Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Boxers damage their brains

Runners wear out their knees.

Mountain bikers break collarbones.


What about paddlers?

Shoulder injuries, for sure... but what else?

I'm thinking about my vertebrae when I paddle - on every stroke, I visualize
them grinding back and forth as I twist my trunk, maybe wearing out the
cartilage like a runner wears out the knees/hips. Is there anything to this?

Other typical injuries?
--
PeteCresswell

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Boxers damage their brains

Runners wear out their knees.

Mountain bikers break collarbones.

What about paddlers?

Shoulder injuries, for sure... but what else?

I'm thinking about my vertebrae when I paddle - on every stroke, I visualize
them grinding back and forth as I twist my trunk, maybe wearing out the
cartilage like a runner wears out the knees/hips. Is there anything to this?

Other typical injuries?
--
PeteCresswell

Arthritis in the shoulders and elbows.

JAM

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Forget his name now but there was a physio who for his project examined
the status of the backs of paddlers who work in the industry -
instructors and the like. He discovered that they had greater incidents
of back injury than nurses. Talk to the play boaters and you will
discover they all have bad backs.

Me I have hyper-extended cruciate ligaments in both knees for getting
pinned and wrapping my knees the wrong way around the cockpit rim but
this isn't a common injury.

In message ,
"(PeteCresswell)" writes
Boxers damage their brains

Runners wear out their knees.

Mountain bikers break collarbones.


What about paddlers?

Shoulder injuries, for sure... but what else?

I'm thinking about my vertebrae when I paddle - on every stroke, I visualize
them grinding back and forth as I twist my trunk, maybe wearing out the
cartilage like a runner wears out the knees/hips. Is there anything to this?

Other typical injuries?

--
Dave Manby

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Open boaters.....knees
"Adolphe Menjou" "Adolphe wrote in message
...
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Boxers damage their brains

Runners wear out their knees.

Mountain bikers break collarbones.

What about paddlers?

Shoulder injuries, for sure... but what else?

I'm thinking about my vertebrae when I paddle - on every stroke, I
visualize
them grinding back and forth as I twist my trunk, maybe wearing out the
cartilage like a runner wears out the knees/hips. Is there anything
to this?

Other typical injuries?
--
PeteCresswell

Arthritis in the shoulders and elbows.

JAM

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Hard to say the cause and effect relationship, but after 10-12 years of
heavy paddling in trippers, with all those 200lb portages and hours and
hours pushing a thousand-pound boat with just shoulder rotation, I now
have a chronic bad back that can be debilitating. I have nothing but
anecdotal evidence, but I have no personal doubt that hundreds of
thousands of twists on my lower back (efficient paddle strokes means
you rotate your shoulders), combined with the pounding on my spine when
tumping or portaging, has been the primary cause. I suppose the
unbalanced diet of a river tripper (low on fresh veggies, high on meat
and canned goods) probably had its impact, too.

Age certainly plays a role, but I was perennially young far longer than
my friends until my back went out. Now I have seemed to have aged
beyond them, as I am less able to hike up big hills, sleep on the
ground for extended periods, or take off on a run or hike without
serious consideration of 'plan B', in case my back goes out.
--riverman

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Mothra wrote:
Dislocated shoulder is by far #1. I've also suffered a concussion
while paddling. Other paddlers have died from a blow to the noggin so
this might be #2 just because of severity.

Kathy, how did you hit your head when you suffered the concussion,
and what type of helmet were you wearing?

I've had 5 sharp blows to my head, all wearing the same red Protec,
but don't believe I got a concussion. Didn't black out or have
headaches the next day, anyway. Then again I'm an open boater,
so I'm never upside down trying to roll. Two blows were to the
temple, so it's good I had a full-coverage helmet.

Dislocated shoulders seem less frequent now that kayakers are taught
to paddle "within the box" but tendonitis seems increasingly common.
I also know about a few broken ankles from portage accidents.

The AWA does not have an injury database, only a fatality database.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

I was wearing a skimpy kevlar helmet that "blew back" and so I struck a
couple rocks dead on with my forehead. Due to a poor design that only
had a single stap on each side buckling in the center. I've found that
helmet strapping systems like the one Grateful Heads uses with 2 straps
on each side coming to a V below the ear and then buckling under the
chin can completely eliminate this problem.

