More beginner questions: cadence and technique
 

Many thanks for the helpful input on my previous questions, so maybe I can
ask another one: what makes for a good paddling cadence? I've spent some
time looking at the various videos showing the forward stroke at different
web sites, and they seem to show a very fast cadence (about one complete
stroke rotation every second or even faster), while the printed advice seems
to emphasize torso rotation and gliding between the strokes. Since I tend
to focus on technique, I've been concentrating on a solid front plant (as
far forward as I can without bending the body) around the toes, a steady
rotation while keeping the paddle close to the side of the boat, and
extracting the paddle near the hip. Doing this gives me a cadence of about
one every two seconds or so.

On a measured course, I did 8 km (5 miles) in just over 1 hour (no wind or
current), and on a recent day paddle, I did 32 km (20 miles) in about 4.5
hours (10-20 kph wind headwind, for first half of trip, same as tailwind for
return). My boat is a Current Design Sqall (plastic, 16'6" long) and I'm
using Aquabound "expedition" paddles. All my paddling to date has been on
flat water, although I like to go out when the wind is up. So, is my
cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler? Should I be shortening
the stroke to increase the cadence?

On 22-Aug-2005, "PG" wrote:

So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler?

For a regular paddler, the correct cadence is the one you
are comfortable with.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote:
On 22-Aug-2005, "PG" wrote:

So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler?

For a regular paddler, the correct cadence is the one you
are comfortable with.

Mike

Thank you Mike, for a very "zen" answer. :D

Ok, forget the "regular" part. Much earlier in life (deep voice: many,
many moons ago...) I used to run a lot, and while the enthusiasm was
there, I wasn't keeping up with the older but better runners. One of
them pointed out to me that my running style was rather short and
choppy, and if I changed to a more flowing stride, rolling from heel to
toe, it might help. It took several weeks before I felt comfortable
with the new stride, but once I "got it", I covered more ground faster,
with less fatigue and muscle strain.

Not long after that, I got into long-distance touring by bike, and a
similar evolution happened. A kind fellow traveller pointed out that my
cadence was very slow due to use of too-high gears. After
experimenting, I came up with a cadence of 70-90 rpm at a medium gear,
which I could do for hours.

Now that I have taken up kayak touring, I'm asking whether a slower
cadence, with a longer power stroke is better than a shorter,
higher-cadence power stroke, or whether a low-power but high-cadence
stroke (as with a greenland paddle, I guess) will give me the ability to
paddle all day, cover long distances, but be able to actually enjoy the
area I'm paddling through from beginning to end.

Paul

--
Sent via Travel Newsgroups
http://www.travelnewsgroups.com

On 24-Aug-2005, PG wrote:

It took several weeks before I felt comfortable
with the new stride, but once I "got it", I covered more ground faster,
with less fatigue and muscle strain.

I was thinking of a running analogy when I answered, and I know from many
years ago when I ran that running at an "off pace" was more tiring than
running at my own pace. Hence, paddle at your own pace.

Now that I have taken up kayak touring, I'm asking whether a slower
cadence, with a longer power stroke is better than a shorter,
higher-cadence power stroke, or whether a low-power but high-cadence
stroke (as with a greenland paddle, I guess) will give me the ability to
paddle all day, cover long distances, but be able to actually enjoy the
area I'm paddling through from beginning to end.

Now this is a slightly different way of asking and the answer is - I don't
honestly know. First of all - when using a Greenland style or a Euro, I
find I use the same candence. Regardless of which paddle I use, I end
up going the same speed as the others I paddle with. I'm not sure why
so many folks consider the GP as requiring a faster cadence.

I prefer a slower cadence so that I use a full rotation. Keeping that
rotation with a fast cadence may be more efficient, but it would mean
going faster, which would be exhausting. Increasing the tempo without
increasing the speed would mean shortening the rotation. That wouldn't
mean using more arm power, just less torso power per stroke.

In terms of the degree to which the paddle blade draws or sweeps, a
shorter stroke, with a catch not so far forward and an exit not so
far aft would add less turning to the kayak and more of the work would
result in forward motion. That along with the higher tempo would
sound more efficient. (More significant with a low stroke than with
a high stroke).

However, it still remains that the most efficient is not necessarily the
least energy use. It may be more efficient to go fast but that may require
output that takes the fun out of kayaking. Similarly, if the most efficient
is too slow, you won't get anywhere.

I'm not aware of anyone really doing any meaningful tests of kayakers in
non-racing (i.e. 500m - 1km sprints) conditions. There's been a lot of
talk, but no data.

