Scooby Doo wrote:
DSK wrote in
:

What "value" is being negated?

The value as wildlife refuge & habitat.


Scooby Doo wrote:
The other NINETY-TWO PERCENT REMAINS UNTOUCHED.

And if the construction cuts migration routes, then the whole rest of
it might as well not be there.

As I said, the caribou population has TRIPLED since the Alaska pipeline
went in. So please don't dust off moronic arguments that were
categorically refuted a generation ago.

That isn't true. And in fact all of the biologists who've studied
caribou around Prudhoe Bay say that developing ANWR will cause a
decline in the Porcupine Caribou Herd.


"In summary, 4 research-based ecological arguments indicate
that the Porcupine caribou herd may be particularly
sensitive to development within the 1002 portion of the
calving ground:

Low productivity of the Porcupine caribou herd - The
Porcupine caribou herd has had the lowest capacity for
growth among Alaska barren-ground herds ... the Porcupine
caribou herd has less capacity to accommodate ... stresses
than other Alaska ... herds. Any absolute effect of
development would be expected to have a larger relative
effect on the Porcupine caribou herd than on the other
herds. For example, an approximate 4.6% reduction in calf
survival, all else held equal, would be enough to prevent
Porcupine caribou herd growth under the best conditions
observed to date ... A similar reduction in calf survival,
all else held equal, for other Alaska barren-ground herds,
however, would not be sufficient to arrest their growth.

Demonstrated shift of concentrated calving areas of the
Central Arctic caribou herd away from petroleum development
infrastructures - ... the Porcupine caribou herd caribou
will avoid roads and pipelines during calving ... Avoidance
of petroleum development infrastructure by parturient
caribou ... is the most consistently observed behavioral
response of caribou to development.

Lack of high-quality alternate calving habitat - ... When
snow cover reduced access by females to the Arctic Refuge
coastal plain and 1002 Area for calving, calf survival
during June was 19% lower than when they could calve on the
Arctic Refuge coastal plain and 1002 Area.

Strong link between calf survival and free movement of
females - ... data predict that June calf survival for the
Porcupine caribou herd will decline if the calving grounds
are displaced ... is a function of displacement: 1) reducing
access to the highest quality habitats for foraging and 2)
increasing exposure to risk of mortality from predation
during calving (first 3 weeks of June).

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/1002/section3part5.htm

And here's what the head biologist for the Procupine Caribou
Herd studies said in testimony to Congress:

"Considering of the importance of the Porcupine Caribou Herd
to indigenous people in United States and Canada, and the
high likelihood that petroleum leasing and development would
cause long-term harm to those caribou, 21 arctic caribou
biologists from the US and Canada signed a letter to former
President Clinton urging permanent protection of the
Porcupine Herd calving grounds from development. Over 500
prominent North American scientists signed a letter to
President Bush urging protection of the Arctic Refuge
Coastal Plain to safeguard caribou and other natural
resource values. Protection of the Coastal Plain has also
been endorsed by the Alaska Chapter of The Wildlife Society,
the American Society of Mammalogists, and the Cooper
Ornithological Union. Copies of the letters and resolutions
are attached. I urge Congress to heed the advice of these
eminent wildlife biologists and ecologists and not allow
petroleum development on the Arctic Refuge Coastal Plain."
Ken Whitten's statement to Congress
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife/ar...ws/whitten.pdf

And even if it doesn't, it appears the loonylefty mantra has changed
from "People, not profits" to "Caribou, not people".

In fact the purpose of protecting the Porcupine Caribou Herd is specifically
to protect the Gwich'in culture. It *is* a people issue.

And I'm sure you can scan and post a photograh of one such species from
the last trip you took to ANWR. Here, I'll provide room for you to post
that pictu

http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson/anwr/

As I said, since you can't rationally debate ANWR, you're useless.

I can. And I'll drown you in facts that can't be disputed too. ;-)

The problem is actually that *you* don't have a clue what you are
talking about. And I'll be happy to set the record straight.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

"Bill McKee" wrote:

The wildlife loves the Alaska Pipeline. Get near it when it is cold. And
seems as if the caribou have increased.

Where to you hear fantasies like that?

The Porcupine Caribou Herd has decreased.

The Pipeline is insulated, no animals "Get near it when it is cold".

The Pipeline slit the calving of the Central Arctic Caribou Herd
in half with a detrimental effect for those on one side.

Nelleman, C., and R.D. Cameron. 1996. Terrain preferences
of calving caribou exposed to petroleum development.
Arctic 49:23-28.

Nellemann, C., and R.D. Cameron. 1998. Cumulative impacts
of an evolving oilfield complex on calving caribou. Can.
J. Zool. 76:1425-1430.

This might well be "rocket science", but it isn't unknown.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Scooby Doo wrote:
The wildlife loves the Alaska Pipeline. Get near it when it is cold.
And seems as if the caribou have increased.

Don't confuse MoveOn.org sycophants with facts.

Try citing something factual which supports that nonsense then!

It isn't true, and there are 30+ years of caribou biology studies
done on the North Slope since oil was discovered, none of which
says that is true. In fact several studies say that is the opposite
of the truth.