I've hit my head hard enough with a GH helmet to "see stars" and cause
stress (but not breakage) to the helmet (which was retired and
replaced), but that didn't cause a concussion.

And you're right - when I was an open boater, I never had any problems
at all with head injuries.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

You'll simply have to try it. I had the tennis elbow thing once too, but
paddling did not hurt it further, and I'm an aggresive white water guy. Sea
kayaking is far more controlled ( well can be , some are very aggresive
there as well ).
"Maurice M" wrote in message
...
your scaring me now,

looks like I'll have to give tennis away for an extended period because of
a
tennis/golfers elbow that wont heal and I was hoping to get into sea
kayaking pretty seriously (boat hunting at the moment).

does anyone have an opinion if paddling would aggravate this sort of
injury? (I think I really know the answer but I'm hoping someone will say
its a completely different muscle group/ rotation mechanism etc g)

I still swim a few klms per week and the shoulders hold up ok to that
although breaststroke pings the ol' elbow too much for comfort.

maurice
wannabe sea kayaker

"Adolphe Menjou" "Adolphe wrote in message
...
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Boxers damage their brains

Runners wear out their knees.

Mountain bikers break collarbones.

What about paddlers?

Shoulder injuries, for sure... but what else?

I'm thinking about my vertebrae when I paddle - on every stroke, I
visualize
them grinding back and forth as I twist my trunk, maybe wearing out
the
cartilage like a runner wears out the knees/hips. Is there anything
to this?

Other typical injuries?
--
PeteCresswell

Arthritis in the shoulders and elbows.

JAM

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

"Maurice M" wrote in message
Looks like I'll have to give tennis away for an extended period because of
a tennis/golfers elbow that wont heal and I was hoping to get into sea
kayaking pretty seriously (boat hunting at the moment).
Grip wrote:
You'll simply have to try it. I had the tennis elbow thing once too, but
paddling did not hurt it further, and I'm an aggresive white water guy.
Sea kayaking is far more controlled (well can be...)

If you get a paddle with proper blade feather for your anatomy (check out
Werner sea kayaking paddles with totally adjustable feather) and learn
how to paddle from your shoulders with elbows always at the same angle,
sea kayaking should not exacerbate your tennis elbox. It could even help.

I find that muscle soreness or joint pain caused by one exercise is
often improved more by a different excercise, than by just sitting around
and waiting (i.e. "rest").

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
If you get a paddle with proper blade feather for your anatomy
(check out
Werner sea kayaking paddles with totally adjustable feather) and learn
how to paddle from your shoulders with elbows always at the same angle,
sea kayaking should not exacerbate your tennis elbox. It could even help.

No feather at all works just fine, too. Contrary to popular
misconception, there is nothing ergonomic about a feathered paddle.
There is nothing more natural than an unfeathered paddle used without a
"control hand".

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Nice guy! Sheeesh, there is no "self proclaiming" about it! As I'm sure YOU
do, I do what I do which alot of WW, before I got that bug I sea kayaked for
a couple of years, so I'm not generalizing, but trying to be helpful to a
fellow paddler and have the experience to attempt so. I also support the
flat water side of our club, and look down on NO one, not even rafters and
rec boaters! So save the retorts for someone else thank you, and may your
feather always be 90 degrees
"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Grip" wrote in
:

You'll simply have to try it. I had the tennis elbow thing once too,
but paddling did not hurt it further, and I'm an aggresive white water
guy. Sea kayaking is far more controlled ( well can be , some are very
aggresive there as well ).

I love it when self-proclaimed white water kayaker make generalaties about
sea kayaking...but that's not going to stop me from generalizing about ww
kayaking. One thing that sea kayakers, even those that regularly paddle
what might be considered "intermediate" conditions, have to deal with more
than ww kayakers is the wind. Even on a reasonable small lake the effect
of
the wind can be much greater than on a river, primarily due to the fetch
across the water. For that reason, most sea kayakers use feathered
paddles
(I'm not sure why most ww paddles are feathered at all) so that when a
forward stroke is taken the out-of-water blade cuts through the air rather
than pushing it with each stroke. Otherwise, when paddling for several
hours in a strong wind, it can put quite a bit of pressure on the wrists.
Even with a feathered paddle and using good torso rotation rather than
"arm
paddling" the cumulative effect of strong winds blowing on the blade can
have an effect after a long day.

