On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:04:04 -0400, "P Fritz"
wrote:


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .
On 5 Oct 2005 10:05:15 -0700, wrote:


DSK wrote:
P Fritz wrote:

The typical arrogance of the brain dead liebral is once again on
display
"It's very likely that I am far
better informed of what is *really* going on than you are."


Is it brain-dead or arrogant to have posted plain fact and proven many
right-wingers here to be wrong, and yet none of them has ever once...
not the first time... proven any of the facts I post to be incorrect?

Is it arrogant or brain-dead to continually proclaim oneself always
right, and smarter than "the other guys" when you are in fact the one
who is always wrong?


And they wonder why they keep losing elections?


I've never lost an election once.

BTW the subject here is BOATS. Do you have a boat?

DSK

Fritz's powers are waning, he doesn't have JimH's ass to stick his nose
in for nourishment. He'll take to someone else, like NOYB soon.

Kevin, did you know that anal fixation and narcissistic personality
disorder are
closely related?

Did you show those web sites to an adult as I asked you?

Power? in a NG................ROTFLMAO....................

And kevin wonders why he is still "the King" ??????

Be careful, kevin will be ****ed that you called him a king instead of an
emperor.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:16:48 -0400, "Jeff Rigby" wrote:


"P Fritz" wrote in message
...
The typical arrogance of the brain dead liebral is once again on display
"It's very likely that I am far
better informed of what is *really* going on than you are."

And they wonder why they keep losing elections?

DSK is well informed but tends to give weight to arguments that are the
exception rather than look at the whole. For example his response to my
Statement about NCLB was that certain students were left out of the figures,
he didn't mention that some districts are also encourging dropouts to
improve test scores. This was mentioned in the CSPAN coverage of the NCLB
act. He obviously watched it (or selected parts from a biased news network)
but came out of it with a totally different impression than I did. I
actually heard many say that it's working regardless of some districts being
under so much pressure to perform that they cheat.

That's an interesting thought, did he see it in it's entirety or just
selected parts from a biased new media????? Hmmm.


Most likely, based on his comments, the latter.

He seems to find no problems with getting only half the story.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:05:25 -0400, "Starbuck's Words of Wisdom"
wrote:

John,
I have to disagree with you on this one, Kevin's problem is FAS, Kevin and
brother both suffer from it. Kevin's anal fixation is nothing more than
Kevin trying his best to emulate his hero. He definitely does not suffer
from NPD, he is very insecure and it comes through in most of his posts.
Harry actually believes the crap he posts.


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .
On 5 Oct 2005 10:05:15 -0700, wrote:


DSK wrote:
P Fritz wrote:

The typical arrogance of the brain dead liebral is once again on
display
"It's very likely that I am far
better informed of what is *really* going on than you are."


Is it brain-dead or arrogant to have posted plain fact and proven many
right-wingers here to be wrong, and yet none of them has ever once...
not the first time... proven any of the facts I post to be incorrect?

Is it arrogant or brain-dead to continually proclaim oneself always
right, and smarter than "the other guys" when you are in fact the one
who is always wrong?


And they wonder why they keep losing elections?


I've never lost an election once.

BTW the subject here is BOATS. Do you have a boat?

DSK

Fritz's powers are waning, he doesn't have JimH's ass to stick his nose
in for nourishment. He'll take to someone else, like NOYB soon.

Kevin, did you know that anal fixation and narcissistic personality
disorder are
closely related?

Did you show those web sites to an adult as I asked you?

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's
just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan


I defer to your expertise. I can see that you've been trying to help both
individuals. I've even noticed better language from Kevin lately, so you're on
the right track.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

JohnH,
I am doing the best I can. I do not really have a Dr. Dr. degree, so I will
make a mistake every now and then.


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:05:25 -0400, "Starbuck's Words of Wisdom"
wrote:

John,
I have to disagree with you on this one, Kevin's problem is FAS, Kevin and
brother both suffer from it. Kevin's anal fixation is nothing more than
Kevin trying his best to emulate his hero. He definitely does not suffer
from NPD, he is very insecure and it comes through in most of his posts.
Harry actually believes the crap he posts.


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
. ..
On 5 Oct 2005 10:05:15 -0700, wrote:


DSK wrote:
P Fritz wrote:

The typical arrogance of the brain dead liebral is once again on
display
"It's very likely that I am far
better informed of what is *really* going on than you are."


Is it brain-dead or arrogant to have posted plain fact and proven many
right-wingers here to be wrong, and yet none of them has ever once...
not the first time... proven any of the facts I post to be incorrect?

Is it arrogant or brain-dead to continually proclaim oneself always
right, and smarter than "the other guys" when you are in fact the one
who is always wrong?


And they wonder why they keep losing elections?


I've never lost an election once.

BTW the subject here is BOATS. Do you have a boat?

DSK

Fritz's powers are waning, he doesn't have JimH's ass to stick his nose
in for nourishment. He'll take to someone else, like NOYB soon.

Kevin, did you know that anal fixation and narcissistic personality
disorder are
closely related?

Did you show those web sites to an adult as I asked you?

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's
just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan


I defer to your expertise. I can see that you've been trying to help both
individuals. I've even noticed better language from Kevin lately, so
you're on
the right track.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's
just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:05:46 -0400, DSK wrote:

Jeff Rigby wrote:
DSK is well informed

Thanks


... but tends to give weight to arguments that are the
exception rather than look at the whole.

Which is still better (if it were true) than simply making stuff up.


... For example his response to my
Statement about NCLB was that certain students were left out of the figures,
he didn't mention that some districts are also encourging dropouts to
improve test scores.

Which is more common?

... This was mentioned in the CSPAN coverage of the NCLB
act. He obviously watched it (or selected parts from a biased news network)
but came out of it with a totally different impression than I did.

Actually, I skimmed it on the internet. Marvelous invention.

... I
actually heard many say that it's working regardless of some districts being
under so much pressure to perform that they cheat.


???
Better think this over one more time... the program is working so well
that some school districts are holding kids back from taking the tests,
and others are cheating... yep it's working!


That's an interesting thought, did he see it in it's entirety or just
selected parts from a biased new media????? Hmmm.


Neither.

DSK

The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?

I suppose laws against murder are bad because some people commit murder.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

PocoLoco wrote:
The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?


