Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
A passenger on Flight 924 gives his account of the shooting and says
Rigoberto Alpizar never claimed to have a bomb
By SIOBHAN MORRISSEY/MIAMI
(Time Magazine)
Posted Thursday, Dec. 08, 2005
At least one passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 924 maintains
the federal air marshals were a little too quick on the draw when they
shot and killed Rigoberto Alpizar as he frantically attempted to run
off the airplane shortly before take-off.


And at least dozens of others, including the air marshals, heard him claim
he had a bomb. And dozens of others including the air marshals saw him
reach into a bag while running off the plane towards a terminal filled with
people, never bothering to stop despite demands from the air marshals that
he does.

Bang-bang. Dead man. He got what he deserved.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:25:50 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Bang-bang. Dead man. He got what he deserved.

Interesting choice of words for this tragedy. The shooting may have been
justified, but there is no way this man "deserved" killing.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
thunder wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:25:50 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Bang-bang. Dead man. He got what he deserved.

Interesting choice of words for this tragedy. The shooting may have been
justified, but there is no way this man "deserved" killing.



Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

Bang-bang. Dead man.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

*JimH* wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

thunder wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:25:50 -0500, *JimH* wrote:



Bang-bang. Dead man. He got what he deserved.

Interesting choice of words for this tragedy. The shooting may have been
justified, but there is no way this man "deserved" killing.



Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

Bang-bang. Dead man.


Might be time to forward some of your posts to the Arch Bishop of your
diocese.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:37:11 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:
*JimH* wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

thunder wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:25:50 -0500, *JimH* wrote:



Bang-bang. Dead man. He got what he deserved.
Interesting choice of words for this tragedy. The shooting may have been
justified, but there is no way this man "deserved" killing.

Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

Bang-bang. Dead man.


Might be time to forward some of your posts to the Arch Bishop of your
diocese.


You know, that's a good point. I'm certain several right-wing posters
here who claim to be "Christians" would be mortified if their priests or
spiritual leaders were aware of their anti-social, warmongering,
selfish, self-centered ways.

Tell us about the solemn high mass you're attending on Christmas day, Harry. Is it embarrassing to
have said that?

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Can't help jumping in. If he were really intent on killing anybody,
wouldn't his actions
include having a bomb or some kind of weapon?

Seems to me you could say, his actions indicated he either wanted to
scare people,
or was just basically crazy or troubled (off his meds like the wife
said). Mabye the case
could be made that the killing was justified in the name of pragmatism,
but to say that this
guy "deserved" to die seems like a real stretch.

richforman

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
Can't help jumping in. If he were really intent on killing anybody,
wouldn't his actions
include having a bomb or some kind of weapon?

Seems to me you could say, his actions indicated he either wanted to
scare people,
or was just basically crazy or troubled (off his meds like the wife
said). Mabye the case
could be made that the killing was justified in the name of pragmatism,
but to say that this
guy "deserved" to die seems like a real stretch.

richforman


He very much could have had a bomb. Just not able to fire it off. Same as
the guy trying to light the fuse on the shoe bomb. Nuts or not, if you make
a statement that you have a bomb, while on an airplane or public area with
lots of people, I would not fault anybody from shooting the guy in the head,
and killing him very quickly. That includes those with Concealed Carry
permits. Just make sure there are witnesses to the bomb statement.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:00:28 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:25:50 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Bang-bang. Dead man. He got what he deserved.

Interesting choice of words for this tragedy. The shooting may have been
justified, but there is no way this man "deserved" killing.

I could think of a few right off hand. :)



Or Left off hand?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Thunder, I agree with this statement completely.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:17:33 +0000, Bill McKee wrote:


He very much could have had a bomb. Just not able to fire it off. Same
as the guy trying to light the fuse on the shoe bomb. Nuts or not, if you
make a statement that you have a bomb, while on an airplane or public area
with lots of people, I would not fault anybody from shooting the guy in
the head, and killing him very quickly. That includes those with
Concealed Carry permits. Just make sure there are witnesses to the bomb
statement.

Those same witnesses would be testifying against you in court. Air
Marshals operate to different guidelines, and from the little we know of
the circumstances, this shooting was probably justified. However, under
the guidelines of most jurisdictions, this man's behavior doesn't fit a
policeman's guidelines for deadly force, but the guidelines are in debate
as we speak. However, as a civilian, you had better pray for a
sympathetic jury, because you would be facing one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080301867.html

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:17:33 +0000, Bill McKee wrote:


He very much could have had a bomb. Just not able to fire it off. Same
as the guy trying to light the fuse on the shoe bomb. Nuts or not, if
you
make a statement that you have a bomb, while on an airplane or public
area
with lots of people, I would not fault anybody from shooting the guy in
the head, and killing him very quickly. That includes those with
Concealed Carry permits. Just make sure there are witnesses to the bomb
statement.