Unfortunately, using a feathered paddle can excaserbate wrist problems as
well if one uses only their control hand, bending the wrist to it's
maximum
range to control the feather on the offside blade.

I've seen lots of experienced paddlers attribute wrist problems to the
paddle (specifically, the feather angle on the paddle) or that getting the
"right" paddle will cure wrist problems. I, however, believe that
technique
more than the choice of paddle influences whether or not might have wrist
problems.

"Maurice M" wrote in message
...
your scaring me now,

looks like I'll have to give tennis away for an extended period
because of a tennis/golfers elbow that wont heal and I was hoping to
get into sea kayaking pretty seriously (boat hunting at the moment).

does anyone have an opinion if paddling would aggravate this sort of
injury? (I think I really know the answer but I'm hoping someone will
say its a completely different muscle group/ rotation mechanism etc
g)

I still swim a few klms per week and the shoulders hold up ok to that
although breaststroke pings the ol' elbow too much for comfort.

maurice
wannabe sea kayaker

"Adolphe Menjou" "Adolphe wrote in message
...
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Boxers damage their brains

Runners wear out their knees.

Mountain bikers break collarbones.

What about paddlers?

Shoulder injuries, for sure... but what else?

I'm thinking about my vertebrae when I paddle - on every stroke, I
visualize them grinding back and forth as I twist my trunk, maybe
wearing out the cartilage like a runner wears out the knees/hips.
Is there anything to this?

Other typical injuries?
--
PeteCresswell

Arthritis in the shoulders and elbows.

JAM

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

John Fereira wrote:
...One thing that sea kayakers, even those that regularly paddle
what might be considered "intermediate" conditions, have to deal with more
than ww kayakers is the wind.

For that reason, most sea kayakers use feathered paddles.

I'm not sure how true that actually is. The use of unfeathered paddles
seems to have increased dramatically in the past few years.

(I'm not sure why most ww paddles are feathered at all)

It was originally done to help the paddle clear gates in whitewater
racing. Again, in the past few years, the trend in feather angles used
by whitewater paddlers has changed dramatically, with many using little
(10 degrees) or no feather now.

...so that when a
forward stroke is taken the out-of-water blade cuts through the air rather
than pushing it with each stroke. Otherwise, when paddling for several
hours in a strong wind, it can put quite a bit of pressure on the wrists.

Unfortunately, the common 45-75 degree angles used by sea kayakers cause
one blade to lift and the other to dive when paddling into headwinds and
with tailwinds. They also catch beam winds in the same inconsistent
manner. The stronger the wind, the harder these things are to control.
This can create significant stresses on the paddler, reducing the
benefit of reduced drag on the paddle from feathering.

In contrast, an unfeathered paddle has more drag, but it's consistent
and predictable.

Even with a feathered paddle and using good torso rotation rather than "arm
paddling" the cumulative effect of strong winds blowing on the blade can
have an effect after a long day.

Yup.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Per Brian Nystrom:
The use of unfeathered paddles
seems to have increased dramatically in the past few years.

I switched to unfeathered when I started getting tendonitis in my control hand.

I still flip it back to feathered if the wind picks up enough. Takes about 20
strokes to get back in the groove...
--
PeteCresswell

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 12:25:12 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

(snipped)

In contrast, an unfeathered paddle has more drag, but it's consistent
and predictable.

That's why I prefer unfeathered. My WW kayak (which I use as a rec
kayak) came with a feathered paddle. I found it seemed to catch more
wind. And, if not careful, waves, which are even more dangerous to
stability to catch. Unfeathered is much better for me. For my very
low volume rec kayak, I bought a paddle that gave 3 choices of
feathering, and I leave it at unfeathered all the time I paddle.
--

r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.
Really.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

....stuff deleted
For that reason, most sea kayakers use feathered paddles.

I'm not sure how true that actually is. The use of unfeathered paddles
seems to have increased dramatically in the past few years.


I stopped using feathered paddles when I began paddling in storms. The blade
was always catching a lot of air (between the blade and the water surface)
and was, at times, nearly touqued out of my hands (it did put a
twisting/lifting motion to the blade). I unfeathered the paddle then and
there and never went back. I think my roll is better with a feathered
paddle, but since I don't plan to do my paddling upside down, this is a
small tradeoff (grin) that is overcome with practice.

