God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

On 3 Dec 2005 19:50:56 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Harry Krause wrote:
Skipper wrote:
Pretty good advice to the NG:

God rest ye merry, gentlemen
Let nothing you dismay
Remember Christ our Savior
Was born on Christmas Day
To save us all from Satan's power
When we were gone astray
O tidings of comfort and joy
Comfort and joy
O tidings of comfort and joy

From God our heavenly Father
A blessed angel came
And unto certain shepherds
Brought tiding of the same
How that in Bethlehem was born
The Son of God by name

"Fear not, then," said the angel
"Let nothing you affright
This day is born a Savior
Of a pure virgin bright
To free all those who trust in him
From Satan's power and might."

Now to the Lord sing praises
All you within this place
And with true love and brotherhood
Each other now embrace
this holy tide of Christmas
Doth bring redeeming grace

--
Skipper


It's a pretty 15th Century carol, of course, but the sentiments are
utterly ridiculous. And with your attitudes, Snipper, your professing to
be a "Christian" is the height of hypocrisy.



Skipper the Christian? If so, he must have misread Matthew 5:44. Maybe
he thinks it reads, "prey on those who persecute you." :-)


Do you believe in the Bible Chuck?

I believe in a lot of things. One of those things is that the
collection of books assembled in Nicea in something like the 3rd or 4th
Century to comprise the volume we commonly call "The Bible" (a word
that shares a Greek word that means "library") today was selected by a
group of (mostly) well intentioned priests, clergymen, and highly
placed church politicians. Some of the people on the committee
obviously had some extremely sincere motivations, but it was ludicrous
for people to sit and vote on whether or not the Gospel of Mary, the
Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas, or other texts used by the
Christian churches for the first few hundred years were the "word of
God", or not.

God undoubtedly speaks to a lot of different people in a lot of
different ways, an no mortal person could ever hope to accurately
reduce Godspeak to a human language. Do I believe that the Bible
contains a group of books written by people who believe that God spoke
to them and said "X........."? Yes. Do I believe that there are other
"divinely inspired" books that aren't included in the Bible? Yes. Many
of those books aren't even of Christian or Jewish origin.

So do I believe in the Bible? Of course. I have unassailable evidence
that the Bible exists.:-)

While I don't belong to any church, there is a fairly progressive
congregation in my neighborhood where I am welcome to attend (without
obligation to join or profess anything specific) and I have been known
to do so. I'm a sincere monotheist, who believes that polytheism
celebrates various "aspects" of a divine cosmic consciousness.. I
believe that the soul is energy, and cannot be destroyed, so I have no
real problem with eternal life. If I were to have an extended religious
discussion with a fundamentalist Christian, we would probably be
surprised at the number of things we agree on. However, my personal
faith doesn't fit "between the lines" and it would be hypocritical, as
well as inaccurate, to describe myself as any sort of "Christian" you
would be likely to recognize. :-)

But I come from a long line of independent thinkers and
non-conformists. One of my ancestral cousins, Joseph Smith, was a
founder of the Mormon Church. (His grandmother was a Gould from my
lineage. In fact, his grandfather married two Gould sisters, one after
the first one died). Several of my great aunts, (the Towne sisters)
were victims of the witch hyteria in Topsfield/Salem. Being spiritually
off center, at least a bit, is a family tradition. :)

Oh, by the way, as far as the Christmas Carol posted in this thread
goes, few people
probably understand that it's actually saying:

"May you be happy when you die". "Merry" is an adverb for resting, not
an adjective for "gentlemen". Olde English, wouldn't you know?

So Merry Christmas to you, Jim H. Just don't be so sure that pine tree
in your livingroom is a holy, (or wholly) Christian symbol. :-)

And, let that teach you to ask a simple question of Chuck!

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

On 3 Dec 2005 19:50:56 -0800, wrote:


I believe in a lot of things. One of those things is that the
collection of books assembled in Nicea in something like the 3rd or 4th
Century to comprise the volume we commonly call "The Bible" (a word
that shares a Greek word that means "library") today was selected by a
group of (mostly) well intentioned priests, clergymen, and highly
placed church politicians. Some of the people on the committee
obviously had some extremely sincere motivations, but it was ludicrous
for people to sit and vote on whether or not the Gospel of Mary, the
Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas, or other texts used by the
Christian churches for the first few hundred years were the "word of
God", or not.

God undoubtedly speaks to a lot of different people in a lot of
different ways, an no mortal person could ever hope to accurately
reduce Godspeak to a human language. Do I believe that the Bible
contains a group of books written by people who believe that God spoke
to them and said "X........."? Yes. Do I believe that there are other
"divinely inspired" books that aren't included in the Bible? Yes. Many
of those books aren't even of Christian or Jewish origin.