And you pretend to teach math?
I hope you don't think this would pass for "logic"

Let's see... without the law there would be no need to cheat on the test
because the test wouldn't exist. Instead of devoting resources to
passing the Federally mandated tests (by means either fair or foul) then
the schools could devote their resources to teaching what the parents &
local school boards decide.

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.


I suppose laws against murder are bad because some people commit murder.


Let's see, did people commit murder before there were laws against it?
Does the law make the murder possible in the first place? Where exactly
is this any kind of remotely analogous comparison?

Think

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
PocoLoco wrote:
The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?


And you pretend to teach math?
I hope you don't think this would pass for "logic"

Let's see... without the law there would be no need to cheat on the test
because the test wouldn't exist. Instead of devoting resources to passing
the Federally mandated tests (by means either fair or foul) then the
schools could devote their resources to teaching what the parents & local
school boards decide.

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.


The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure to
perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the schools
would be with no NCLB act.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these skills,
that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching basic
skills like math and reading.

The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the exclusion
of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as those coming up
thru the school system will have those skills before they reach high school.
I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if they don't have them.
They are a necessary building block for future academics.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.



Jeff Rigby wrote:
The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure to
perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the schools
would be with no NCLB act.


1- it isn't established for certain that the majority are performing
2- it is very far from established that the test standards are closely
related to worthwhile educational goals
3- it is very definitely established that the schools are losing
resources to the demands of constant testing
4- it is very definitely established that it is far more difficult to
hire teachers

Now for the questions which require actual thought

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed
control of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting
the teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically
Democrat- in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward
mobility, thus increasing the stratification of the US?

Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these skills,

Well, it's big question as to whether you prefer rote memorization &
regurgitation of standardized material to a more complex form of
learning. Nothing wrong with memorization.

that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching basic
skills like math and reading.


Umm do you think there's *not* another agenda?

Sort of liek, do you think that President Bush *really* intends to try &
outlaw abortion and gay marriage? If he actually did that, how could he
rally the faithful at the next election?


The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the exclusion
of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as those coming up
thru the school system will have those skills before they reach high school.
I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if they don't have them.
They are a necessary building block for future academics.


Agreed. But 1- I don't think the NCLB is actually "working" anywhere
near as well as it's boosters claim and 2- it makes me very uneasy to
have the Federal gov't simply take control of a previously locally
controlled and locally funded community asset.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, being neither a teacher or a
parent. But it's interesting to observe the way this mind-control
program has been developed and approved by the very people who screamed
bloody murder at any previous attempt to Federally regulate schools.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.



Jeff Rigby wrote:
The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure
to perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the
schools would be with no NCLB act.


1- it isn't established for certain that the majority are performing
2- it is very far from established that the test standards are closely
related to worthwhile educational goals
3- it is very definitely established that the schools are losing resources
to the demands of constant testing
4- it is very definitely established that it is far more difficult to hire
teachers

Now for the questions which require actual thought

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed control
of local school curriculums at all grade levels?
To the extent that they require passing a basic skills test to get Federal
money yes. How do you feel about a school not getting accreditation?

If the school system was doing a good job then the impact of the Fed
government would be a couple of hours a year. In the schools I attended 1/2
the class would pass the FCAT test (Floridas version of the Fed requirement)
without any remedial lesson plans. After being shocked by the statement
that you won't get a diploma unless you can pass the test, a further 20%
would be able to pass the test ( a reason for paying attention in class)
without remedial lesson plans.

The point is that the schools are now serious about education.


Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting the
teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically Democrat-
in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward mobility,
thus increasing the stratification of the US?

Far right wing???? Gesh. I'm for it, have been for it for 20 years, way
before it was picked up as a "cause" by the Republican party. We've been
trying to get testing adopted here for that long and always blocked by the
unions. I believe in TESTING, both teachers and students. The Teachers
union does not as that can point out performance problems (teachers NOT
doing their job).

That it undercuts a union that is "monolithically democrat" points to a
problem in the DEMOCRAT mind set! Can't you see that?

Reducing educational competition, far from it as it gives a common standard
where all may be judged on their performance and encourages competition.
Nothing stifles competition more than a non-objective standard for
evaluating performance.

How does it stop upward mobility unless you are assuming that minoritys are
given a pass under the old system. There will always be stratification, I
prefer one based on ability and performance not who you know and what party
you belong to.

Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these
skills,

Well, it's big question as to whether you prefer rote memorization &
regurgitation of standardized material to a more complex form of learning.
Nothing wrong with memorization.

that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching
basic skills like math and reading.


Umm do you think there's *not* another agenda?

Sort of liek, do you think that President Bush *really* intends to try &
outlaw abortion and gay marriage? If he actually did that, how could he
rally the faithful at the next election?


The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the
exclusion of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as
those coming up thru the school system will have those skills before they
reach high school. I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if
they don't have them. They are a necessary building block for future
academics.

Agreed. But 1- I don't think the NCLB is actually "working" anywhere near
as well as it's boosters claim and 2- it makes me very uneasy to have the
Federal gov't simply take control of a previously locally controlled and
locally funded community asset.

It's working, as to how well that's debateable. I'm sure there could be a
better system but it couldn't get thru the "DOG FIGHT" we all had in
congress. It's a start though and past due.

Take control of the local schools? Again what got thru congress was to test
basic reading and math skills....those should be apolitical for Gods sake.


I don't really have a dog in this fight, being neither a teacher or a
parent. But it's interesting to observe the way this mind-control program
has been developed and approved by the very people who screamed bloody
murder at any previous attempt to Federally regulate schools.

DSK

Mind control? Hmm, teaching math mind control....must be the logic
connection that math needs. You seem to fear that children will learn to
put two and two together and that will cause them to vote Republican.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:42:59 -0400, DSK wrote:

PocoLoco wrote:
The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?


And you pretend to teach math?
I hope you don't think this would pass for "logic"

Let's see... without the law there would be no need to cheat on the test
because the test wouldn't exist. Instead of devoting resources to
passing the Federally mandated tests (by means either fair or foul) then
the schools could devote their resources to teaching what the parents &
local school boards decide.

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.

Ah, now I see. Before this law there was no cheating. Your lack of knowledge
about educational institutions is showing.



I suppose laws against murder are bad because some people commit murder.


Let's see, did people commit murder before there were laws against it?
Does the law make the murder possible in the first place? Where exactly
is this any kind of remotely analogous comparison?