(I'm not sure why most ww paddles are feathered at all)

It was originally done to help the paddle clear gates in whitewater
racing. Again, in the past few years, the trend in feather angles used by
whitewater paddlers has changed dramatically, with many using little (10
degrees) or no feather now.

...so that when a forward stroke is taken the out-of-water blade cuts
through the air rather than pushing it with each stroke. Otherwise, when
paddling for several hours in a strong wind, it can put quite a bit of
pressure on the wrists.


Feathered paddles require a lot of wrist rotation, another reason not to use
them, especially on multi-day or extended trips. A little tendinitis goes a
long way.

Unfortunately, the common 45-75 degree angles used by sea kayakers cause
one blade to lift and the other to dive when paddling into headwinds and
with tailwinds. They also catch beam winds in the same inconsistent
manner. The stronger the wind, the harder these things are to control.
This can create significant stresses on the paddler, reducing the benefit
of reduced drag on the paddle from feathering.


Sure do. The only time I found a feathered paddle to be an advantage is when
paddling into headwinds. Any other condition, the unfeathered paddle wins,
hands down.

In contrast, an unfeathered paddle has more drag, but it's consistent and
predictable.

....stuff deleted (because I agree, too)

Rick

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On 9-Mar-2006, "Rick" wrote:

Feathered paddles require a lot of wrist rotation, another reason not to use
them, especially on multi-day or extended trips. A little tendinitis goes a
long way.

Only if the feather is not selected to suit the paddling style. Large feather
angles will require large wrist rotation.

Unfeathered paddles, contrary to popular misconception, require wrist rotation.
However, it is small and opposite that required for a large feather angles.

I use both feathered and unfeathered paddles (former a Lendal Archipelago w/
bent shaft set to approx 30 degree feather; latter a Greenland-style paddle).
If I get into a serious wind, I switch to my spare storm paddle with a sliding
stroke. Regardless of paddle, I don't notice the problems that most people
complain about. Matching the paddle to the technique seems to solve them.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Michael Daly wrote:

Unfeathered paddles, contrary to popular misconception, require wrist rotation.
However, it is small and opposite that required for a large feather angles.

I beg to differ on this point. I find that using an unfeathered paddle -
with a loose grip on BOTH hands - requires no wrist rotation at all. The
key is to NOT use a control hand. I find that people who are used to
paddling with feathered paddles often have a hard time grasping this
concept (pun intended), since a control hand is an integral part of
feathered paddling technique. It takes some "unlearning" to get used to
not gripping the paddle on one side or the other.

When I paddled with an unfeathered Euro, I simply let the paddle float
in my hands and let the blade find it's own orientation in the water.
The fingers on the lower hand merely hooked the shaft and the upper hand
was relaxed and merely pushing.

With a GP, I use the the typical canted stroke, which is guided by a
straight wrist position and the pressure of the fingers wrapped around
the shoulders of the blades. Again, my hands are relaxed and not
gripping the paddle at all, the lower fingers hooking and the upper hand
pushing.

Of course, this is all for paddling in normal conditions. Gripping the
paddle is obviously necessary during certain maneuvers and when
conditions are such that a loose grip could result in losing the paddle.
Still, it's important to relax your hands/wrist as much as is reasonable
under all conditions.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On 9-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:

I beg to differ on this point. I find that using an unfeathered paddle -
with a loose grip on BOTH hands - requires no wrist rotation at all. The
key is to NOT use a control hand.

Your points are correct, but if you do use a control hand, then there
will be a small rotation required.


With a GP, I use the the typical canted stroke, which is guided by a
straight wrist position and the pressure of the fingers wrapped around
the shoulders of the blades. Again, my hands are relaxed and not
gripping the paddle at all, the lower fingers hooking and the upper hand
pushing.

I find that any corrections that are required can be done with a small motion
of the fingers and/or thumb rather than the wrist. This works if conditions
require a firm grip. That eliminates wrist rotation and my fingers/thumb don't
get stressed (compared even to typing/mousing on the computer). I do tend
to get a callous on my thumbs in the same position as the callous from using
a cross-country ski pole.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Michael Daly wrote:
On 9-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:

I beg to differ on this point. I find that using an unfeathered paddle -
with a loose grip on BOTH hands - requires no wrist rotation at all. The
key is to NOT use a control hand.