Those same witnesses would be testifying against you in court. Air
Marshals operate to different guidelines, and from the little we know of
the circumstances, this shooting was probably justified. However, under
the guidelines of most jurisdictions, this man's behavior doesn't fit a
policeman's guidelines for deadly force, but the guidelines are in debate
as we speak. However, as a civilian, you had better pray for a
sympathetic jury, because you would be facing one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080301867.html


You're correct about different guidelines. The simplest would be that you
might be handled differently if you said you had a bomb, but were standing
in the middle of a street which could be cleared of potential victims, or
alternately, on an airplane ramp not far from passengers stuck behind you in
the jet and a wing loaded with jet fuel.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Bill McKee wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Can't help jumping in. If he were really intent on killing anybody,
wouldn't his actions
include having a bomb or some kind of weapon?

Seems to me you could say, his actions indicated he either wanted to
scare people,
or was just basically crazy or troubled (off his meds like the wife
said). Mabye the case
could be made that the killing was justified in the name of pragmatism,
but to say that this
guy "deserved" to die seems like a real stretch.

richforman


He very much could have had a bomb. Just not able to fire it off.

Huh? I don't think I follow you - it was reported right away that the
authorities stated he did NOT have a bomb. So again, I just challenge
the statement made previously: that his actions indicate he was intent
on killing anybody. What actions? (From what I've read so far, his
actions indicate to me that either he wanted to make people THINK he
was intent on killing, or more likely that he was just crazy.) Makes
no sense.

I have not weighed in at all on whether or to what extent the air
marshalls' shooting him dead was justified. It probably was, but I
have to admit this kind of thing makes me a bit queasy. I always
wonder if these people are supposed to be SO professional, so trained,
so skilled, if they can't be expected to have ways in their arsenal to
nullify a potential threat without killing essentially innocent people.
I'm also not saying (yet) that the man killed was innocent, but if he
was mentally ill, it would seem that way to me.

richforman

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:21:29 -0500, thunder wrote:

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.

Kinda like everyone 'misinterpreting' Saddam's weapons and intent? So Bush may have been justified
in his attack, but Saddam really didn't 'deserve' to be attacked?

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:23:56 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.


If I were a prosecutor or defense lawyer, Hertvik would be the first
prospective juror I would want removed from the panel.

I would think you'd try to have anyone with an IQ above 80 removed.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:23:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent
on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.


If I were a prosecutor or defense lawyer, Hertvik would be the first
prospective juror I would want removed from the panel.

I would think you'd try to have anyone with an IQ above 80 removed.

As the saying goes...
"Do you really want your fate determined by 12 people who were too stupid to
get out of jury duty?"

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

That is the first thing lawyers do, they want simpletons who they can
manipulate. My guess is Harry has spent a lot of time on juries.

I have never been called. I always look very stern. Give them very short
answers, and I never get beyond the first round.


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:23:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent
on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.


If I were a prosecutor or defense lawyer, Hertvik would be the first
prospective juror I would want removed from the panel.

I would think you'd try to have anyone with an IQ above 80 removed.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of
OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my manor.
wrote in message ...
That is the first thing lawyers do, they want simpletons who they can
manipulate. My guess is Harry has spent a lot of time on juries.

I have never been called.

I have certain t-shirts in mind to wear in court should I ever be called.

If it's a 4th amendment/illegal search and seizure case:

http://www.iflipflop.com/nosearch_t.jpg


If it's a case of police brutality (a la Rodney King):

http://www.thetshirtgame.com/godblesspolice.gif

http://www.daytonanow.net/warnabrotha/warnabrotha.jpg



And when all else fails:

http://shadow.mediafilter.org/images.../S39madPig.jpg

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:23:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.
No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent
on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a
way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.

If I were a prosecutor or defense lawyer, Hertvik would be the first
prospective juror I would want removed from the panel.

I would think you'd try to have anyone with an IQ above 280 removed.

--
Wouldn't that leave you and Hertvik on the jury, i mean, after the mind
meld?


Indeed. :-)

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

NOYB wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:23:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


thunder wrote:

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:



Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent
on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.


If I were a prosecutor or defense lawyer, Hertvik would be the first
prospective juror I would want removed from the panel.

I would think you'd try to have anyone with an IQ above 80 removed.


As the saying goes...
"Do you really want your fate determined by 12 people who were too stupid to
get out of jury duty?"


Don't you consider that as a civic duty?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:23:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


thunder wrote:

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:



Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent
on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a
way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.


If I were a prosecutor or defense lawyer, Hertvik would be the first
prospective juror I would want removed from the panel.

I would think you'd try to have anyone with an IQ above 80 removed.


As the saying goes...
"Do you really want your fate determined by 12 people who were too stupid
to get out of jury duty?"
Don't you consider that as a civic duty?