Mike

PG wrote:
Many thanks for the helpful input on my previous questions, so maybe I can
ask another one: what makes for a good paddling cadence? I've spent some
time looking at the various videos showing the forward stroke at different
web sites, and they seem to show a very fast cadence (about one complete
stroke rotation every second or even faster), while the printed advice seems
to emphasize torso rotation and gliding between the strokes. Since I tend
to focus on technique, I've been concentrating on a solid front plant (as
far forward as I can without bending the body) around the toes, a steady
rotation while keeping the paddle close to the side of the boat, and
extracting the paddle near the hip. Doing this gives me a cadence of about
one every two seconds or so.

On a measured course, I did 8 km (5 miles) in just over 1 hour (no wind or
current), and on a recent day paddle, I did 32 km (20 miles) in about 4.5
hours (10-20 kph wind headwind, for first half of trip, same as tailwind for
return). My boat is a Current Design Sqall (plastic, 16'6" long) and I'm
using Aquabound "expedition" paddles. All my paddling to date has been on
flat water, although I like to go out when the wind is up. So, is my
cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler? Should I be shortening
the stroke to increase the cadence?



A hint: watch your kayak´s bow. As long as it stays steady, you are
doing fine. If you paddle too fast for your ability or pull too long
strokes, your bow starts going either up and down or moving sideways.
Then it is time to slow down/shorten the pull.

Jaakko

o~
(____/____)
/

....stuff deleted

Now that I have taken up kayak touring, I'm asking whether a slower
cadence, with a longer power stroke is better than a shorter,
higher-cadence power stroke, or whether a low-power but high-cadence
stroke (as with a greenland paddle, I guess) will give me the ability to
paddle all day, cover long distances, but be able to actually enjoy the
area I'm paddling through from beginning to end.

Paul


Paul is onto the basic idea. Muscles fatigue for two reasons:
- overuse from repetitions at a high rate of speed
- overuse from few repetitions against force at low speeds

You can replicate these by doing the following:
- open and close your hand as fast as you can (no resistance)
- climb a steep hill (10 % + grade) on a bicycle

In both cases, you will fatigue within a couple of minutes. Depending upon
conditioning, you may be able to continue to climb the hill, but it is
unlikely that you can continue to open and close your hand after about 2
minutes. After climbing the hill, however, you will need more time to
recover from the cycling than you will from the hand exercise, so there is a
difference in the two types of fatigue (i.e. hard work against low
resistance tends to produce soreness, while fast repetitions do not).

Thus, there is an obvious mid-point of optimal performance before fatigue
sets in. Surprisingly, however, the physical studies suggest that this
optimal performance point results (for most) in a cadence that is too slow
(not a universal truth - I know a few distance cyclists who prefer a cadence
closer to 60, but most, like me, prefer a rate closer to 90). Cyclists and
paddlers will (tend to) find a cadence that is a tad faster than that
optimal performance point. The last study I read suggested that this is
because at the optimal performance point, the muscles fatigue from both
methods of overuse.

Paddlers can adjust cadence by shortening the shaft and narrowing the paddle
blade, with the short shaft having a more drastic effect (a fat blade is
similar to a high gear in that it increases resistance, and weight, making
each stroke a tad more difficult to do). In any case, the right cadence is
fully dependant upon the choice/comfort of the paddler.

Hope this helps (rather than muddies) understanding.

Rick

PG wrote:

On a measured course, I did 8 km (5 miles) in just over 1 hour (no
wind or current), and on a recent day paddle, I did 32 km (20 miles)
in about 4.5 hours (10-20 kph wind headwind, for first half of trip,
same as tailwind for return). My boat is a Current Design Sqall
(plastic, 16'6" long) and I'm using Aquabound "expedition" paddles. All my
paddling to date has been on flat water, although I like to go
out when the wind is up. So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a
"regular" paddler? Should I be shortening the stroke to increase the
cadence?

Lots of advice. Based on the above it looks you are averaging about 4 knots
an hour. I think you are doing pretty good for touring. All I can do is
speak for myself. Some people think I paddle in slow motion but I can hold
4 knots hour after hour. I concentrated on making my paddle stroke very
efficient. This means concentrating on technique while learning. The other
thing I do is GPS all of my kayaking trips and then download the track into
software where I can plot my speed. This way I can critique my trip and the
speed I was making on the various legs.
--
Bill

Brought to you from beautiful Unalaska/Dutch Harbor, Alaska.
N 53° 51.140' W 166° 30.228' (WGS 84)

In theory, any song with a steady rhythm to it's words, or drum beat, would
do for cadence.

Depending on whether you're paddling for fun or for competition, you may be
able to or want to take a player with you for music. Of course, never have
music up so loud that you can't hear cries for help, or someone's heave-to
warnings.

For that reason, lyrical cadence is much better.

in article , Michael
Daly at wrote on 8/24/05 12:23 PM:

On 22-Aug-2005, "PG" wrote:

So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler?

For a regular paddler, the correct cadence is the one you
are comfortable with.

Mike

That's the first down to earth, reasonable, and useful comment I've ever
seen from you! Congratulations, and keep it up.

There are as many answers to your question as there paddlers. I missed the
initial comments, but allow me to ad my own. A flat water, olympic class
paddler going 500 to 1000 meters will have a cadence much faster than a
person in an ocean kaytak paddling in the San Juans.

I don't know how long your paddle is. A longer one will turn a slower
cadence than a short one. Olympic paddle used to be 220 cm + or -. The
wing paddle has changed it a tad. Yes... catch as far forward as possible.
Yes, rotate, so as if you had a broomstick straped on your shoulder blades
it would scribe an arc of almost 90 degrees. . Yes glide is important. A
momentary pause in the stroke just before lowering the blade to initiate the
stroke will give you more distance per stroke without slowing the boat.

A few other ideas: push open handed with the top hand as a shot put, and do
so forward towards the bow of the boat. The top hand may cross centerline
of the boat, but should not pass the opposite side of the boat.

Just for the fun of it, Why does a racing scull go faster when the oars are
out of the water, and slower with the blasdes in the water? (no it is not
drag)... Mike

Michael Hearn Anna Houpt wrote:

Just for the fun of it, Why does a racing scull go faster when the oars are
out of the water, and slower with the blasdes in the water? (no it is not
drag)... Mike

Because as the paddler slides toward the stern, the motion plus the
inertia of the oars drives the hull forward momentarily. It's really
somewhat illusory, as the rower is actually slowing down and the boat is
just moving relative to his/her body. It's more of a "windup" than
anything else.

"Jaakko" wrote in message
...

stuff deleted

A hint: watch your kayak´s bow. As long as it stays steady, you are doing
fine. If you paddle too fast for your ability or pull too long strokes,
your bow starts going either up and down or moving sideways. Then it is
time to slow down/shorten the pull.

Jaakko

o~
(____/____)
/

Since the bow of my kayak is curved rather strongly (I guess to allow it to
go over waves), I get a nice bow wave appearing once I get to about 4 mph.
As I go faster, the wave gets bigger. The bow does go up on the wave as I
go faster, but what I find most noticeable is the size of the wave. Lately,
I've been using that as the indicator of speed and every time the wave
starts going down from its "usual" height, I know I'm slacking off.

"Rick Donnelly" wrote in message
m...

...stuff deleted

Paul is onto the basic idea. Muscles fatigue for two reasons:
- overuse from repetitions at a high rate of speed
- overuse from few repetitions against force at low speeds

You can replicate these by doing the following:
- open and close your hand as fast as you can (no resistance)
- climb a steep hill (10 % + grade) on a bicycle

In both cases, you will fatigue within a couple of minutes. Depending upon
conditioning, you may be able to continue to climb the hill, but it is
unlikely that you can continue to open and close your hand after about 2
minutes. After climbing the hill, however, you will need more time to
recover from the cycling than you will from the hand exercise, so there is
a difference in the two types of fatigue (i.e. hard work against low
resistance tends to produce soreness, while fast repetitions do not).

Thus, there is an obvious mid-point of optimal performance before fatigue
sets in. Surprisingly, however, the physical studies suggest that this
optimal performance point results (for most) in a cadence that is too slow
(not a universal truth - I know a few distance cyclists who prefer a
cadence closer to 60, but most, like me, prefer a rate closer to 90).
Cyclists and paddlers will (tend to) find a cadence that is a tad faster
than that optimal performance point. The last study I read suggested that
this is because at the optimal performance point, the muscles fatigue from
both methods of overuse.

Paddlers can adjust cadence by shortening the shaft and narrowing the
paddle blade, with the short shaft having a more drastic effect (a fat
blade is similar to a high gear in that it increases resistance, and
weight, making each stroke a tad more difficult to do). In any case, the
right cadence is fully dependant upon the choice/comfort of the paddler.

Hope this helps (rather than muddies) understanding.

Rick


Rick, I once played the role of a "trained athlete" (all together now...
many moons ago) in which I and a "sedentary" individual were compared in
terms of physiologic responses to increases in exercise rate (this to a
class of med students doing a course on exercise physiology). We both rode
stationary bikes, and were hooked into an ECG machine, ventilator and gas
analyzer. The protocol was for us to both ride the bikes for five minute
intervals, first at no resistance, then at successively increasing
resistance levels. The machines measured the work output, the heart rate,
the amount of air being breathed in and out, and the gas composition (c02
and O2 ratios). While the levels at which I and the other individual
"topped out" were different, the physiologic responses were similar.

In essence, the exercise demonstrated that as the amount of work increases,
the body adapts by increasing heart rate (oxygen delivery), ventilation
volume (oxygen uptake and carbon dioxide exhaust), and oxygen consumption up
to a certain level (which, if I remember correctly was termed VO2max).
Energy consumption up to this point is purely aerobic. As the effort level
increases past this point, the muscles start producing energy anaerobically
(accumulating lactic acid as a by-product). Anaerobic work cannot be
carried out for long as the accumulation of lactic acid starts becoming very
painful, and the breathing pattern collapses into gasps.

If the work is spread out over a number of muscle groups, then the overall
work level is increased (up to the limit of maximum ability of the
heart/lungs to deliver the oxygen). How this applies to kayaking is to use
technique to balance the paddling workload over the maximum number of
muscles, so that no one group gets overloaded. So in essence, that is what
I am trying to figure out - how to achieve maximum output (without crossing
into the anaerobic territory) and which combination of techniques to use.

How this relates to your defining the two types of exercises (high
resistance & low cadence, vs. low resistance & high cadence), is that the
soreness caused by the high resistance exercise is due to lactic acid
accumulation. Recovery is also slower because the lactic acid is an
intermediate oxidation product, and must be oxidized to CO2 to be
eliminated, and the "oxygen debt" that is incurred while producing lactic
acid is then repaid during recovery. Increasing cadence (while reducing the
load) works to a certain point, but as the cadence increases more we get
into neuro-muscular control issues - it becomes harder and harder to
coordinate smooth muscle motion and the motions become more "ballistic",
until you cannot keep the motions coordinated and it all falls apart. The
sweet spot I'm looking for is where the cadence is high enough that the work
level is within the aerobic capacity of my system.

Now, do the maximal exercise long enough, and you run into another
limitation - that of your liver's ability to deliver glucose to the
bloodstream at a sufficient level to support both work generation and brain
function. Once your liver depletes its stores of glycogen, the blood sugar
level drops rapidly, and you get the infamous "bonk" where the athlete runs
out of energy and becomes sluggish and uncoordinated. I've had that happen
to me twice during my cycling phase - and it is not a pleasant experience.
Fortunately, I haven't yet reached that level in paddling.

Regards,

Paul

PG wrote:
"Jaakko" wrote in message
...

stuff deleted

A hint: watch your kayak´s bow. As long as it stays steady, you are doing
fine. If you paddle too fast for your ability or pull too long strokes,
your bow starts going either up and down or moving sideways. Then it is
time to slow down/shorten the pull.

Jaakko

o~
(____/____)
/


Since the bow of my kayak is curved rather strongly (I guess to allow it to
go over waves), I get a nice bow wave appearing once I get to about 4 mph.
As I go faster, the wave gets bigger. The bow does go up on the wave as I
go faster, but what I find most noticeable is the size of the wave. Lately,
I've been using that as the indicator of speed and every time the wave
starts going down from its "usual" height, I know I'm slacking off.

It also means that you're near the maximum hull speed for your boat and
that you're probably wasting energy trying to push past it. It's a very
inefficient way to paddle, as once you reach this point, the energy
requirements to increase your speed go up exponentially. Here's a link
to an explanation and a calculator:

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/technic.../hullspeed.htm

There is some debate at to whether the formula is accurate for kayaks,
since racers routinely exceed the theoretical maximum speed for their
boats, but fundamental premise is still applicable.

It sounds like you need a higher performance boat that's better suited
to your paddling style. Worrying about the most efficient cadence is
rather pointless when you're throwing away massive amounts of energy due
to an inefficient boat. It's the functional equivalent of riding a bike
while towing a parachute. "Penny wise and pound foolish", so to speak.
The most efficient way to paddle your Squall is to slow down to below
the maximum hull speed where the wavemaking drag on the boat is
dramatically lower.

Don't get me wrong, the Squall is a fine boat for what it is, it's just
not what you want if you're serious about efficiency and going fast. You
should be looking at racing boats or "race-inspired" touring boats.

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 10:31:25 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Worrying about the most efficient cadence is
rather pointless when you're throwing away massive amounts of energy due
to an inefficient boat.

That is true, but I applaud Paul's effort in trying to better his
forward stroke. Buying a better, faster boat is easy, perfecting the
forward stroke is not. And no matter what boat he gets, the issue of
forward stroke and cadence will still be there.

BTW, I really appreciate your input Brian, as well as Paul's
statements regarding muscle fatigue. You guys are great and Brian I
have enjoyed your posts in pnet as well. I mostly just read these
posts, but though I would comment this time.

Regarding maximum hull speed I have been thinking of an experiment. It
would be nice to tow a kayak at different speeds and measure the tow
line force. I would love to see the speed vs. force curve for a
variety of kayaks. The towing would have to be done is such a way
that the kayak in tow is not in the wake of the towing boat. It would
show how closely the maximum hull speed formula in Brians link applies
to kayaks. Does anybody know if this has ever been done?