Your points are correct, but if you do use a control hand, then there
will be a small rotation required.

How so? If the paddle is allowed to seek it's own orientation, there is
no directional input from the paddle required. The paddle simpy twists
in one's hands, if necessary.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On 9-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:

How so? If the paddle is allowed to seek it's own orientation, there is
no directional input from the paddle required. The paddle simpy twists
in one's hands, if necessary.

Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. If you use a control hand, I
assume you are using some grip with that hand and are not letting
the paddle find its own position. I understood you to say that if you
do not use a control hand, then you need to let the paddle loose enough
to allow it to find its own position.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Michael Daly wrote:
On 9-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:


How so? If the paddle is allowed to seek it's own orientation, there is
no directional input from the paddle required. The paddle simpy twists
in one's hands, if necessary.


Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. If you use a control hand, I
assume you are using some grip with that hand and are not letting
the paddle find its own position. I understood you to say that if you
do not use a control hand, then you need to let the paddle loose enough
to allow it to find its own position.

That's correct. I don't use a control hand. It's not necessary with an
unfeathered paddle.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Brian Nystrom wrote:

How so? If the paddle is allowed to seek it's own orientation, there is
no directional input from the paddle required. The paddle simpy twists
in one's hands, if necessary.

Michael Daly wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. If you use a control hand, I
assume you are using some grip with that hand and are not letting
the paddle find its own position. I understood you to say that if you
do not use a control hand, then you need to let the paddle loose enough
to allow it to find its own position.

That's correct. I don't use a control hand. It's not necessary with an
unfeathered paddle.

What magic paddle do you own that doesn't flutter? I want one.

Concerning feathering, Brian is our tireless rebutter:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/war...ssrebutter.htm

Feather angle is very personal, and probably most everybody here
already has an opinion about it, so I'll shut up now, having
played the role of Troglodyte.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


On 9-Mar-2006, "Rick" wrote:

Feathered paddles require a lot of wrist rotation, another reason not
to use them, especially on multi-day or extended trips. A little
tendinitis goes a long way.

Only if the feather is not selected to suit the paddling style. Large
feather angles will require large wrist rotation.

I'm going to disagree with both of you here. Specifically, that a *lot* of
wrist rotation is *required* to use a feathered paddle. While I *will*
agree that performing an offside high brace can be difficult with rotating
the control hand wrist, for a normal forward stroke I don't believe it is
required. When I first learned how to paddle I was told that when taking a
stroke on the off-side that bending the wrist backwards would produce the
proper blade angle. However, I've subsequently learned that I can get
exactly the same blade angle by bending my control arm elbow.

In the context of this thread, the question is whether sea kayaking, and
specifically the use of a feathered paddle can cause wrist injuries. I am
suggesting that, yes, repeated bending of the wrist to it's maximum range of
motion likely will cause injury, but if one drops their elbow a bit and
bends their wrist a small amount, paddling with a feathered paddle won't
inherently cause wrist injuries. That is; it's not the paddle that causes
injuries, it's how one uses it.

I also suggested that the torque a strong wind sea kayakers commonly
encounter on open water can put quite a bit on ones wrists, but as Brian
pointed out, learning how to paddle with a loose grip can alleviate a lot of
that. As Bill suggested, many paddles do flutter (even my unfeathered
Greenland paddle) but a loose grip can help there as well.

Unfeathered paddles, contrary to popular misconception, require wrist
rotation. However, it is small and opposite that required for a large
feather angles.

I use both feathered and unfeathered paddles (former a Lendal
Archipelago w/ bent shaft set to approx 30 degree feather; latter a
Greenland-style paddle). If I get into a serious wind, I switch to my
spare storm paddle with a sliding stroke. Regardless of paddle, I
don't notice the problems that most people complain about. Matching
the paddle to the technique seems to solve them.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
What magic paddle do you own that doesn't flutter? I want one.

Nothing magic about it, it's all in developing a feel for the paddle. In
my experience, fluttering is most commonly caused by overpowering the
paddle. If you develop a feel for a paddle and when to apply pressure
for maximum effect, it won't flutter. When you're really digging in and
paddling hard, you may have to grip it lightly to keep it under control,
but that's true of most paddles.

I remember the first time that I tried a GP; it sawed up and down in the
water uncontrollably. That never happens now. It's all in the technique.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


On 9-Mar-2006, "Rick" wrote:

Feathered paddles require a lot of wrist rotation, another reason not
to use them, especially on multi-day or extended trips. A little
tendinitis goes a long way.

Only if the feather is not selected to suit the paddling style. Large
feather angles will require large wrist rotation.

I'm going to disagree with both of you here. Specifically, that a *lot*
of
wrist rotation is *required* to use a feathered paddle.

I should clarify. When I say a lot of wrist rotation, I am referring to the
number of times (frequency) the wrists must be rotated, not the degree of
rotation. I began paddling feathered. Learned to paddle, as Brian said,
without a control hand. This does work (you do the push/pull with open
fingers and the paddle will remain at 90 degrees, as long as you don't push
too hard), even with a feathered paddle. I eventually gave feathered up as
being incompatible with having complete confidence in my strokes (and rolls)
if I didn't settle on a single method.

While I *will*
agree that performing an offside high brace can be difficult with rotating
the control hand wrist, for a normal forward stroke I don't believe it is
required. When I first learned how to paddle I was told that when taking
a
stroke on the off-side that bending the wrist backwards would produce the
proper blade angle. However, I've subsequently learned that I can get
exactly the same blade angle by bending my control arm elbow.


You can. The problem is that static stresses on joints when they are not
well aligned can lead to repetitive stress injuries. With an unfeathered
paddle, I find very few instances where I have to make such adjustments.

In the context of this thread, the question is whether sea kayaking, and
specifically the use of a feathered paddle can cause wrist injuries. I am
suggesting that, yes, repeated bending of the wrist to it's maximum range
of
motion likely will cause injury, but if one drops their elbow a bit and
bends their wrist a small amount, paddling with a feathered paddle won't
inherently cause wrist injuries. That is; it's not the paddle that causes
injuries, it's how one uses it.


I agree, to a point. Having done some studying of ergonomics, however, we
found that even slight wrist bends can lead to RSI's. The greater the wrist
angle, the more quickly RSI's occur, but they don't completely go away.
There is may be a wrist angle that produces zero RSI injuries, but the risk
of injury is greater due to feathering. On a long trip, I'd prefer not to
take that risk. On single-day paddles, it is unlikely paddlers will
encounter a significant injury of this type.

....stuff deleted

Unfeathered paddles, contrary to popular misconception, require wrist
rotation. However, it is small and opposite that required for a large
feather angles.


As John and Brian point out, this can be avoided. I never seem to have to
adjust my wrists when paddling unfeathered. The paddle seems to easily find
its proper orientation if I use a loose grip and let it find its face on the
water. Once the paddle begins to grab, especially in windy conditions, I may
clamp down the fingers a bit, but only in certain winds do I actually have
to grab and hold the paddle. On calm days, the shaft just floats in my
hands.

I use both feathered and unfeathered paddles (former a Lendal
Archipelago w/ bent shaft set to approx 30 degree feather; latter a
Greenland-style paddle). If I get into a serious wind, I switch to my
spare storm paddle with a sliding stroke. Regardless of paddle, I
don't notice the problems that most people complain about. Matching
the paddle to the technique seems to solve them.


Mike, I found that switching back and forth confused my muscle memory too
much for me to feel secure. Others may not have this problem, but I
certainly do.

Rick

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Hi Bill,

As you probably know Jim Snyder has spent his entire career trying to
get rid of paddle flutter. He even went through some iterations where
he drilled holes in the paddles! The best he was able to accomplish
was coming up with a uniquely shaped small blade (Esoterick) that
swishes through the water much more smoothly than anything else I've
experienced.

www.jimisnyder.com for the best paddle you'll ever dip in the water!
But even Jim will tell you, he's reduced flutter to a minimum but not
eliminated it.

Mothra

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Mothra wrote:

As you probably know Jim Snyder has spent his entire career trying to
get rid of paddle flutter. He even went through some iterations where
he drilled holes in the paddles! The best he was able to accomplish
was coming up with a uniquely shaped small blade (Esoterick) that
swishes through the water much more smoothly than anything else I've
experienced. See www.jimisnyder.com for the best paddle you'll ever
dip in the water! But even Jim will tell you, he's reduced flutter
to a minimum but not eliminated it.

I did not know that the Esoterick was primarily designed for low flutter!
It's a really odd looking paddle.

BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.

Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.