One might wonder, ya know? NOYB makes herself out to be such a patriot, but
then he acts proud of his desire to shun his patriotic responsibility. What
a meat sock. I wonder if his parents are also unpatriotic trash.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:17:33 +0000, Bill McKee wrote:


He very much could have had a bomb. Just not able to fire it off. Same
as the guy trying to light the fuse on the shoe bomb. Nuts or not, if
you
make a statement that you have a bomb, while on an airplane or public
area
with lots of people, I would not fault anybody from shooting the guy in
the head, and killing him very quickly. That includes those with
Concealed Carry permits. Just make sure there are witnesses to the bomb
statement.

Those same witnesses would be testifying against you in court. Air
Marshals operate to different guidelines, and from the little we know of
the circumstances, this shooting was probably justified. However, under
the guidelines of most jurisdictions, this man's behavior doesn't fit a
policeman's guidelines for deadly force, but the guidelines are in debate
as we speak. However, as a civilian, you had better pray for a
sympathetic jury, because you would be facing one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080301867.html


Different guidelines than a cop. But with the amount of suicide bombers in
the world, and after 9/11 and the guy with the shoe bomb, would be very hard
to get all 12 jurors to say you are guilty. If you come up with a couple of
creditable witnesses, even a mediocre lawyer could get you off.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill McKee wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Can't help jumping in. If he were really intent on killing anybody,
wouldn't his actions
include having a bomb or some kind of weapon?

Seems to me you could say, his actions indicated he either wanted to
scare people,
or was just basically crazy or troubled (off his meds like the wife
said). Mabye the case
could be made that the killing was justified in the name of pragmatism,
but to say that this
guy "deserved" to die seems like a real stretch.

richforman


He very much could have had a bomb. Just not able to fire it off.

Huh? I don't think I follow you - it was reported right away that the
authorities stated he did NOT have a bomb. So again, I just challenge
the statement made previously: that his actions indicate he was intent
on killing anybody. What actions? (From what I've read so far, his
actions indicate to me that either he wanted to make people THINK he
was intent on killing, or more likely that he was just crazy.) Makes
no sense.

I have not weighed in at all on whether or to what extent the air
marshalls' shooting him dead was justified. It probably was, but I
have to admit this kind of thing makes me a bit queasy. I always
wonder if these people are supposed to be SO professional, so trained,
so skilled, if they can't be expected to have ways in their arsenal to
nullify a potential threat without killing essentially innocent people.
I'm also not saying (yet) that the man killed was innocent, but if he
was mentally ill, it would seem that way to me.

richforman


In this day of suicide bombers, both out of the country and in the country
(9/11 WTC, the young man outside the football stadium) You are going to more
likely believe a statement of someone that they have a bomb, than think 'Oh,
he is just kidding'!

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:14:53 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:23:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0500, *JimH* wrote:


Sure he did. His actions indicated he was intent on killing hundreds.

No, Jim, his actions were *misinterpreted* as indicating he was intent
on
killing hundreds. If that was his intention, he would have needed a way
to accomplish it. He didn't, no bomb, no weapons.

Again, the Air Marshals may have been justified in the use of deadly
force, but this man did not "deserve" to be killed.


If I were a prosecutor or defense lawyer, Hertvik would be the first
prospective juror I would want removed from the panel.

I would think you'd try to have anyone with an IQ above 80 removed.

As the saying goes...
"Do you really want your fate determined by 12 people who were too stupid to
get out of jury duty?"


HEY!! I showed up when I was called! I didn't get selected, but at least I went. Maybe I just looked
too smart.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

John H. wrote:


HEY!! I showed up when I was called! I didn't get selected, but at least I went. Maybe I just looked
too smart.

--
John H


One look at that yellow V8 Mustang & they had you figured for a dope dealer.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
John H. wrote:


HEY!! I showed up when I was called! I didn't get selected, but at least
I went. Maybe I just looked
too smart.

--
John H


One look at that yellow V8 Mustang & they had you figured for a dope
dealer.

They accept dope dealers. It is people with a brain and an education that
the seem to reject. In the last 5 years, I have been summoned 6 times, and
3 I had to show up. Of the 3, 2 were capitol murder 1 cases and the 3rd was
a murder 1 non-death penalty case. Here in California, they at least have
something right. On the big cases, you fill out a 40 plus page
questionnaire on your feelings on death penalty, guns, penalty, have you
been assaulted, hassled by a cop, etc. Then the judge and both sides
lawyers go through the answers. Eliminates at least 50% up front, without
everyone spending a week listening to the same questions asked everybody
else. Been there, done that in about 1978. Of the 2 I have been called to
serve on, they then question you in person. Judge liked me, prosecution
like me, defense excused me.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 03:19:25 GMT, Don White wrote:

John H. wrote:


HEY!! I showed up when I was called! I didn't get selected, but at least I went. Maybe I just looked
too smart.

--
John H


One look at that yellow V8 Mustang & they had you figured for a dope dealer.

Nope. Rode the motorcycle that day. They couldn't pronounce 'Moto Guzzi' and the black leather
jacket wasn't the 'in' item of clothing.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.