So do I believe in the Bible? Of course. I have unassailable evidence
that the Bible exists.:-)

While I don't belong to any church, there is a fairly progressive
congregation in my neighborhood where I am welcome to attend (without
obligation to join or profess anything specific) and I have been known
to do so. I'm a sincere monotheist, who believes that polytheism
celebrates various "aspects" of a divine cosmic consciousness.. I
believe that the soul is energy, and cannot be destroyed, so I have no
real problem with eternal life. If I were to have an extended religious
discussion with a fundamentalist Christian, we would probably be
surprised at the number of things we agree on. However, my personal
faith doesn't fit "between the lines" and it would be hypocritical, as
well as inaccurate, to describe myself as any sort of "Christian" you
would be likely to recognize. :-)

But I come from a long line of independent thinkers and
non-conformists. One of my ancestral cousins, Joseph Smith, was a
founder of the Mormon Church. (His grandmother was a Gould from my
lineage. In fact, his grandfather married two Gould sisters, one after
the first one died). Several of my great aunts, (the Towne sisters)
were victims of the witch hyteria in Topsfield/Salem. Being spiritually
off center, at least a bit, is a family tradition. :)

Oh, by the way, as far as the Christmas Carol posted in this thread
goes, few people
probably understand that it's actually saying:

"May you be happy when you die". "Merry" is an adverb for resting, not
an adjective for "gentlemen". Olde English, wouldn't you know?

So Merry Christmas to you, Jim H. Just don't be so sure that pine tree
in your livingroom is a holy, (or wholly) Christian symbol. :-)

Chuck, have a lot of people made fun of your activities or beliefs?

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 19:50:56 -0800, wrote:


I believe in a lot of things. One of those things is that the
collection of books assembled in Nicea in something like the 3rd or 4th
Century to comprise the volume we commonly call "The Bible" (a word
that shares a Greek word that means "library") today was selected by a
group of (mostly) well intentioned priests, clergymen, and highly
placed church politicians. Some of the people on the committee
obviously had some extremely sincere motivations, but it was ludicrous
for people to sit and vote on whether or not the Gospel of Mary, the
Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas, or other texts used by the
Christian churches for the first few hundred years were the "word of
God", or not.

God undoubtedly speaks to a lot of different people in a lot of
different ways, an no mortal person could ever hope to accurately
reduce Godspeak to a human language. Do I believe that the Bible
contains a group of books written by people who believe that God spoke
to them and said "X........."? Yes. Do I believe that there are other
"divinely inspired" books that aren't included in the Bible? Yes. Many
of those books aren't even of Christian or Jewish origin.

So do I believe in the Bible? Of course. I have unassailable evidence
that the Bible exists.:-)

While I don't belong to any church, there is a fairly progressive
congregation in my neighborhood where I am welcome to attend (without
obligation to join or profess anything specific) and I have been known
to do so. I'm a sincere monotheist, who believes that polytheism
celebrates various "aspects" of a divine cosmic consciousness.. I
believe that the soul is energy, and cannot be destroyed, so I have no
real problem with eternal life. If I were to have an extended religious
discussion with a fundamentalist Christian, we would probably be
surprised at the number of things we agree on. However, my personal
faith doesn't fit "between the lines" and it would be hypocritical, as
well as inaccurate, to describe myself as any sort of "Christian" you
would be likely to recognize. :-)

But I come from a long line of independent thinkers and
non-conformists. One of my ancestral cousins, Joseph Smith, was a
founder of the Mormon Church. (His grandmother was a Gould from my
lineage. In fact, his grandfather married two Gould sisters, one after
the first one died). Several of my great aunts, (the Towne sisters)
were victims of the witch hyteria in Topsfield/Salem. Being spiritually
off center, at least a bit, is a family tradition. :)

Oh, by the way, as far as the Christmas Carol posted in this thread
goes, few people
probably understand that it's actually saying:

"May you be happy when you die". "Merry" is an adverb for resting, not
an adjective for "gentlemen". Olde English, wouldn't you know?

So Merry Christmas to you, Jim H. Just don't be so sure that pine tree
in your livingroom is a holy, (or wholly) Christian symbol. :-)

Chuck, have a lot of people made fun of your activities or beliefs?

--
John H

Of course. It's something that everybody experiences. Heck, take this
NG for example......

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

On 4 Dec 2005 08:40:24 -0800, wrote:



Of course. It's something that everybody experiences. Heck, take this
NG for example......

I try not to put down a person's religious beliefs or customs. Any
reason you didn't respond to this?

John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree, the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.


No offerings are made to a tree. That was an assinine comment, one
that I wouldn't have expected from you.

You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.

And providing food and lodging for the poor, along with other works.


The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?

I am very comfortable with putting a decoration on the top of the
tree. You may call it 'crowning', but it's not a term I've ever heard.

As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?

Do they disagree about the birth of Christ? I thought you said that
the Nativity wasn't mentioned. None of the good news in Iraq is
mentioned in the major media, but that doesn't mean it's not
happening.