Lou

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
news:1MARe.47543$j41.21902@trndny05...
PG wrote:
"Jaakko" wrote in message
...

stuff deleted

Since the bow of my kayak is curved rather strongly (I guess to allow it
to go over waves), I get a nice bow wave appearing once I get to about 4
mph. As I go faster, the wave gets bigger. The bow does go up on the
wave as I go faster, but what I find most noticeable is the size of the
wave. Lately, I've been using that as the indicator of speed and every
time the wave starts going down from its "usual" height, I know I'm
slacking off.

It also means that you're near the maximum hull speed for your boat and
that you're probably wasting energy trying to push past it. It's a very
inefficient way to paddle, as once you reach this point, the energy
requirements to increase your speed go up exponentially. Here's a link to
an explanation and a calculator:

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/technic.../hullspeed.htm

There is some debate at to whether the formula is accurate for kayaks,
since racers routinely exceed the theoretical maximum speed for their
boats, but fundamental premise is still applicable.

It sounds like you need a higher performance boat that's better suited to
your paddling style. Worrying about the most efficient cadence is rather
pointless when you're throwing away massive amounts of energy due to an
inefficient boat. It's the functional equivalent of riding a bike while
towing a parachute. "Penny wise and pound foolish", so to speak. The most
efficient way to paddle your Squall is to slow down to below the maximum
hull speed where the wavemaking drag on the boat is dramatically lower.

Don't get me wrong, the Squall is a fine boat for what it is, it's just
not what you want if you're serious about efficiency and going fast. You
should be looking at racing boats or "race-inspired" touring boats.

Thank you Brian, for your comments and the link. According to the formula
the max hull speed for my boat is 5.31 knots or 6.1 mph. I've already
noticed that at 5 mph I'm pushing fairly hard, and trying to get above that
seemed like I was hitting a wall. I'll have to pay attention to the quarter
wave to see if it is there at the end of the boat when I am going my
fastest. But your point is taken - probably the optimal cruising speed for
me in the Squall is around 4.2-4.5 mph. I'm not sure that I've outgrown the
boat yet, as there are still a bunch of skills I need to acquire (rolling,
edging, getting a decent high brace...).

While I got your attention, there's another question that's been bothering
me. Somewhere I have read that a good paddler should be able to go backward
in a straight line almost as fast as going forward. When I try to do that,
I find that at slow speed I can maintain a straight line, but at higher
speeds there is a pronounced turn to the right, which I cannot compensate
for with sweep strokes. My rudder is always up so I can't blame it. I
thought perhaps I was doing an inadvertent edge, but doing a deliberate edge
in either direction still gave more or less the same result. Do you think
there is something assymetric in my technique, or is it inherent in the
boat?

Paul

"PG" wrote in
:



While I got your attention, there's another question that's been
bothering me. Somewhere I have read that a good paddler should be able
to go backward in a straight line almost as fast as going forward.
When I try to do that, I find that at slow speed I can maintain a
straight line, but at higher speeds there is a pronounced turn to the
right, which I cannot compensate for with sweep strokes. My rudder is
always up so I can't blame it. I thought perhaps I was doing an
inadvertent edge, but doing a deliberate edge in either direction
still gave more or less the same result. Do you think there is
something assymetric in my technique, or is it inherent in the boat?

It's probably not the boat. One of the skills you're tested on when taking
a BCU 3 star assessment is paddling backwards in a figure 8. It turns out
to be one of the skills that prevents a successful completion of the
assessment. After a day of training and assessment with 11 other people the
most common problem was being able to change directions once you started to
turn. First, if you *want* to turn you should edge the boat to the outside
of the turn. Once you've started to turn the boat will tend to continue to
turn in that direction, even if you edge in the opposite direction. The
trick is to bring the hull to a flat position, initiate the turn in the
opposite direction with a sweep stroke, then edge away from the direction
you want to go. Most likely there is something asymetric in your technique
that is causing the boat to start to turn right and once it starts it tends
to go that way.

I like using a reverse stroke when teaching beginners torso rotation.
Rotating the torso until the paddleshaft is nearly parallel with the boat,
then present the backface of the blade to the water for the catch, then
uncoil you body and repeat on the opposite side. Start slowly and gradually
put a little more into the stroke and you should be able to maintain a
straight course.

Mr. C wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 10:31:25 GMT, Brian Nystrom wrote:

Worrying about the most efficient cadence is
rather pointless when you're throwing away massive amounts of energy due
to an inefficient boat.


That is true, but I applaud Paul's effort in trying to better his
forward stroke. Buying a better, faster boat is easy, perfecting the
forward stroke is not. And no matter what boat he gets, the issue of
forward stroke and cadence will still be there.

True. My point was that it's a matter of degrees. For a performance
oriented paddler, a more efficient boat will yield a much larger
improvement than fine-tuning one's cadence, but both are beneficial.

BTW, I really appreciate your input Brian, as well as Paul's
statements regarding muscle fatigue. You guys are great and Brian I
have enjoyed your posts in pnet as well. I mostly just read these
posts, but though I would comment this time.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad to be of help.