Think

DSK


--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 06:49:49 -0400, DSK wrote:

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.



Jeff Rigby wrote:
The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure to
perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the schools
would be with no NCLB act.


1- it isn't established for certain that the majority are performing
2- it is very far from established that the test standards are closely
related to worthwhile educational goals
3- it is very definitely established that the schools are losing
resources to the demands of constant testing
4- it is very definitely established that it is far more difficult to
hire teachers

Now for the questions which require actual thought

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed
control of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting
the teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically
Democrat- in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward
mobility, thus increasing the stratification of the US?

Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these skills,

Well, it's big question as to whether you prefer rote memorization &
regurgitation of standardized material to a more complex form of
learning. Nothing wrong with memorization.

that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching basic
skills like math and reading.


Umm do you think there's *not* another agenda?

Sort of liek, do you think that President Bush *really* intends to try &
outlaw abortion and gay marriage? If he actually did that, how could he
rally the faithful at the next election?


The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the exclusion
of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as those coming up
thru the school system will have those skills before they reach high school.
I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if they don't have them.
They are a necessary building block for future academics.


Agreed. But 1- I don't think the NCLB is actually "working" anywhere
near as well as it's boosters claim and 2- it makes me very uneasy to
have the Federal gov't simply take control of a previously locally
controlled and locally funded community asset.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, being neither a teacher or a
parent. But it's interesting to observe the way this mind-control
program has been developed and approved by the very people who screamed
bloody murder at any previous attempt to Federally regulate schools.

DSK

You can spew horse **** faster than most.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed control
of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Jeff Rigby wrote:
To the extent that they require passing a basic skills test to get Federal
money yes. How do you feel about a school not getting accreditation?


Depends on whose accreditation and what it entails. If I were a parent
concerned with my child's education, that would be just one small item
on a list of concerns.

If the school system was doing a good job then the impact of the Fed
government would be a couple of hours a year.

"If the school was doing a good job" of teaching the exact test curriculum.


... In the schools I attended 1/2
the class would pass the FCAT test (Floridas version of the Fed requirement)
without any remedial lesson plans. After being shocked by the statement
that you won't get a diploma unless you can pass the test, a further 20%
would be able to pass the test ( a reason for paying attention in class)
without remedial lesson plans.

Well, they weren't very far behind, and at least they saw some value in
receiving a diploma.


The point is that the schools are now serious about education.


No, the point is that schools are serious about grabbing Federal money
and making the kids jump thru hoops so they can get it.


Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting the
teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically Democrat-
in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward mobility,
thus increasing the stratification of the US?


Far right wing???? Gesh. I'm for it, have been for it for 20 years, way
before it was picked up as a "cause" by the Republican party. We've been
trying to get testing adopted here for that long and always blocked by the
unions. I believe in TESTING, both teachers and students. The Teachers
union does not as that can point out performance problems (teachers NOT
doing their job).


So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.


That it undercuts a union that is "monolithically democrat" points to a
problem in the DEMOCRAT mind set! Can't you see that?


No, because it's not the problem unless you are determined that "the
best thing" is a monolithic Republican hegemony.

Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.




... There will always be stratification, I
prefer one based on ability and performance not who you know and what party
you belong to.


Seems to me that the Republican goal is the exact opposite... economic &
political stratification based on who your parents are, rather than any
natural ability.



Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.


It's working, as to how well that's debateable. I'm sure there could be a
better system but it couldn't get thru the "DOG FIGHT" we all had in
congress. It's a start though and past due.


Agreed, except that it's a start in the wrong direction and under the
wrong principles. Kind of like the way the "prescription drug benefit"
is a start, except that it's really just corporate welfare for the drug
companies (who are already immensely profitable).




Mind control? Hmm, teaching math mind control....must be the logic
connection that math needs. You seem to fear that children will learn to
put two and two together and that will cause them to vote Republican.


Possibly, but I think the real fear on the part of pro-Bush Republicans
is that if you teach kids history & economics, they will certainly NOT
vote for any activist Christian "neo-conservative."

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed control
of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Jeff Rigby wrote:
To the extent that they require passing a basic skills test to get
Federal money yes. How do you feel about a school not getting
accreditation?


Depends on whose accreditation and what it entails. If I were a parent
concerned with my child's education, that would be just one small item on
a list of concerns.

If the school system was doing a good job then the impact of the Fed
government would be a couple of hours a year.

"If the school was doing a good job" of teaching the exact test
curriculum.


... In the schools I attended 1/2 the class would pass the FCAT test
(Floridas version of the Fed requirement) without any remedial lesson
plans. After being shocked by the statement that you won't get a diploma
unless you can pass the test, a further 20% would be able to pass the
test ( a reason for paying attention in class) without remedial lesson
plans.

Well, they weren't very far behind, and at least they saw some value in
receiving a diploma.


The point is that the schools are now serious about education.


No, the point is that schools are serious about grabbing Federal money and
making the kids jump thru hoops so they can get it.


Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting the
teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically Democrat-
in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward mobility,
thus increasing the stratification of the US?


Far right wing???? Gesh. I'm for it, have been for it for 20 years, way
before it was picked up as a "cause" by the Republican party. We've been
trying to get testing adopted here for that long and always blocked by
the unions. I believe in TESTING, both teachers and students. The
Teachers union does not as that can point out performance problems
(teachers NOT doing their job).


So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.

The teachers I've talked to were in favor of testing, the union is the only
one that has been consistently against testing. The teachers are split
about 50/50 on the current plan, the ones who voiced disfavor didn't like
having to teach to the test. It made the curriculm too narrow in their
view.


That it undercuts a union that is "monolithically democrat" points to a
problem in the DEMOCRAT mind set! Can't you see that?


No, because it's not the problem unless you are determined that "the best
thing" is a monolithic Republican hegemony.

I have consistently said that we need a two party system. For any
organization to monolithic is to be inbred and without imagination.

Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.

Threatining????? Withholding the carrot is threatining. Wow, Doctor Spock
rears his ugly head again. Haven't you heard, most professionals have
repudiated his methods.


... There will always be stratification, I prefer one based on ability
and performance not who you know and what party you belong to.


Seems to me that the Republican goal is the exact opposite... economic &
political stratification based on who your parents are, rather than any
natural ability.

Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We LIKE
small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of the pie.
Most small buiness is started by individuals that were not born with a
silver spoon in their mouth. This is in stark contrast with most of the
inherrited wealth in this country belonging to the democrat party.


Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.

Didn't think I needed to. Big government and endless regulation is a
Democrat thing.


It's working, as to how well that's debateable. I'm sure there could be
a better system but it couldn't get thru the "DOG FIGHT" we all had in
congress. It's a start though and past due.


Agreed, except that it's a start in the wrong direction and under the
wrong principles. Kind of like the way the "prescription drug benefit" is
a start, except that it's really just corporate welfare for the drug
companies (who are already immensely profitable).




Mind control? Hmm, teaching math mind control....must be the logic
connection that math needs. You seem to fear that children will learn to
put two and two together and that will cause them to vote Republican.

Possibly, but I think the real fear on the part of pro-Bush Republicans is
that if you teach kids history & economics, they will certainly NOT vote
for any activist Christian "neo-conservative."

And I hope the Democrats won't force me to vote for one as the lesser of two
evils either. That's no joke.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
The teachers I've talked to were in favor of testing, the union is the only
one that has been consistently against testing.

That depends on how you word the question, as always. Relatively few
teachers, including union ones, are against testing their students.
However most... more nearly all... teacher are against being handed an
extensive blueprint for material that they must teach the kids by rote,
enforced by frequent & exhaustive testing.

For one thing, giving tests every month or so uses up a lot of class time.




... The teachers are split
about 50/50 on the current plan

Hmm, you must live in a really pro-Bush/Cheney area. The teacher I know
are about 80% against the current NCLB plan, with about half of those
against being very vocal & demonstrative... and about 10% of the
pro-NCLB teachers saying things like 'it's not as bad as they say' or
'it could be worse.' What excellent praise, you can see why I hold the
views I have.



... the ones who voiced disfavor didn't like
having to teach to the test. It made the curriculm too narrow in their
view.


Yep. And pretty much all the teachers I have discussed the issue with
say that this is *all* they have time to teach.



I have consistently said that we need a two party system. For any
organization to monolithic is to be inbred and without imagination.


Possibly so, but any organiztion that is consistantly attacked will
unite against it's attacker.


Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.


Threatining????? Withholding the carrot is threatining.

Is being fired, and losing your state license (with the very high
probability of being unable to get a license in any other of these
United States, since NCLB is Federal) "withholding the carrot?"

... Wow, Doctor Spock
rears his ugly head again. Haven't you heard, most professionals have
repudiated his methods.


???







Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We LIKE
small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of the pie.

Really? Like no-bid contracts?


Most small buiness is started by individuals that were not born with a
silver spoon in their mouth. This is in stark contrast with most of the
inherrited wealth in this country belonging to the democrat party.


???

Interesting view of the Democrats... I suppose George W. Bush Jr was
born poor and fought his way to the top on his own merit? I suppose he
worked hard at a small business and made it a success?


Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.


Didn't think I needed to. Big government and endless regulation is a
Democrat thing.


Except in cases where Republicans are pushing the agenda, like the
Homeland Security Dept and the NCLB and a few other examples.

Better wake up and smell the coffee, next thing you know you'll be
saying how the Democrats are fiscally irresponsible...




And I hope the Democrats won't force me to vote for one as the lesser of two
evils either. That's no joke.


Agreed. I hope you take a close look at your principles and see which
party is following them more closely.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 12:00:17 -0400, DSK wrote:

So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
The teachers I've talked to were in favor of testing, the union is the only
one that has been consistently against testing.

That depends on how you word the question, as always. Relatively few
teachers, including union ones, are against testing their students.
However most... more nearly all... teacher are against being handed an
extensive blueprint for material that they must teach the kids by rote,
enforced by frequent & exhaustive testing.

For one thing, giving tests every month or so uses up a lot of class time.




... The teachers are split
about 50/50 on the current plan

Hmm, you must live in a really pro-Bush/Cheney area. The teacher I know
are about 80% against the current NCLB plan, with about half of those
against being very vocal & demonstrative... and about 10% of the
pro-NCLB teachers saying things like 'it's not as bad as they say' or
'it could be worse.' What excellent praise, you can see why I hold the
views I have.



... the ones who voiced disfavor didn't like
having to teach to the test. It made the curriculm too narrow in their
view.


Yep. And pretty much all the teachers I have discussed the issue with
say that this is *all* they have time to teach.



I have consistently said that we need a two party system. For any
organization to monolithic is to be inbred and without imagination.


Possibly so, but any organiztion that is consistantly attacked will
unite against it's attacker.


Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.


Threatining????? Withholding the carrot is threatining.

Is being fired, and losing your state license (with the very high
probability of being unable to get a license in any other of these
United States, since NCLB is Federal) "withholding the carrot?"

... Wow, Doctor Spock
rears his ugly head again. Haven't you heard, most professionals have
repudiated his methods.


???







Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We LIKE
small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of the pie.

Really? Like no-bid contracts?


Most small buiness is started by individuals that were not born with a
silver spoon in their mouth. This is in stark contrast with most of the
inherrited wealth in this country belonging to the democrat party.


???

Interesting view of the Democrats... I suppose George W. Bush Jr was
born poor and fought his way to the top on his own merit? I suppose he
worked hard at a small business and made it a success?


Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.


Didn't think I needed to. Big government and endless regulation is a
Democrat thing.


Except in cases where Republicans are pushing the agenda, like the
Homeland Security Dept and the NCLB and a few other examples.

Better wake up and smell the coffee, next thing you know you'll be
saying how the Democrats are fiscally irresponsible...




And I hope the Democrats won't force me to vote for one as the lesser of two
evils either. That's no joke.


Agreed. I hope you take a close look at your principles and see which
party is following them more closely.

DSK

We've been through discussion before. You quit when I pointed you to the
Virginia Standards of Learning and asked you to show me the problems therein.

On the one hand you say 'the curriculum is too narrow'. On the other hand you
say teachers have no time to teach anything but the test. How do you rationalize
those two statements?

A broader curriculum, and a test broader in scope, would require more time.

Schools should be given a set of learning objectives for the students. The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives. The
learning of those objectives should then be tested.

The unions don't like the use of standards and tests because it makes the
identification of incompetent teachers easy.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

PocoLoco wrote:
We've been through discussion before. You quit when I pointed you to the
Virginia Standards of Learning and asked you to show me the problems therein.