YMMV, or perhaps we should device a new acronymn,
YWRMY (your wrist rotation may vary).

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On 13-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get the same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Michael Daly wrote:
On 13-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:


BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.


I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get the same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)


Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.


You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

It does not do that if you don't use a control hand. YOU DO NOT NEED A
CONTROL HAND WITH AN UNFEATHERED PADDLE. Using a control hand with an
unfeathered paddle is counterproductive. The only people who have the
problem you describe are those who either learned on a feathered paddle
or still use one, and cannot get past the tendency to use a control
hand. Once you give it up, the problem goes away.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Michael Daly wrote:

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.


Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

How difficult is it to comprehend "don't grip the paddle"? I'm at a loss
as to why people who are used to feathered paddles have such a hard time
grasping the concept, but you're not the only one. I guess old habits
die hard.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On 15-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

Lendal with both length and feather adjustment. The length adjustment
comes with feather adjustment but I never use it. I haven't found that I
use any length but the shortest.

Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

I know what Brian's talking about. He is correct when he says that you
don't need a control hand with an unfeathered paddle*. However, most
paddlers continue to use the control hand concept regardless of paddle
type. Hence, they are stating a myth that no wrist action is involved
for unfeathered.

When I teach paddling strokes, I specifically teach paddlers to restrict the
use of a control hand. Use it for a forward stroke as required but never
for bracing, sculling etc. In the latter cases, any control is by the hand
closest to the blade in the water. If you get used to that concept, you don't have
as much of a problem switching between feathered and unfeathered paddles.
I also show them how to set up an adjustable paddle for a forward stroke that
doesn't need any wrist action at all.

*There are paddles that don't work well with no control hand even if unfeathered.
Those with odd blades and certain bent shafts can get away from you unless
you use a bit of control - they don't tend to line up nicely with the flow over the
blade by themselves. Those would be in the minority.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Michael Daly wrote:
On 15-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:


Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?


Lendal with both length and feather adjustment. The length adjustment
comes with feather adjustment but I never use it. I haven't found that I
use any length but the shortest.


Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.


I know what Brian's talking about. He is correct when he says that you
don't need a control hand with an unfeathered paddle*. However, most
paddlers continue to use the control hand concept regardless of paddle
type. Hence, they are stating a myth that no wrist action is involved
for unfeathered.

No, YOU are starting a myth that one cannot paddle unfeathered without
flexing one's wrists. I agree that people who start out paddling
feathered have a hard time letting go of the control hand concept, but
I've done it and I know a few other people who have, so to claim that it
can't be done or isn't done is nonsense. The problem you describe is a
residual one from feathered paddling, not an innate charactertistic of
unfeathered paddling.

When I teach paddling strokes, I specifically teach paddlers to restrict the
use of a control hand. Use it for a forward stroke as required but never
for bracing, sculling etc. In the latter cases, any control is by the hand
closest to the blade in the water.

As it should be. It's one of the paradoxes of using a feathered paddle.
Maintaining a control hand makes bracing, sculling and rolling far more
difficult than necessary. I'm convinced that the "onside/offside"
concept is largely due to the use of feathered paddle and the
difficulties their asymmetry presents. While it obviously can be
overcome, many people struggle for years to do so.

If you get used to that concept, you don't have
as much of a problem switching between feathered and unfeathered paddles.
I also show them how to set up an adjustable paddle for a forward stroke that
doesn't need any wrist action at all.

That's easy, take the feather out. ;-)

*There are paddles that don't work well with no control hand even if unfeathered.
Those with odd blades and certain bent shafts can get away from you unless
you use a bit of control - they don't tend to line up nicely with the flow over the
blade by themselves. Those would be in the minority.

I don't doubt that at all, though I haven't experienced it personally.
It would seem to indicate a poor paddle design. However, if a paddle
needs control, one can simply control the paddle with both hands
alternately, rather than one. That's what a person who paddles without a
control hand instinctively does in conditions that demand firm control
of the paddle. Again, it eliminates the asymmetry of using a single
control hand.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On 16-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:

No, YOU are starting a myth that one cannot paddle unfeathered without
flexing one's wrists.

I believe I have qualified my statements that this occurs with control hand use,
not otherwise. However, I find there are very few paddlers in this neck of the
woods that _don't_ use a control hand. The concept of control hand seems
to be ubiquitous and when I teach no-control-hand techniques, I get strange
stares from students that indicate that I am being heretical. YMMV.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

You speaking of the new Lendal paddles? I have a 4 year old Riot WW
paddle.....LENDAL made the shafts for them, and it's may absolute favorite,
broke 2 werners and a sidewinder. This one is a bent shaft, very very tough!
I did recently see at a shop the new Lendal where you separately purchase
the sharf and blades, everything adjustable....I am reluctant to paddle WW
with a multi-piece paddle, so am awaiting feedback, but that concept would
seem very suited to a touring paddle.


"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 15-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

Lendal with both length and feather adjustment. The length adjustment
comes with feather adjustment but I never use it. I haven't found that I
use any length but the shortest.

Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

I know what Brian's talking about. He is correct when he says that you
don't need a control hand with an unfeathered paddle*. However, most
paddlers continue to use the control hand concept regardless of paddle
type. Hence, they are stating a myth that no wrist action is involved
for unfeathered.

When I teach paddling strokes, I specifically teach paddlers to restrict
the
use of a control hand. Use it for a forward stroke as required but never
for bracing, sculling etc. In the latter cases, any control is by the
hand
closest to the blade in the water. If you get used to that concept, you
don't have
as much of a problem switching between feathered and unfeathered paddles.
I also show them how to set up an adjustable paddle for a forward stroke
that
doesn't need any wrist action at all.

*There are paddles that don't work well with no control hand even if
unfeathered.
Those with odd blades and certain bent shafts can get away from you unless
you use a bit of control - they don't tend to line up nicely with the flow
over the
blade by themselves. Those would be in the minority.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

On 16-Mar-2006, "Grip" wrote:

You speaking of the new Lendal paddles?

I have the older design - I bought when the Paddlok system came out.
No one had experience with the Paddlok so I stayed away.

I did recently see at a shop the new Lendal where you separately purchase
the sharf and blades, everything adjustable....I am reluctant to paddle WW
with a multi-piece paddle, so am awaiting feedback, but that concept would
seem very suited to a touring paddle.

I used such a Lendal on a trip once - four days sea kayaking. The Paddlok joints
are pretty solid - no flex that I noticed. It is neat to be able to buy one shaft
and two or more different blades and change on the fly. I think that for most
folks, the compact size when taken apart makes them ideal for travelling or
storing as a spare paddle - especially if you need to store one inside a
WW kayak.

Are they tough enough to handle rock bashing WW? I don't know. I would
not be concerned with them for most other paddling, though.

Mike

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

Michael Daly wrote:
On 16-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:


No, YOU are starting a myth that one cannot paddle unfeathered without
flexing one's wrists.


I believe I have qualified my statements that this occurs with control hand use,
not otherwise. However, I find there are very few paddlers in this neck of the
woods that _don't_ use a control hand. The concept of control hand seems
to be ubiquitous and when I teach no-control-hand techniques, I get strange
stares from students that indicate that I am being heretical. YMMV.

As I said before, old habits die hard. Kudos to you for being brave
enough to buck the trend and teach alternate methods.

Paddling: Typical Injuries?
 

It does not surprise me that there was no flex in the pPadlok system you
used, one of my spare breakdown paddles is a riot also ( I believe the shaft
is also by Lendal ), is a 4 piece so will fit into virtually any boat, and
although a bit heavy, when put together, is very solid, and at $100. hard to
beat. They do make the Paddlok in a WW version as well.
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 16-Mar-2006, "Grip" wrote:

You speaking of the new Lendal paddles?

I have the older design - I bought when the Paddlok system came out.
No one had experience with the Paddlok so I stayed away.

I did recently see at a shop the new Lendal where you separately
purchase
the sharf and blades, everything adjustable....I am reluctant to paddle
WW
with a multi-piece paddle, so am awaiting feedback, but that concept
would
seem very suited to a touring paddle.

I used such a Lendal on a trip once - four days sea kayaking. The Paddlok
joints
are pretty solid - no flex that I noticed. It is neat to be able to buy
one shaft
and two or more different blades and change on the fly. I think that for
most
folks, the compact size when taken apart makes them ideal for travelling
or
storing as a spare paddle - especially if you need to store one inside a
WW kayak.

Are they tough enough to handle rock bashing WW? I don't know. I would
not be concerned with them for most other paddling, though.

Mike