Regarding maximum hull speed I have been thinking of an experiment. It
would be nice to tow a kayak at different speeds and measure the tow
line force. I would love to see the speed vs. force curve for a
variety of kayaks. The towing would have to be done is such a way
that the kayak in tow is not in the wake of the towing boat. It would
show how closely the maximum hull speed formula in Brians link applies
to kayaks. Does anybody know if this has ever been done?

Sea Kayaker did some tow-tank testing several years ago. I have the back
issue somewhere, but I'm not sure what issue it's in. Perhaps you can
order a reprint of the article, as they do offer that service. The boats
used no longer exist, but it may make for interesting reading.

PG wrote:
Thank you Brian, for your comments and the link. According to the formula
the max hull speed for my boat is 5.31 knots or 6.1 mph. I've already
noticed that at 5 mph I'm pushing fairly hard, and trying to get above that
seemed like I was hitting a wall. I'll have to pay attention to the quarter
wave to see if it is there at the end of the boat when I am going my
fastest. But your point is taken - probably the optimal cruising speed for
me in the Squall is around 4.2-4.5 mph. I'm not sure that I've outgrown the
boat yet, as there are still a bunch of skills I need to acquire (rolling,
edging, getting a decent high brace...).

I don't mean to "dis" your boat, as it's a capable craft that's
certainly useful for learning in, not to mention day/weekend trips. I've
got one boat, a Pintail, that hits the wall at around the same speed.
It's a great boat in rough water, but it's a pig when it's flat and calm.

While I got your attention, there's another question that's been bothering
me. Somewhere I have read that a good paddler should be able to go backward
in a straight line almost as fast as going forward. When I try to do that,
I find that at slow speed I can maintain a straight line, but at higher
speeds there is a pronounced turn to the right, which I cannot compensate
for with sweep strokes. My rudder is always up so I can't blame it. I
thought perhaps I was doing an inadvertent edge, but doing a deliberate edge
in either direction still gave more or less the same result. Do you think
there is something assymetric in my technique, or is it inherent in the
boat?

It could be either, but the former is more likely. Paddling straight in
reverse can also be very boat dependent. Some boats are easily
controllable while being paddled backwards, others won't go straight for
any reason.

As with the forward stroke, it's normal to have some asymmetry in
technique and strength that can cause the boat to turn in one direction
or the other. It's also common for people to sit with one hip a bit
lower than the other, which can have a similar effect.

It IS possible that the boat is slightly "bent", but it's pretty unlikely.

On 1-Sep-2005, Mr. C wrote:

It would
show how closely the maximum hull speed formula in Brians link applies
to kayaks. Does anybody know if this has ever been done?

We know it doesn't apply strongly and it is not worth worrying about. First
of all, there's no such "maximum" speed. The hull speed given by Froude's
speed-length ratio of 1.34 is an somewhat arbitrary value that links the
waterline length to the wavelength of the bow wave. Unfortunately, a lot of
folks have interpreted it as a speed limit of some sort.

The page Brian linked to discusses the speed-length ratio in terms of sailboats.
In the case of a displacement sailboat, most designers know that you can't
realistically increase the speed over the so-called hull speed, so the design
of the sail rig is based on that. If you could carry a _lot_ more sail, you
could start pushing past the hull speed. However, that sail rig would cost a
lot (if a significant speed increase is wanted) and it would be a bitch to
handle in most conditions. Since the average sailor never sees his craft
exceed the hull speed with a typical sail rig, the speed-length rule of
thumb starts to look like an absolute law and it enters into the sailors'
legends.

Multihulls and other displacement craft show that the speed-length ratio is
not so much of a limit. Olympic class kayaks do it routinely:
http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/guille/wiki.pl?Hull_Speed

The way to interpret the speed-length ratio or the hull speed is to
recognize that it represents a speed that takes a lot of work to achieve.
If you want to paddle fast all the time, then a longer waterline length
is one thing to look for. However, it isn't an absolute guide to the
behavior of a kayak. For example, based on the analyses of a bunch
of kayaks reviewed in Sea Kayak magazine, you can see the following

http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/loaVSlwl.htm

You can see that the resistance generally goes down with waterline length,
but there are some exceptions.

Mike

Brian Nystrom wrote in
news:09KRe.21382$LK.21269@trndny09:



It IS possible that the boat is slightly "bent", but it's pretty
unlikely.

I've seen one brand new plastic boat that had a visible bend to one side at
the bow. A couple of people complained about being unable to keep it from
turning to the right but when I paddled I think I just naturally compensated
for it and was able to maintain a straight course as long as I was paddling.
If I stopped paddling and let it glide it would drift slightly to the left.

BTW, I also agree with Brian that the Squall is a fine boat. If I were to
rate the top 10 plastic touring kayaks I would get on the list.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
Brian Nystrom wrote in
news:09KRe.21382$LK.21269@trndny09:



It IS possible that the boat is slightly "bent", but it's pretty
unlikely.

I've seen one brand new plastic boat that had a visible bend to one side
at
the bow. A couple of people complained about being unable to keep it from
turning to the right but when I paddled I think I just naturally
compensated
for it and was able to maintain a straight course as long as I was
paddling.
If I stopped paddling and let it glide it would drift slightly to the
left.

BTW, I also agree with Brian that the Squall is a fine boat. If I were to
rate the top 10 plastic touring kayaks I would get on the list.


Thank you, John, Brian and Mike for your comments. Checked the boat, and it
doesn't LOOK bent. It also goes pretty straight when I or one of my
daughters paddle it, so I think John's analysis is correct. Didn't know
about the backward figure 8 test in BCU 3, but now that I do, I will take
John's suggestions regarding the lean of the boat and experiment with this.

I own a number of small watercraft (canoe, rec boats, small speedboat), and
the Squall is my first "real" kayak. I am very happy with it, as I have
been able to explore many of the waterways near where I live in a way that
is different from the other craft. The canoe is good for two or more
people, excellent for doing stuff together with my better half, not so good
in windy conditions, and difficult to move solo in anything else other that
calm conditions (it's a long boat). The rec boats are fun, great for
splashing around, perfect for ponds and mucking around in the reeds and
close to the shore, but practically useless for going any distance. The
speedboat is great for fishing, trolling, and taking our family to visit
friends on the other side of the lake. However, it smells (gas and exhaust
fumes), is comparatively noisy, and is not the best for closeup looks of
wildlife (and we're not talking the beercan-in-hand kind). With my Squall,
I can get away for some solitude (no need to coordinate group schedules), go
quietly close to the shore (and see the fronts of animals, not their fleeing
hind quarter...), get some great exercise when I need to do some heavy
breathing, and explore new areas that were too far for the canoe, and too
shallow/weedy/narrow for the speedboat.

This past weekend, we rented a second sea kayak for my daughter and went out
twice in two different lakes. The first trip started out not so well, as my
daughter had to get used to a new boat, and the wind was blowing in excess
of 20 mph (gusting to 40), raising waves of about 2-3 feet. Before leaving,
we practised some basic rescue techniques; turning, stopping and reversing
manoevres, and forward paddling technique (she only paddled the rec boats
and the canoe before). Despite the wind and waves, we were able to paddle
about 5 miles and in the process, she learned how to surf the waves when we
were going downwind. When we were doing one lake crossing, we were going
perpendicular to the wind direction, and the several times the whitecaps
would wash over us, but since we both had our spray skirts on, that wasn't
much of a problem - actually was a bit of fun.

The next day, we went to a lake near the city and the conditions were better
than the day before, with the wind blowing steadily at about 10-15 mph. We
took our time, explored a number of inlets and bays, snuck up on some
basking fish (a large-mouth bass and several gars), rescued a turtle that
was snagged by some discarded fishing line, and generally just mosied along.
Although the lake we were on usually has a huge amount of pleasure-craft
traffic, we were in an area where the average depth was about 2 feet, with
frequent rocks at or just below the surface, so the motor craft were
elsewhere. At one point, she carried out a t-rescue since I got carried
away watching stuff in the water and flipped over. Since I haven't learned
to roll yet, it was going to be a wet exit, but she came right up as we had
discussed the day before and I was able to pull myself up by holding to the
bow of her boat. Now I know she pays attention!. On the way back, the wind
came up and I practiced doing a tow with her enjoying the scenery as I got
my exercise in.

Yes, I really do enjoy the Squall and we're even thinking of doing a
week-end camping/paddling trip (one-nighter, provincial campground, so we're
not really roughing it...) before it gets cold. And in the meantime, I'll
continue to read the wise words of the experienced paddlers, and practice
what I need to perfect.

Happy paddling and safe Labour Day's weekend to all

Paul

"PG" wrote in
:

Although the lake we were on usually has a
huge amount of pleasure-craft traffic, we were in an area where the
average depth was about 2 feet, with frequent rocks at or just below
the surface, so the motor craft were elsewhere. At one point, she
carried out a t-rescue since I got carried away watching stuff in the
water and flipped over. Since I haven't learned to roll yet, it was
going to be a wet exit, but she came right up as we had discussed the
day before and I was able to pull myself up by holding to the bow of
her boat. Now I know she pays attention!. On the way back, the wind
came up and I practiced doing a tow with her enjoying the scenery as I
got my exercise in.

That's great that you're doing that. Few people practice towing and the
time to find out what works and what doesn't isn't when a tow is really
needed.

You might also want to try an assisted rescue using the paddle as well as
the bow rescue you did. For the paddle version you brisklypaddle up
parallel to the capsized boat. When you reach the boat you basically fall
onto the upturned hull and lay your paddle across it. Grab the victims hand
and place it on the paddle shaft and they'll come up between the boats. Be
careful about not letting the paddle shaft go to the opposite side. If it
does and they grab onto it and try to come up on the other side it won't
work. At first many that try this rescue will not get close enough to the
victims boat and shoot right by. You can practice paddling up to a partners
boat while they're sitting right side up to judge how close you need to be
and how fast you can come in. The advantage of using the paddle for the
resue rather than a bow is that when a capsize occurs you're usually
paddling in the same direction. For a t-bow resuce you have to be somewhat
perpendicular althouth with practice you'll find that the best way to
present your bow to a capsized paddler is to aim between the cockpit and the
bow or stern at an angle and then slide it up. It's also worth practice
these rescues when the victim capsized behind you. It'll usually prompt you
to practice reverse paddling more.

In a previous article, said:
Michael Hearn Anna Houpt wrote:
Just for the fun of it, Why does a racing scull go faster when the oars are
out of the water, and slower with the blasdes in the water? (no it is not
drag)... Mike

Because as the paddler slides toward the stern, the motion plus the
inertia of the oars drives the hull forward momentarily. It's really
somewhat illusory, as the rower is actually slowing down and the boat is
just moving relative to his/her body. It's more of a "windup" than
anything else.

In other words, the center of mass of the boat+rower is actually moving
more slowly.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical reasons* why it is
necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
Stuff deleted

One of the skills you're tested on when taking
a BCU 3 star assessment is paddling backwards in a figure 8. It turns out
to be one of the skills that prevents a successful completion of the
assessment. After a day of training and assessment with 11 other people
the
most common problem was being able to change directions once you started
to
turn. First, if you *want* to turn you should edge the boat to the
outside
of the turn. Once you've started to turn the boat will tend to continue
to
turn in that direction, even if you edge in the opposite direction. The
trick is to bring the hull to a flat position, initiate the turn in the
opposite direction with a sweep stroke, then edge away from the direction
you want to go. Most likely there is something asymetric in your
technique
that is causing the boat to start to turn right and once it starts it
tends
to go that way.

I like using a reverse stroke when teaching beginners torso rotation.
Rotating the torso until the paddleshaft is nearly parallel with the boat,
then present the backface of the blade to the water for the catch, then
uncoil you body and repeat on the opposite side. Start slowly and
gradually
put a little more into the stroke and you should be able to maintain a
straight course.


John, I tried your suggestions this weekend, and it works! My problem with
the kayak turning while going backward was due to an unconsious lean. I
experimented with edging the boat on both sides and once I made sure that
the boat was level, it went backwards in a straight line. However, a bit of
lean, and away in a turn I went! With this new knowledge in hand, it was
time to practice the backward figure 8 you mentioned. Did three in a row,
with the smallest having a radius of about 15 ft. (moving slowly) and the
largest about 25 ft. (moving about 3 mph). And you're also right about the
backward turns using full torso rotation - it didn't work well when I was
lazy and didn't do the full windup - but when I did, the turn was relatively
easy.

On Saturday, my wife went sailing with friends and I went with my kayak.
After a while we parted ways, as a catamaran at speed is 'way faster than a
kayak. So I paddled a stretch of shoreline that I haven't seen before.
Coming back about an hour and a half later, I discovered the cat stranded on
a mud bar about 50 feet from the shore. Put my towing practice into use and
towed the cat away from the mud bar. Since I was going against a 3 mph
current at the same time, it became quite a workout. However after about 10
minutes of work, they were in a clear channel and were able to line up with
the dock.

Yesterday, my wife and I went for an early morning canoe ride on Lake
Champlain. Although her enthusiasm for water is more restrained than mine,
she's a strong paddler and had good endurance. The surface was perfectly
still - just like glass, and the water was clear down to 10-15 ft. It felt
that we were suspended above the lake bottom, with the grasses, fish, rocks,
and thousands of zebra mussels really clear and easy to see. No motor boats
were out, just a few (quiet) fishermen. It felt like the gates of Heaven
opened up and we didn't even notice we paddled through. After about four
hours of paddling, we finally came back for lunch. After a quick lunch, I
went out for a kayak ride as the waters continued to be calm and inviting.
After three more hours on the water, it was time to come home as there were
at least fifty boats going back and forth (ok, maybe not that many, but
there were at least 10 power boat towing tubes or water-skis, a gaggle of
jet skis, maybe 10-15 cabin cruisers, three cigar boats, and a handful of
sailboats under motor). The drone of various motors and whine of the jet
skis (not to mention the continuous criss-crossing wake waves) made any
on-water contemplation to be an exercise in deep concentration. It was time
to catch up with the chores. After this weekend, the boat traffic should be
considerably reduced, and the water will stay warm to the end of September.
After that, it'll be time to get the wet suit and farmer johns out.