Not at all. You began yowling that the fact that Virginia hasn't used up
all it's NCLB funding seemed to prove that President Bush is a visionary
genius and God's gift to public education. No point in further
discussion... in fact I'm not sure there is now, but I've already started.


On the one hand you say 'the curriculum is too narrow'. On the other hand you
say teachers have no time to teach anything but the test. How do you rationalize
those two statements?


Simple. They're true.

A broader curriculum, and a test broader in scope, would require more time.


If the tests were given every few weeks, yeah.


Schools should be given a set of learning objectives for the students.

Agreed.
But not necessarily by the Federal gov't.

I guess this is one case where you welcome a little Federal intrusion,
and a bigger gummint?

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?



The unions don't like the use of standards and tests because it makes the
identification of incompetent teachers easy.

Once again, we come down to political warfare against the teachers,
which is really the whole point of NCLB. Thank you for bringing it up.

What percent of school teachers do you think are "incompetent" John? 1%?
5%? 10%?

How about if we just fire the bottom 15% just to be sure we catch them
all, them make it difficult for the schools to hire replacements? In
addition, let's make school teaching less attractive as a profession so
people will be more motivated by money and less by personal altruism to
enter teaching.

What about the majority of teachers who have done well with their local
curriculums, who are now strapped to the Procrustean bed of NCLB.

I doubt you know what that means, since your standards of education are
so high, so here's a link
http://www.bartleby.com/61/85/P0578500.html

THINK! It may be painful in the short term, but you may find you like
the results.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?

The whole initiative is a joke. Testing is useful for measurement and
ego-boosting, but it doesn't address the real issue as I see it. Kids learn
because they have good examples in their lives. This can include
either/or/and:

- Parents who display a high level of regard for learning, and pay lots of
attention to what their kids are doing in school. Doesn't seem to matter if
we're totally incapable of helping them with calculus - it's the attention
that matters.

- Friends who do I-don't-know-what, other than positive peer influence. Last
spring, my son said he was already overloaded with AP courses, and didn't
want to add AP physics. I goaded him, his counselor poked him, and finally,
he said two of his friends started acting like cheerleaders and he changed
his mind.

I don't think you can get lousy parents to step up to the plate, but there's
probably an imaginative way to incentivize high achieving kids to help
others. Maybe small scholarships in return for tutoring, or something like
that. Or, something more valuable than gold to teenagers: Gift certificates
good at more than one mall.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 15:05:00 -0400, DSK wrote:

PocoLoco wrote:
We've been through discussion before. You quit when I pointed you to the
Virginia Standards of Learning and asked you to show me the problems therein.


Not at all. You began yowling that the fact that Virginia hasn't used up
all it's NCLB funding seemed to prove that President Bush is a visionary
genius and God's gift to public education. No point in further
discussion... in fact I'm not sure there is now, but I've already started.


Wrong. I said no such thing. You immediately start with bull****.

On the one hand you say 'the curriculum is too narrow'. On the other hand you
say teachers have no time to teach anything but the test. How do you rationalize
those two statements?


Simple. They're true.

Whooosh!

A broader curriculum, and a test broader in scope, would require more time.


If the tests were given every few weeks, yeah.

Why would the tests be given every few weeks? Virginia gives the Standards of
Learning test once a year.

Or, are you just injecting more bull****?


Schools should be given a set of learning objectives for the students.

Agreed.
But not necessarily by the Federal gov't.

If the states have learning objectives, which meet the minimal requirements of
the Feds, then they aren't *required* to use the Feds' objectives. Virginia uses
its own.

I guess this is one case where you welcome a little Federal intrusion,
and a bigger gummint?

If it means placing education standards in the states without them, yes.



... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?


More bull****?



The unions don't like the use of standards and tests because it makes the
identification of incompetent teachers easy.

Once again, we come down to political warfare against the teachers,
which is really the whole point of NCLB. Thank you for bringing it up.

I've no idea where that came from. Who is waging the war, the unions? Or is it
just more bull****?


What percent of school teachers do you think are "incompetent" John? 1%?
5%? 10%?

In my school, I'd say it's in the 5% range. Some were weeded out this last year
when they couldn't pass the Praxis. The standards Virginia are quite high, as
far as the Praxis goes. These standards will probably (IMO) be lowered with the
realization that many of the graduates from some of the 'teachers' colleges' in
the state can't meet the requirements.

How about if we just fire the bottom 15% just to be sure we catch them
all, them make it difficult for the schools to hire replacements? In
addition, let's make school teaching less attractive as a profession so
people will be more motivated by money and less by personal altruism to
enter teaching.

More bull****?

What about the majority of teachers who have done well with their local
curriculums, who are now strapped to the Procrustean bed of NCLB.

How do you define 'done well'? Or is this just more bull****?

I doubt you know what that means, since your standards of education are
so high, so here's a link
http://www.bartleby.com/61/85/P0578500.html

Conformity to minimum standards is necessary.

THINK! It may be painful in the short term, but you may find you like
the results.

More bull****?

DSK


--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:21:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
...

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?

The whole initiative is a joke. Testing is useful for measurement and
ego-boosting, but it doesn't address the real issue as I see it. Kids learn
because they have good examples in their lives. This can include
either/or/and:

- Parents who display a high level of regard for learning, and pay lots of
attention to what their kids are doing in school. Doesn't seem to matter if
we're totally incapable of helping them with calculus - it's the attention
that matters.

- Friends who do I-don't-know-what, other than positive peer influence. Last
spring, my son said he was already overloaded with AP courses, and didn't
want to add AP physics. I goaded him, his counselor poked him, and finally,
he said two of his friends started acting like cheerleaders and he changed
his mind.

I don't think you can get lousy parents to step up to the plate, but there's
probably an imaginative way to incentivize high achieving kids to help
others. Maybe small scholarships in return for tutoring, or something like
that. Or, something more valuable than gold to teenagers: Gift certificates
good at more than one mall.


Each year the students here are required to perform a number of community
service hours. The math department has set up a peer tutoring program in which
students can receive credit for their service hours. The program works well, and
many students continue with the tutoring well past the service hour requirement.

Testing isn't a joke. Often it's the only way to get a parent's attention. If
the kids have the good examples, parental and peer support, then the tests to
show minimum competency aren't necessary.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:21:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those
objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?

The whole initiative is a joke. Testing is useful for measurement and
ego-boosting, but it doesn't address the real issue as I see it. Kids
learn
because they have good examples in their lives. This can include
either/or/and:

- Parents who display a high level of regard for learning, and pay lots of
attention to what their kids are doing in school. Doesn't seem to matter
if
we're totally incapable of helping them with calculus - it's the attention
that matters.

- Friends who do I-don't-know-what, other than positive peer influence.
Last
spring, my son said he was already overloaded with AP courses, and didn't
want to add AP physics. I goaded him, his counselor poked him, and
finally,
he said two of his friends started acting like cheerleaders and he changed
his mind.

I don't think you can get lousy parents to step up to the plate, but
there's
probably an imaginative way to incentivize high achieving kids to help
others. Maybe small scholarships in return for tutoring, or something like
that. Or, something more valuable than gold to teenagers: Gift
certificates
good at more than one mall.


Each year the students here are required to perform a number of community
service hours. The math department has set up a peer tutoring program in
which
students can receive credit for their service hours. The program works
well, and
many students continue with the tutoring well past the service hour
requirement.

Testing isn't a joke. Often it's the only way to get a parent's attention.
If
the kids have the good examples, parental and peer support, then the tests
to
show minimum competency aren't necessary.

It's circular anyway. Kids who want to achieve will do so regardless of the
tests. And, sometimes (as I'm sure you know), lousy test results have no
impact on parents. So, we end up with a generation who listens to a certain
politician mangle the language, and they consider it normal.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

PocoLoco wrote:
Wrong. I said no such thing.

(patiently) Yes you did.

... You immediately start with bull****.

What an intelligent and well-reasoned answer.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:36:46 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:21:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those
objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?

The whole initiative is a joke. Testing is useful for measurement and
ego-boosting, but it doesn't address the real issue as I see it. Kids
learn
because they have good examples in their lives. This can include
either/or/and:

- Parents who display a high level of regard for learning, and pay lots of
attention to what their kids are doing in school. Doesn't seem to matter
if
we're totally incapable of helping them with calculus - it's the attention
that matters.

- Friends who do I-don't-know-what, other than positive peer influence.
Last
spring, my son said he was already overloaded with AP courses, and didn't
want to add AP physics. I goaded him, his counselor poked him, and
finally,
he said two of his friends started acting like cheerleaders and he changed
his mind.

I don't think you can get lousy parents to step up to the plate, but
there's
probably an imaginative way to incentivize high achieving kids to help
others. Maybe small scholarships in return for tutoring, or something like
that. Or, something more valuable than gold to teenagers: Gift
certificates
good at more than one mall.


Each year the students here are required to perform a number of community
service hours. The math department has set up a peer tutoring program in
which
students can receive credit for their service hours. The program works
well, and
many students continue with the tutoring well past the service hour
requirement.

Testing isn't a joke. Often it's the only way to get a parent's attention.
If
the kids have the good examples, parental and peer support, then the tests
to
show minimum competency aren't necessary.

It's circular anyway. Kids who want to achieve will do so regardless of the
tests. And, sometimes (as I'm sure you know), lousy test results have no
impact on parents. So, we end up with a generation who listens to a certain
politician mangle the language, and they consider it normal.


Most of those kids aren't watching the news. They're doing MTV or the Simpsons.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:02:48 -0400, DSK wrote:

PocoLoco wrote:
Wrong. I said no such thing.

(patiently) Yes you did.

... You immediately start with bull****.

What an intelligent and well-reasoned answer.

DSK

And accurate.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
The teachers I've talked to were in favor of testing, the union is the
only one that has been consistently against testing.

That depends on how you word the question, as always. Relatively few
teachers, including union ones, are against testing their students.
However most... more nearly all... teacher are against being handed an
extensive blueprint for material that they must teach the kids by rote,
enforced by frequent & exhaustive testing.

For one thing, giving tests every month or so uses up a lot of class time.

... The teachers are split about 50/50 on the current plan

Hmm, you must live in a really pro-Bush/Cheney area. The teacher I know
are about 80% against the current NCLB plan, with about half of those
against being very vocal & demonstrative... and about 10% of the pro-NCLB
teachers saying things like 'it's not as bad as they say' or 'it could be
worse.' What excellent praise, you can see why I hold the views I have.

Teachers views probably differ because of the efforts that have to be taken
to bring their class up to the MINIMUM standard that is required by the
federal test. In my area 50% of the class needed little remedial education
thus the 50/50 figure I quoted. In areas of Florida that are more rural or
in areas of the north (inner cities) the figures would shift to what you
were quoting because they have FAILED their students for years and there is
so much remedial education needed to pass the test that that's all they can
teach.

I can't stress this enough, the federal standard is a MINIMUM requirement
and our schools should be doing much more. The NCLB is like a spotlight
that shines on the regions that are not doing their job.

... the ones who voiced disfavor didn't like having to teach to the test.
It made the curriculm too narrow in their view.


Yep. And pretty much all the teachers I have discussed the issue with say
that this is *all* they have time to teach.



I have consistently said that we need a two party system. For any
organization to monolithic is to be inbred and without imagination.


Possibly so, but any organiztion that is consistantly attacked will unite
against it's attacker.

Yes and it started being attacked 20 years ago because it resisted testing.
Among the more enlightened, testing is a method to determine objectively how
well you are doing and to shift resources to those areas that need it.
Teachers uses test all the time in their class to do this but it's not
supposed to be used to determine how the whole school is doing??? This made
no sense to me and many others. Does it make sense to you? That's why the
union started being attacked, not because it was monolithicly democrat.
That it was monolithicly democrat insured it's short sighted and selfish
(protect the incompetent) policys at the expense of the students during the
years that democrats controlled congress (most of the last 60 years).



Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.


Threatining????? Withholding the carrot is threatining.

Is being fired, and losing your state license (with the very high
probability of being unable to get a license in any other of these United
States, since NCLB is Federal) "withholding the carrot?"

If they can't pass tests that are no more difficult than the tests that
their students have to take they shouldn't be accreditied to teach.

Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We
LIKE small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of
the pie.

Really? Like no-bid contracts? In cases where massive resources (trucks,
cranes, personel) are required and time is of the essence you give the
cotract to the best corp with a proven track record.

Most small buiness is started by individuals that were not born with a
silver spoon in their mouth. This is in stark contrast with most of the
inherrited wealth in this country belonging to the democrat party.


Interesting view of the Democrats... I suppose George W. Bush Jr was born
poor and fought his way to the top on his own merit? I suppose he worked
hard at a small business and made it a success?

Values again and the list of democrats with the spoon in their mouth is
several times longer.


Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.


Didn't think I needed to. Big government and endless regulation is a
Democrat thing.


Except in cases where Republicans are pushing the agenda, like the
Homeland Security Dept and the NCLB and a few other examples.

Better wake up and smell the coffee, next thing you know you'll be saying
how the Democrats are fiscally irresponsible...

Yeah, I don't like the fiscal irresponsibility practiced by this congress.
In Bush we have a mini Reagan who is rubber stamping congress so that he
gets the money he needs for his projects (Iraq). I guess that's needed
since he has to fight on two fronts (a biased press being one of them).


And I hope the Democrats won't force me to vote for one as the lesser of
two evils either. That's no joke.
Agreed. I hope you take a close look at your principles and see which
party is following them more closely.

I constantly do and while many of those principles are only given lip
service by the republicans in power, the democrat party stand in opposition
to them. That's why it's very important that you guys choose a presidential
candidate that holds traditional values.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

Possibly so, but any organiztion that is consistantly attacked will unite
against it's attacker.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
Yes and it started being attacked 20 years ago because it resisted testing.

And it's being attacked now for supporting Democrats.

It's alligator-chomp-style partisan politics, pure and simple.

Actually, I'm glad to hear that NCLB may be doing some good for the
nation's children although I'm still dubious. But you should open your
eyes to the fact that this is primarily a club to beat down the
political influence of teachers unions, and secondarily to gain a
strangelhold on public schools (for the purpose of strangling it, of
course, so that smart poor kids won't be elbowing the well-connected
children out of the way, later in life).



Among the more enlightened, testing is a method to determine objectively how
well you are doing and to shift resources to those areas that need it.

Really? How does NCLB "shift resources to those that need it?" All I've
heard is that those who flunk get fired & lose funding. Great way to
help them bootstrap up! Compassionate conservatism at it's finest...
yank the rug out from under, then kick 'em when they're down.



Is being fired, and losing your state license (with the very high
probability of being unable to get a license in any other of these United
States, since NCLB is Federal) "withholding the carrot?"


If they can't pass tests that are no more difficult than the tests that
their students have to take they shouldn't be accreditied to teach.

Agreed but that's not what's happening. A lot of good teachers are
getting booted, teacher/student ratios are higher than ever, and lots of
people who might have become teachers are giving up the idea. It's a
train wreck.

Here in NC, the governor gave a short speech the other day on the
effects of NCLB and how the state education system is trying to deal
with the worsening shortage of teachers. May not be a problem everywhere.



Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We
LIKE small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of
the pie.

Really? Like no-bid contracts?



... In cases where massive resources (trucks,
cranes, personel) are required and time is of the essence you give the
cotract to the best corp with a proven track record.

What about cases where the company has no assets in the field except
good political connections? What if the company words the contract such
that they can shrug it off, not do a damn thing, and still collect a
percentage? What about cases where the company is given charge of gov't
property, and "loses" it?

All these things are happening, to the tune of hundreds of millions of
our tax dollars. Next time you're watching C-Span, check the Halliburton
investigation. They're on the hook for about 1/2 billion (with a b) in
fraud, non-performance, kick-backs, "lost" inventory, etc etc. And
that's just one company, just what they've been caught at SO FAR. In
most cases, it was military personnel complaining about non-performance
that brought it up.

And another thing, isn't it funny how the "liberal biased media" doesn't
seem to be paying much attention to this.

Yep, it's a meritocracy all right. Work hard, be honest, try to get
ahead... and lose the pie to man who schmoozes with the politicians...
it's the new American way.



Better wake up and smell the coffee, next thing you know you'll be saying
how the Democrats are fiscally irresponsible...


Yeah, I don't like the fiscal irresponsibility practiced by this congress.

Guess what, it's not Democrats. And the signs were there all along. This
bunch thnks that "providing good gov't" is a bad joke, they are out for
the money and of course the perks of power.



In Bush we have a mini Reagan

Reagan was ten times the man and 50X the President that Bush Jr is.
He genuinely cared about the good of the country, even though he thought
trees cause air pollution. He often consulted with Democrats, and even
non-Washington non-politicians, to get the straight word. GWB doesn't
care about any of that, all he wants is to get his own way, to enrich
his cronies, and to sell the package to his 'base' (meaning YOU).



Agreed. I hope you take a close look at your principles and see which
party is following them more closely.


I constantly do and while many of those principles are only given lip
service by the republicans in power, the democrat party stand in opposition
to them.

Umm, it looks very much to me like the Democrats are opposing the abuse,
fraud, bad governance, greed, and poor policy more than they're opposing
good principles.

But hey, the Bush-Cheney crowd have spent hndreds of millions of
dollars... including our tax money... to convince you that President
Bush and his allies in Congress are good hearted people. It would be a
shame if all that money was wasted, wouldn't it??

... That's why it's very important that you guys choose a presidential
candidate that holds traditional values.


"We"? I just have one vote. Kerry would not have been my first pick, but
there is no doubt in my mind (and probably not much in yours, by now)
that Kerry would have been a better President. Too late now.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Possibly so, but any organiztion that is consistantly attacked will unite
against it's attacker.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
Yes and it started being attacked 20 years ago because it resisted
testing.

And it's being attacked now for supporting Democrats.

It's alligator-chomp-style partisan politics, pure and simple.

Actually, I'm glad to hear that NCLB may be doing some good for the
nation's children although I'm still dubious. But you should open your
eyes to the fact that this is primarily a club to beat down the political
influence of teachers unions, and secondarily to gain a strangelhold on
public schools (for the purpose of strangling it, of course, so that smart
poor kids won't be elbowing the well-connected children out of the way,
later in life).

Gesh, all they would have to do was nothing, the system in place would
insure it. Wow, you need to see a councelor, your thought processes are
seriously bent.



Among the more enlightened, testing is a method to determine objectively
how well you are doing and to shift resources to those areas that need
it.

