bkr wrote:
: Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
: Paul Tomblin wrote:
: : In a previous article, Chicago Paddling-Fishing said:
: :Paul Tomblin wrote:
: :: kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I
: :: hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like
: :: that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and
: :: found another program with competent leadership.
: If things happened as indicated, I would agree with you completely. The
: "leader" of the trip should be held accountable for ensuring everyone
: has the proper basic instruction and safety training and they adhere to it.

: :Well... first let me say that I'm a boy scout leader... nether the boy scouts
: :nor the girl scouts allow youth members of the opposing genders (there are no
: :boys in girl scouts and there are no girls in boy scouts).
: I'd just like to say this isn't accurate. The BSA has a program called
: Venturers (formerly Explorers) that is a co-ed scout crew (instead of
: troop). There are plenty of them across the country and both genders
: can reach the top level of scouting, which I think is Ranger for the
: Venturer program. I believe only boys can get an Eagle Scout ranking,
: however, through the Venturing program.

Well, you can't just be in a Venture Crew and earn Eagle, you have to be
registered as a Boy Scout, at least initially (there are certain rules that
apply, hence you can't just register as new Venture and earn Eagle).

There are few Venture programs around here, primarily because the starting
age is high and it's hard to get young adults to join a organization when
they are in high school. A boy can be registered in both Boy Scouts and
Venture at the same time. Due to the age requirments, Venture Crews are
generally small... our church has one but it only has 5 members, all over
17 years old (you can't be a youth member in Boy Scouts past 18, but you can
be a youth member in Venture to 20)

Explorers still exists, but was moved into the BSA's Learning for Life program
because they are primarily sponsored by Police/Fire stations.

I would expect that if your encountering a "gaggle" sized group on a river
that cannot control a canoe, they probably aren't 14 to 20 year old kids (the
age range of a venture crew), but closer to the 11 year old range of Boy
or Girl Scouts... plus, most kids don't join Venture new, they join from
a boy or girl scout troop where they have probably already been to summer
camp a few years and have been canoeing before.

Encountering a Venture Crew on a trail or river would be more like meeting
a small group of adults (young adults)... I could see however encountering a
"gaggle" of Boy or Girl Scouts on a river, except for the mixed sex part.

One Boy Scout Troop nearby went to summer camp with 81 boys and 10 leaders...
That would be a gaggle... (they returned with 81 too as far as I know)

: While I generally agree that Scouts are abysmally equipped and trained,
: Paul's reaction seems a bit extreme. I don't know what happened
: exactly, but from his description of events, it seems to me Paul should
: have been able to do something to call attention to himself and avoid
: the collision altogether. Letting them know he was there would have
: been the first thing to do, whether they were "on the other bank" or
: not, even if it's just to be friendly. Then they would have at least
: acknowleged his presence and been more likely to TRY to avoid him. They
: may not have been successful, but odds are they would have done something.

: Karma or not, I don't know. I know nothing of Paul except the few posts
: I've read in this thread. It definitely could have been handled
: differently, though for better or worse is anyone's guess.

I think it varies... as I said, we had Marge Cline (an ACA Paddler of the
Century ;-), her son and another ACA instructor come out and work with our
scouts. I don't think we were special or different; there's a lot of
requirments to meet before getting your permit approved to do a water
activity and training is one of them... You don't just go anywhere, you have
to apply for permits to go and those permits require certain training and
certifications depending on where you are going...

: Which brings up the point of what you do with your spare time... maybe offer
: to help a youth group near you as a way of self preservation?

: This is a very good suggestion. It helps keep you up to date with how
: kids are (even just a small subculture of them) and will also keep you
: thinking and acting young. It sucks sometimes, because, well they're
: teenagers and teenagers suck, but generally speaking it's a great
: experience. And what can be better than molding someone in your own
: image? Teaching them the things you think are important the way you
: find it important for them to learn.

Well, I'd disagree with your teenager comments... they are teenagers and they
come in different shapes, sizes and personalities...

: :Since the youth group wasn't paying attention to you but you saw them, did
: :you announce yourself or announce that you were passing? Even on bikes or
:
: : We were going in opposite directions - they were coming upriver, I was
: : coming down. They were on one side of the river, I was on the other until
: : they lurched across.

: This doesn't make sense to me. Typically I find kayaks to be far more
: maneuverable than canoes so it seems to me, if you had been paying
: attention, Paul, you should have been able to avoid them, whether or not
: they "lurched" across. Like you said, there was more than enough space
: to squeeze by, if that picture is an accurate depiction of the area.

Here we agree... but accidents happen... like i said, when that scout fell
off his bike in front of me for what I thought was no reason... I had all i
could do to not hit him (I hit his bike) and fall without breaking anything.
No damage, except I'll never forget the feeling... (helmet was on... that's
a permit requirment, but I was more worried about breaking a arm...)

--
John Nelson
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