustion temp.

i did some looking around and found a pretty good example of this
scenerio:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/...99/r/983104299

I realize he's talking abotu a junk chainsaw, but look at Tim's second
post. It pretty well tells what the problem's one would face,
especially on an older 2 cycle outboard.

Ethanol and WTF?
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:19:43 -0500, Del Cecchi
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 22:12:49 -0500, "Del Cecchi"
wrote:


In most places, Minnesota included, gas stations are required by law
to
have oxygenate in the fuel. Some places used to use MBTE, but now
many
use ethanol. In 07 Minnesota is going to 20 percent. What's good
for
the corn farmers is good for you.


Certainly helps the corn farmers in Brazil.
Most of the ethanol used in the us is made in the us.

20% is made in the US.

The rest comes from Brazil and Mexico.

Brazilian ethanol is made from sugar cane.

I know - it was a joke.

Apparently your statistic above is a joke also. A few minutes searching
produced

"The U.S. ethanol industry produced a record 3.9 billion gallons of fuel
in 2005, according to the Renewable Fuels Association (RFA). In December
2005, ethanol fuel production reached 364.4 million gallons, but fell
short of demand, which rocketed to 403.2 million gallons. The excess
demand was partially met by imports of 32.2 million gallons of ethanol,
while 233.6 million gallons of ethanol in storage provide about 20 days
of reserve to help meet demand. "

So 90 percent is domestic production. Thanks for playing.

del

Ethanol and WTF?
 

wrote:
basskisser wrote:
wrote:


I don't believe that at all. How does the ethanol mix with the gas, if
it won't mix with the oil? Also, how does the ethanol, at 15% keep the
oil from mixing with the 85% gasoline?

Actually it's pretty simple. Over a period of time, the alcohol WILL
seperate fromt he peteroleum...but not instantly.

The properties of the 2-cycle mix will mix well with the gasoline, but
will avoid the alcohol, and when running the E-85 (85% alcohol) it
won't hardly mix at all. The fuel turns into little droplets that jsut
sort of suspend to the top of the fluid in the container.

Uh, E-85 isn't 85% alcohol, it's 85% gasoline!

So when running the E-85, even on an automatic oil-injected engine. you
have the raw , DRY, alcohol fuel, with globs of oil splattering around
in the combustion chambers as well as in the crank case and the
bearings and rings don't get the adiquate lubrication they need. PLUS,
you have to run a leaner fuel to air mixture, which unless the engine
is made for such, will cause the combustion to be much hotter, and
needless to say, the engine and components will suffer due to not only
the excess friction, but way higher combustion temp.

i did some looking around and found a pretty good example of this
scenerio:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/...99/r/983104299

I realize he's talking abotu a junk chainsaw, but look at Tim's second
post. It pretty well tells what the problem's one would face,
especially on an older 2 cycle outboard.

Where does that link say ANYTHING about the oil not mixing with E-85
properly? All you've given so far is hyperbole. I've not seen one tiny
bit of convincing evidence that backs up your contention that oil won't
mix with E-85. Do you have any? What's more, E-85 actually runs cooler
than unleaded gasoline, that actually being a good thing for your
engine. It also burns cleaner, another good thing for your engine.

Ethanol and WTF?
 

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:48:57 -0500, "Del Cecchi"
wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:19:43 -0500, Del Cecchi
wrote:


Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 22:12:49 -0500, "Del Cecchi"
wrote:



In most places, Minnesota included, gas stations are required by law
to
have oxygenate in the fuel. Some places used to use MBTE, but now
many
use ethanol. In 07 Minnesota is going to 20 percent. What's good
for
the corn farmers is good for you.


Certainly helps the corn farmers in Brazil.

Most of the ethanol used in the us is made in the us.

20% is made in the US.

The rest comes from Brazil and Mexico.


Brazilian ethanol is made from sugar cane.

I know - it was a joke.

Apparently your statistic above is a joke also. A few minutes searching
produced

"The U.S. ethanol industry produced a record 3.9 billion gallons of fuel
in 2005, according to the Renewable Fuels Association (RFA). In December
2005, ethanol fuel production reached 364.4 million gallons, but fell
short of demand, which rocketed to 403.2 million gallons. The excess
demand was partially met by imports of 32.2 million gallons of ethanol,
while 233.6 million gallons of ethanol in storage provide about 20 days
of reserve to help meet demand. "

So 90 percent is domestic production. Thanks for playing.


And where do you think the ethanol in storage came from?

You need to read business journals and investment bulletins a little
more.

Thanks for playing.

can't do numbers, eh? even if all in storage were imported it would
still be less than 10 percent of domestic production in 05. Point at a
link to "investement journal" or other source that says different.
Perhaps you are confused about future projections rather that present
situation.

del

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

Ethanol and WTF?
 

Uh, E-85 isn't 85% alcohol, it's 85% gasoline!

Where does that link say ANYTHING about the oil not mixing with E-85
properly? All you've given so far is hyperbole. I've not seen one tiny
bit of convincing evidence that backs up your contention that oil won't
mix with E-85. Do you have any? What's more, E-85 actually runs cooler
than unleaded gasoline, that actually being a good thing for your
engine. It also burns cleaner, another good thing for your engine.

wrong-o.

89.5 octane is an approx 10% alcohol blend with the unleaded gas.

E-85 is 85% alcohol with 15% fossil fuel.

Tell you what. I think you should load up your outboard with E-85 and
the typical recommended 2-stroke oil mix.

Go to the lake with my blessing. Have fun and enjoy the day! No need
for a tow rope even if it doesn't take up much space in the bow
compartment.

Go in peace. ; )

Ethanol and WTF?
 

basskisser wrote:
wrote:
basskisser wrote:
What's more, E-85 actually runs cooler
than unleaded gasoline, that actually being a good thing for your
engine. It also burns cleaner, another good thing for your engine.

Oh, such genius! How could I have been so mistaken....

Burns cooler? that IS true and sounds great in theory, but not in
practice.

Your outboard, must be re-jetted, to put more fuel into combustion.
otherwise, the engine runs "lean" and your combustion temperatures rise
dramatically. ie you over heat the thing! PLUS! on the standard
carburation, you have to burn more fuel to get the performance you
would normally have with the standard fossil fuel/oil mix.

So...

You have a) poor combustion, b) hotter ignition and 3) really poor
lubrication.

Strike 3... your out!

you know, you could actually research some of this before being so
skeptical.

Here's a good link for you. This guy pretty well backs what I've been
talking about...

http://www.dootalk.com/forums/lofive...hp/t40491.html

But please. Load your two cycle boat up with e-85 and head out to the
lake.

And enjoy the day!

Ethanol and WTF?
 

"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...


Uh, E-85 isn't 85% alcohol, it's 85% gasoline!



You sure about that?

I thought E-85 was 85% ethanol and 15% gas.

RCE

Ethanol and WTF?
 

Fred Dehl wrote:

"Del Cecchi" wrote in
:


In most places, Minnesota included, gas stations are required by law to
have oxygenate in the fuel. Some places used to use MBTE, but now many
use ethanol. In 07 Minnesota is going to 20 percent. What's good for
the corn farmers is good for you.


Except that corn syrup is used as a sugar substitute in most commercial
foodstuffs, because the federal sugar program makes sugar so expensive.
As more corn is used for ethanol production, expect your grocery bill to
increase. And you can be sure the feds won't repeal the corrupt and
obscene "pay not to grow" programs.


Time to buy ADM stock?