The Virgin Birth story was added about 150-200 AD. Specifically to
allow Christianity to compete with the worship of Mithras. Funny thing,
at least to me, is that the most important story in the New Testament
has to be the Resurrection. (All four gospels mention that, right?). I
would think that the Easter story is diminished in importance if Jesus
were a supernatural being. IOW, "A supernatural being has the power to
rise from the dead." Now, put forth the theory that a loving divinity
makes it possible for common, garden-variety mortals to be saved,
through faith, from death and achieve some sort of "eternal life" and
you've actually got a bigger miracle to celebrate. Again, that's just
my opinion.


You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you say, that's just your
opinion.

Is there a religious passage somewhere that says, "Go thou, chop down
a tree, bring it into your home, and make offereings unto it?" Nah,
probably not. In fact, I sort of recall that Jehovah was might upset
when some of his followers were venerating a golden calf.
It ain't that far from a calf to a tree.

Probably no passage saying same.

So what? There is no passage saying, "Buy thyself a boat and cruise
Puget Sound," You do it because you enjoy it. People put Christmas
trees in their homes because they enjoy them. For many, decorating the
tree is a family get-together time that is most enjoyable.


And I have no problem with people putting up a tree. When I go boating,
I don't pretend it's a religious observance. Neither should people
putting up a tree, unless they practice a religion that venerates
trees.

Well gee! Thanks for not having a problem with my Christmas tree. The
putting up of the tree is *part* of our observance of Christmas. I'm
pretending nothing.

And, the tree provides a centerpiece for the electric train going
round and round its base.


I guess the above met with your approval? No derogatory comments?

Oh, and take a good close look at that holly and mistletoe while you're
at it. :-)

Holly provides a decorative touch on the fireplace mantel. Intermixed
with candles, lights, and other decorations it adds to the Christmas
cheer.

This was OK also?


Can anybody who considers Christmas a Christian and religious holiday
offer a good explanation for the inculsion of a venerated tree? I'd be
fascinated to see it attempted.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

...and because we like them. They provide a nice gathering spot for
family and friends and for the opening of gifts on Christmas morning.

Nothing wrong here either?


It's a shame you miss out on one of the great pleasures of life -
watching the grandchildren opening their presents by the Christmas
tree.

Have you ever watched your grandkids opening presents by the Christmas
tree, Chuck?

If not, you've missed out on a lot of joy.




--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:57:58 -0600, Skipper wrote:

Pretty good advice to the NG:


Only from a dogmatic position. Reminds me of the bumper sticker I saw
the other day.... "I worship the God that Jesus worshiped." Pretty
hard to take for an anti-Semite... right?

It is especially hard to take, for some, when the same God that Jesus
worshipped, is the same God that the Muslims pray and worship.

Now that's really funny!

Jim C.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
Jim,
I've made that point before and ended up with bank stares. Here is
another of my favorite questions...... "If you did NOT consider any of
those people adhering to a religion with the root god, yahweh, who
would be at war?"
Facts:
33% of the world (dropping) is christian
19% of the world (increasing) is moslem
1% of the world (no significant change) is jewish
the other 47% are pretty peace loving.
Another fact is that the only groups of all the world's religions that
*is* growing is the groups of moslems..... which we know are
definitely war-like. So much for yahweh and peace and love....
http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Thanks Gene, for being a clear headed thinker. You are like a breath of
fresh air in this cluttered group of people.

Jim C.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 01:15:35 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

If not,
then, well, fly, vinegar, jar...... I guess.....

=============================

You lost me with that one.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 01:15:35 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

If not,
then, well, fly, vinegar, jar...... I guess.....

=============================

You lost me with that one.

A fly that's spent it's whole life in a jar of vinegar thinks it's the sweetest
place in the world. (or something like that)

-rick-

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 06:39:18 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:57:58 -0600, Skipper wrote:

Pretty good advice to the NG:


Only from a dogmatic position. Reminds me of the bumper sticker I saw
the other day.... "I worship the God that Jesus worshiped." Pretty
hard to take for an anti-Semite... right?



I haven't seen that one. I like the one that says:

"Judaism: Good enough for Jesus, good enough for me."

Harry, when you attend the solemn high mass with your friends on Christmas day, will you be sure and
tell them that their religion stinks?

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you peace, fellowship, and good humor as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
 

JohnH,
I can accept people not accepting anyone else's religion, but I do find it
funny that this person who views Christianity as a myth would want to get
out and attend Christmas Mass.


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 06:39:18 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:57:58 -0600, Skipper wrote:

Pretty good advice to the NG:


Only from a dogmatic position. Reminds me of the bumper sticker I saw
the other day.... "I worship the God that Jesus worshiped." Pretty
hard to take for an anti-Semite... right?



I haven't seen that one. I like the one that says:

"Judaism: Good enough for Jesus, good enough for me."

Harry, when you attend the solemn high mass with your friends on Christmas
day, will you be sure and
tell them that their religion stinks?

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you peace, fellowship, and good humor as we celebrate the birth of
our Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.