KMAN:

I was wondering why I couldn't find your original posts on my newsreader
yesterday, and I have realized that it was because I plonked you in my
bitbucket a long time ago preceisely because of your willful insistence
on misrepresenting what other people say. As I pointed out below, NO ONE
has said that you need professional instruction. In fact, I wasn't even
talking about instruction as much as your apparent desire to progress in
learning as slowly as possible. You won't address what I said at all,
and unlike Mike, I don't really get any thrills out of fencing with you, so
PLONK.

Steve


KMAN wrote:
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

Who ever said such a thing? Could you please quote that post? Mike has
been pretty clear that instruction is a good thing, and you have been
pretty clear on the opposite sentiment, that it's better to figure out
things on your own.

In another thread you said "The common assumption is often that learning
is something to rush through in order to arrive at enjoyment. Well, if you
like sex that last about 30 seconds, then I guess that's the right
philosophy! Personally I find the journey is just as important as the
destination, and that goes for paddling too :-) " and "Learning is
exciting. The problem is some people think it is something to
avoid or get past as quickly as possible. "

That's rather far from my ideas. I'll suggest a couple a things that I
believe, that you apparently don't.

1. Knowledge and skill are beter than ignorance. We begin every new
activity in a state of ignorance. Most people do in fact choose to get
past that state fairly rapidly, because...

2. Activities pursued skillfully are more fun than those pursued clumsily.
This is certainly true for boating. Being able to place the boat where you
want it, to play, to surf: that's great fun. More fun than just floating
down the river because you don't know how to paddle skillfully.


You are falling into the same trap of assuming that learners who do not hire
professionals to teach them are incapable of advancing beyond floating down
the river. Thus my participation in this thread, as this is wholly untrue.


"Learning is exciting," you say, which is certainly true, but then you say
"some people think it is something to avoid or get past as quickly as
possible." You NEVER get past learning. All the same, I can't imagine
anyone saying, as you seem to, "I'm in no hurry to get skillful; I'd like
to remain ignorant and clumsy as long as possible."


I've said no such thing. I've been trying to explain that people can and to
become skillful without professional instructino. I think I've been pretty
clear about that. Maybe take a read through again.


I'm not criticizing you for that belief, just pointing out that I think
you're in a distinct minority. Certainly the people who come to me don't
think so. In fact, many have said things like "I had been paddling on my
own for along time and didn't seem to be making much progress, but this
class showed me how to improve."


I can believe that. Because, sadly, our society has become rather dependent
on structured learning and many people have lost the ability to learn on
their own.


3. Activities pursued skillfully are safer than those pursued clumsily.


Agreed.


You are clearly concerned with safety, so this should be persuasive even
if the earlier comments weren't. The more challenging the water, the more
important this point is. If you're content with a protracted, casual
learning progress, you limit the number of places you can go safely. Of
course, if you don't want to do challenging water, that's fine, but don't
denigrate people who do want to develop skills to get on something like
the Chatooga. As someone said earlier "There are lots of rivers out there
and not much time to enjoy them."


You are missing the point again. All I am saying is it is possible to become
skillful without professional instruction.


BTW, earlier you called me "a professional who isn't an asshole" (which
may be one of the sweeter things ever said to me on Usenet), but I'm not
really a professional, even though I do receive money for classes
sometimes. I'm not really a super expert paddler, either. Mainly what I am
is an inveterate, incorrigible instructor. People who paddle with me get
instruction even if they aren't paying for it. I just can't help myself.
You probably don't want to paddle with me.


Not if you give me instruction when I haven't asked for it. Otherwise, no
problem.

And I still don't think you are an asshole, but you have done a terrible job
of interpreting my position, and unfortunately, you may also be a victim of
our over-structured culture where you sincerely believe that people cannot
be proficient learners without a professional to teach them.




--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA