Many thanks for the helpful input on my previous questions, so maybe I can
ask another one: what makes for a good paddling cadence? I've spent some
time looking at the various videos showing the forward stroke at different
web sites, and they seem to show a very fast cadence (about one complete
stroke rotation every second or even faster), while the printed advice seems
to emphasize torso rotation and gliding between the strokes. Since I tend
to focus on technique, I've been concentrating on a solid front plant (as
far forward as I can without bending the body) around the toes, a steady
rotation while keeping the paddle close to the side of the boat, and
extracting the paddle near the hip. Doing this gives me a cadence of about
one every two seconds or so.

On a measured course, I did 8 km (5 miles) in just over 1 hour (no wind or
current), and on a recent day paddle, I did 32 km (20 miles) in about 4.5
hours (10-20 kph wind headwind, for first half of trip, same as tailwind for
return). My boat is a Current Design Sqall (plastic, 16'6" long) and I'm
using Aquabound "expedition" paddles. All my paddling to date has been on
flat water, although I like to go out when the wind is up. So, is my
cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler? Should I be shortening
the stroke to increase the cadence?

On 22-Aug-2005, "PG" wrote:

So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler?

For a regular paddler, the correct cadence is the one you
are comfortable with.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote:
On 22-Aug-2005, "PG" wrote:

So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler?

For a regular paddler, the correct cadence is the one you
are comfortable with.

Mike

Thank you Mike, for a very "zen" answer.

Ok, forget the "regular" part. Much earlier in life (deep voice: many,
many moons ago...) I used to run a lot, and while the enthusiasm was
there, I wasn't keeping up with the older but better runners. One of
them pointed out to me that my running style was rather short and
choppy, and if I changed to a more flowing stride, rolling from heel to
toe, it might help. It took several weeks before I felt comfortable
with the new stride, but once I "got it", I covered more ground faster,
with less fatigue and muscle strain.

Not long after that, I got into long-distance touring by bike, and a
similar evolution happened. A kind fellow traveller pointed out that my
cadence was very slow due to use of too-high gears. After
experimenting, I came up with a cadence of 70-90 rpm at a medium gear,
which I could do for hours.

Now that I have taken up kayak touring, I'm asking whether a slower
cadence, with a longer power stroke is better than a shorter,
higher-cadence power stroke, or whether a low-power but high-cadence
stroke (as with a greenland paddle, I guess) will give me the ability to
paddle all day, cover long distances, but be able to actually enjoy the
area I'm paddling through from beginning to end.

Paul

--
Sent via Travel Newsgroups
http://www.travelnewsgroups.com

On 24-Aug-2005, PG wrote:

It took several weeks before I felt comfortable
with the new stride, but once I "got it", I covered more ground faster,
with less fatigue and muscle strain.

I was thinking of a running analogy when I answered, and I know from many
years ago when I ran that running at an "off pace" was more tiring than
running at my own pace. Hence, paddle at your own pace.

Now that I have taken up kayak touring, I'm asking whether a slower
cadence, with a longer power stroke is better than a shorter,
higher-cadence power stroke, or whether a low-power but high-cadence
stroke (as with a greenland paddle, I guess) will give me the ability to
paddle all day, cover long distances, but be able to actually enjoy the
area I'm paddling through from beginning to end.

Now this is a slightly different way of asking and the answer is - I don't
honestly know. First of all - when using a Greenland style or a Euro, I
find I use the same candence. Regardless of which paddle I use, I end
up going the same speed as the others I paddle with. I'm not sure why
so many folks consider the GP as requiring a faster cadence.

I prefer a slower cadence so that I use a full rotation. Keeping that
rotation with a fast cadence may be more efficient, but it would mean
going faster, which would be exhausting. Increasing the tempo without
increasing the speed would mean shortening the rotation. That wouldn't
mean using more arm power, just less torso power per stroke.

In terms of the degree to which the paddle blade draws or sweeps, a
shorter stroke, with a catch not so far forward and an exit not so
far aft would add less turning to the kayak and more of the work would
result in forward motion. That along with the higher tempo would
sound more efficient. (More significant with a low stroke than with
a high stroke).

However, it still remains that the most efficient is not necessarily the
least energy use. It may be more efficient to go fast but that may require
output that takes the fun out of kayaking. Similarly, if the most efficient
is too slow, you won't get anywhere.

I'm not aware of anyone really doing any meaningful tests of kayakers in
non-racing (i.e. 500m - 1km sprints) conditions. There's been a lot of
talk, but no data.

Mike

PG wrote:
Many thanks for the helpful input on my previous questions, so maybe I can
ask another one: what makes for a good paddling cadence? I've spent some
time looking at the various videos showing the forward stroke at different
web sites, and they seem to show a very fast cadence (about one complete
stroke rotation every second or even faster), while the printed advice seems
to emphasize torso rotation and gliding between the strokes. Since I tend
to focus on technique, I've been concentrating on a solid front plant (as
far forward as I can without bending the body) around the toes, a steady
rotation while keeping the paddle close to the side of the boat, and
extracting the paddle near the hip. Doing this gives me a cadence of about
one every two seconds or so.