Really? How does NCLB "shift resources to those that need it?" All I've
heard is that those who flunk get fired & lose funding. Great way to help
them bootstrap up! Compassionate conservatism at it's finest... yank the
rug out from under, then kick 'em when they're down.

That's always accomplished on the local level. Money is provided as a
reward for success. There are provisions to punish (by withholding rewards)
the district if schools in the district don't measure up. This forces the
district to shift resources (teachers) to bring up poorly performing
schools.

Kick them when they are down. It can seem that way but that's the way we
are built. Rewards and punishment work. Just giving the money to districts
that don't perform will do little.

Is being fired, and losing your state license (with the very high
probability of being unable to get a license in any other of these United
States, since NCLB is Federal) "withholding the carrot?"


If they can't pass tests that are no more difficult than the tests that
their students have to take they shouldn't be accreditied to teach.

Agreed but that's not what's happening. A lot of good teachers are getting
booted, teacher/student ratios are higher than ever, and lots of people
who might have become teachers are giving up the idea. It's a train wreck.

Here in NC, the governor gave a short speech the other day on the effects
of NCLB and how the state education system is trying to deal with the
worsening shortage of teachers. May not be a problem everywhere.



Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We
LIKE small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of
the pie.

Really? Like no-bid contracts?

... In cases where massive resources (trucks, cranes, personel) are
required and time is of the essence you give the cotract to the best corp
with a proven track record.

What about cases where the company has no assets in the field except good
political connections? What if the company words the contract such that
they can shrug it off, not do a damn thing, and still collect a
percentage? What about cases where the company is given charge of gov't
property, and "loses" it?

All these things are happening, to the tune of hundreds of millions of our
tax dollars. Next time you're watching C-Span, check the Halliburton
investigation. They're on the hook for about 1/2 billion (with a b) in
fraud, non-performance, kick-backs, "lost" inventory, etc etc. And that's
just one company, just what they've been caught at SO FAR. In most cases,
it was military personnel complaining about non-performance that brought
it up.

And another thing, isn't it funny how the "liberal biased media" doesn't
seem to be paying much attention to this.

Yep, it's a meritocracy all right. Work hard, be honest, try to get
ahead... and lose the pie to man who schmoozes with the politicians...
it's the new American way.

Better wake up and smell the coffee, next thing you know you'll be saying
how the Democrats are fiscally irresponsible...


Yeah, I don't like the fiscal irresponsibility practiced by this
congress.

Guess what, it's not Democrats. And the signs were there all along. This
bunch thnks that "providing good gov't" is a bad joke, they are out for
the money and of course the perks of power.

In Bush we have a mini Reagan

Reagan was ten times the man and 50X the President that Bush Jr is.
He genuinely cared about the good of the country, even though he thought
trees cause air pollution. He often consulted with Democrats, and even
non-Washington non-politicians, to get the straight word. GWB doesn't care
about any of that, all he wants is to get his own way, to enrich his
cronies, and to sell the package to his 'base' (meaning YOU).

Agreed. I hope you take a close look at your principles and see which
party is following them more closely.


I constantly do and while many of those principles are only given lip
service by the republicans in power, the democrat party stand in
opposition to them.

Umm, it looks very much to me like the Democrats are opposing the abuse,
fraud, bad governance, greed, and poor policy more than they're opposing
good principles.

But hey, the Bush-Cheney crowd have spent hndreds of millions of
dollars... including our tax money... to convince you that President Bush
and his allies in Congress are good hearted people. It would be a shame if
all that money was wasted, wouldn't it??

... That's why it's very important that you guys choose a presidential
candidate that holds traditional values.

"We"? I just have one vote. Kerry would not have been my first pick, but
there is no doubt in my mind (and probably not much in yours, by now) that
Kerry would have been a better President. Too late now.

There I'd take exception, If Reagan is 50X the man that Bush is then Bush
is 100 times the man Kerry is. Lieberman on the other had would I think
have been a better choice if only to unite us and stop the political
bickering that we now have.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

Jeff Rigby wrote:
... Wow, you need to see a councelor, your thought processes are
seriously bent.

Coming from a man who wishes he could torture helpless wounded Arabs,
this is a compliment.



... Kerry would not have been my first pick, but
there is no doubt in my mind (and probably not much in yours, by now) that
Kerry would have been a better President. Too late now.


There I'd take exception, If Reagan is 50X the man that Bush is then Bush
is 100 times the man Kerry is.

Glad to see that the hundred million dollar smear campaign against Kerry
worked. It would be a shame if that money were wasted.

The funny thing, you probably say that with a straight face, when
Kerry's family were not millionaires and his daddy was never President,
and you probably join in the clamor for Kerry to "release" his records
when Bush's are conveniently lost, etc etc.


... Lieberman on the other had would I think
have been a better choice if only to unite us and stop the political
bickering that we now have.


Uh huh. You would eagerly join in any attack on any Democrat, or even
any sensible Republican. Frankly, you're part of the problem... but hey,
at least you've got a good little support group here in this newsgroup,
hope you like the company.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jeff Rigby wrote:
... Wow, you need to see a councelor, your thought processes are
seriously bent.

Coming from a man who wishes he could torture helpless wounded Arabs, this
is a compliment.

Helpless wounded arabs, I'd for sure help him or her. Perform first aid and
call 911.

A Terrorist is another story. In the Democrat, Republican or Southern
Republican post you read, there was NO doubt that the Terrorist was a
terrorist. He posed a continuing threat to my family and my extended family
(americans). The only course of action open to me was as I stated. To do
any other would be irresponsible. Killing him outright before getting that
information would be irresponsible. If I could be sure that the authorities
would vigorusly question him I'd turn him in rather than bungle it.


... Lieberman on the other hand would I think have been a better choice
if only to unite us and stop the political bickering that we now have.


Uh huh. You would eagerly join in any attack on any Democrat, or even any
sensible Republican. Frankly, you're part of the problem... but hey, at
least you've got a good little support group here in this newsgroup, hope
you like the company.

I said I'd vote for a DEMOCRAT if he were the right choice, my example
Lieberman. In fact I'd go one further and say that Lieberman would have won
the election. I'm not responding as a chearleader or to insite a mob. But
HONESTLY voicing my views. I rairly get to "see" your views though that is
more of a problem with Harry than with you. You both are practiced a
debating style which is not what i'm trying to do. Debate to win at any
cost even the truth.


DSK