On a measured course, I did 8 km (5 miles) in just over 1 hour (no wind or
current), and on a recent day paddle, I did 32 km (20 miles) in about 4.5
hours (10-20 kph wind headwind, for first half of trip, same as tailwind for
return). My boat is a Current Design Sqall (plastic, 16'6" long) and I'm
using Aquabound "expedition" paddles. All my paddling to date has been on
flat water, although I like to go out when the wind is up. So, is my
cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler? Should I be shortening
the stroke to increase the cadence?



A hint: watch your kayak´s bow. As long as it stays steady, you are
doing fine. If you paddle too fast for your ability or pull too long
strokes, your bow starts going either up and down or moving sideways.
Then it is time to slow down/shorten the pull.

Jaakko

o~
(____/____)
/

....stuff deleted

Now that I have taken up kayak touring, I'm asking whether a slower
cadence, with a longer power stroke is better than a shorter,
higher-cadence power stroke, or whether a low-power but high-cadence
stroke (as with a greenland paddle, I guess) will give me the ability to
paddle all day, cover long distances, but be able to actually enjoy the
area I'm paddling through from beginning to end.

Paul


Paul is onto the basic idea. Muscles fatigue for two reasons:
- overuse from repetitions at a high rate of speed
- overuse from few repetitions against force at low speeds

You can replicate these by doing the following:
- open and close your hand as fast as you can (no resistance)
- climb a steep hill (10 % + grade) on a bicycle

In both cases, you will fatigue within a couple of minutes. Depending upon
conditioning, you may be able to continue to climb the hill, but it is
unlikely that you can continue to open and close your hand after about 2
minutes. After climbing the hill, however, you will need more time to
recover from the cycling than you will from the hand exercise, so there is a
difference in the two types of fatigue (i.e. hard work against low
resistance tends to produce soreness, while fast repetitions do not).

Thus, there is an obvious mid-point of optimal performance before fatigue
sets in. Surprisingly, however, the physical studies suggest that this
optimal performance point results (for most) in a cadence that is too slow
(not a universal truth - I know a few distance cyclists who prefer a cadence
closer to 60, but most, like me, prefer a rate closer to 90). Cyclists and
paddlers will (tend to) find a cadence that is a tad faster than that
optimal performance point. The last study I read suggested that this is
because at the optimal performance point, the muscles fatigue from both
methods of overuse.

Paddlers can adjust cadence by shortening the shaft and narrowing the paddle
blade, with the short shaft having a more drastic effect (a fat blade is
similar to a high gear in that it increases resistance, and weight, making
each stroke a tad more difficult to do). In any case, the right cadence is
fully dependant upon the choice/comfort of the paddler.

Hope this helps (rather than muddies) understanding.

Rick

PG wrote:

On a measured course, I did 8 km (5 miles) in just over 1 hour (no
wind or current), and on a recent day paddle, I did 32 km (20 miles)
in about 4.5 hours (10-20 kph wind headwind, for first half of trip,
same as tailwind for return). My boat is a Current Design Sqall
(plastic, 16'6" long) and I'm using Aquabound "expedition" paddles. All my
paddling to date has been on flat water, although I like to go
out when the wind is up. So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a
"regular" paddler? Should I be shortening the stroke to increase the
cadence?

Lots of advice. Based on the above it looks you are averaging about 4 knots
an hour. I think you are doing pretty good for touring. All I can do is
speak for myself. Some people think I paddle in slow motion but I can hold
4 knots hour after hour. I concentrated on making my paddle stroke very
efficient. This means concentrating on technique while learning. The other
thing I do is GPS all of my kayaking trips and then download the track into
software where I can plot my speed. This way I can critique my trip and the
speed I was making on the various legs.
--
Bill

Brought to you from beautiful Unalaska/Dutch Harbor, Alaska.
N 53° 51.140' W 166° 30.228' (WGS 84)

In theory, any song with a steady rhythm to it's words, or drum beat, would
do for cadence.

Depending on whether you're paddling for fun or for competition, you may be
able to or want to take a player with you for music. Of course, never have
music up so loud that you can't hear cries for help, or someone's heave-to
warnings.

For that reason, lyrical cadence is much better.

in article , Michael
Daly at wrote on 8/24/05 12:23 PM:

On 22-Aug-2005, "PG" wrote:

So, is my cadence a reasonable one for a "regular" paddler?

For a regular paddler, the correct cadence is the one you
are comfortable with.

Mike

That's the first down to earth, reasonable, and useful comment I've ever
seen from you! Congratulations, and keep it up.

There are as many answers to your question as there paddlers. I missed the
initial comments, but allow me to ad my own. A flat water, olympic class
paddler going 500 to 1000 meters will have a cadence much faster than a
person in an ocean kaytak paddling in the San Juans.

I don't know how long your paddle is. A longer one will turn a slower
cadence than a short one. Olympic paddle used to be 220 cm + or -. The
wing paddle has changed it a tad. Yes... catch as far forward as possible.
Yes, rotate, so as if you had a broomstick straped on your shoulder blades
it would scribe an arc of almost 90 degrees. . Yes glide is important. A
momentary pause in the stroke just before lowering the blade to initiate the
stroke will give you more distance per stroke without slowing the boat.

A few other ideas: push open handed with the top hand as a shot put, and do
so forward towards the bow of the boat. The top hand may cross centerline
of the boat, but should not pass the opposite side of the boat.

Just for the fun of it, Why does a racing scull go faster when the oars are
out of the water, and slower with the blasdes in the water? (no it is not
drag)... Mike