Cameron RD, KR Whitten, and WT Smith. 1981. Distribution and
movements of caribou in relation to the Kuparuk Development
Area. 3rd Interim Rep to ARCO. 25pp.

Smith WT and RD Cameron. 1983. Responses of caribou to
petroleum development on Alaska's Arctic Slope. Acta Zool
Fenn. 175:43-45.

Whitten KR and RD Cameron. 1983. Movements of collared
caribou in relation to petroleum development on the Arctic
Slope of Alaska. Can Field-Nat. 97:143-146.

Dau, J.R., and R.D. Cameron. 1986. Effects of a road
system on caribou distribution during calving.
Rangifer, Special Issue No. 1:95-101.

Dau JR and RD Cameron. 1986. Responses of barren-ground
caribou to petroleum development near Milne Point,
Alaska. Final Rep to Conoco, Inc and Continental Pipeline
Company. 25pp.

Smith WT and RD Cameron. 1986. Distribution and movements of
caribou in relation to the Kuparuk Development Area. Alaska
Dep Fish and Game. Fed Aid in Wildl Restor. Final Rep. Proj
W-21-2, W-22-1, W-22-2, W-22-3, W-22-4, W-22-5. Job
3.30R. 47pp.

Cameron, R.D., D.J. Reed, J.R. Dau, and W.T. Smith.
1992. Redistribution of calving caribou in response
to oil field development on the arctic slope of Alaska.
Arctic. 45:338-342.

Smith WT, RD Cameron, and DJ Reed. 1994. Distribution and
movements of caribou in relation to roads and pipelines,
Kuparuk Development Area, 1978-90. Alaska Dep Fish and Game,
Wildl Tech Bull 12. 54pp.

Cameron RD, EA Lenart, DJ Reed, KR Whitten, and WT
Smith. 1995. Abundance and movements of caribou in the
oilfield complex near Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. Rangifer. 15:3-7.

Cameron, R.D. 1995. Distribution and productivity of
the Central Arctic Herd in relation to petroleum
development: case history studies with a nutritional
perspective. Fed. Aid in Wildl. Resp. Final Rept.
AK. Dept. Fish and Game. Juneau. 35pp.

Nelleman, C., and R.D. Cameron. 1996. Terrain preferences
of calving caribou exposed to petroleum development.
Arctic 49:23-28.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
"Bill McKee" wrote:
The wildlife loves the Alaska Pipeline. Get near it when it is cold. And
seems as if the caribou have increased.

Where to you hear fantasies like that?

The Porcupine Caribou Herd has decreased.

The Pipeline is insulated, no animals "Get near it when it is cold".

The Pipeline slit the calving of the Central Arctic Caribou Herd
in half with a detrimental effect for those on one side.

Nelleman, C., and R.D. Cameron. 1996. Terrain preferences
of calving caribou exposed to petroleum development.
Arctic 49:23-28.

Nellemann, C., and R.D. Cameron. 1998. Cumulative impacts
of an evolving oilfield complex on calving caribou. Can.
J. Zool. 76:1425-1430.

This might well be "rocket science", but it isn't unknown.



You're wasting your time. This newsgroup is full of right-wing
primitives who:

* oppose any reports, news, or science that interferes with the ability
of corporate America to make a killing,

* typically support whatever the idiot now occupying the White House
believes,

* think the Exxon Valdez catastrophe was a minor spill, and

* typically think "creationism" is as valid as Darwin's theories, and
can be "proven" "scientifically."


I'm not kidding.

"Scooby Doo" wrote in message
...
"Harry.Krause" wrote in
ink.net:

I'm sure one of the Bush-hogs will tell us that when adjusted for
inflation, we're actually paying less for gasoline now than at any
time in recent memory.

And the fools probably believe it, too.

A "fool" is someone who won't accept a compromise where he gets more than
92% of what he wants. ANWR is 19 million acres. The area identified as
the largest untapped petroleum supply in North America is 1.5 million
acres, or 7.9% of the 19 million. The proposal to open that 1.5 million
acres would create about 700,000 jobs, decrease our dependence on Middle
Eastern and other unstable foreign sources of energy, and allow 92.1% of
the wildlife refuge to remain untouched.

But supporters of alcoholic murderers like Ted Kennedy won't make that
compromise, because the thought of Schlumberger's CEO getting a bigger
Christmas (oh, excuse me, "Holiday") bonus keeps them awake at night.

Feeding the village idiot, and posting OT...

*ploink*

--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/

"Harry.Krause" wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
"Bill McKee" wrote:
The wildlife loves the Alaska Pipeline. Get near it when it is cold. And
seems as if the caribou have increased.
Where to you hear fantasies like that?
The Porcupine Caribou Herd has decreased.
The Pipeline is insulated, no animals "Get near it when it is
cold".
The Pipeline slit the calving of the Central Arctic Caribou
Herd
in half with a detrimental effect for those on one side.
Nelleman, C., and R.D. Cameron. 1996. Terrain preferences
of calving caribou exposed to petroleum development.
Arctic 49:23-28.
Nellemann, C., and R.D. Cameron. 1998. Cumulative impacts
of an evolving oilfield complex on calving caribou. Can.
J. Zool. 76:1425-1430.
This might well be "rocket science", but it isn't unknown.


You're wasting your time. This newsgroup is full of right-wing
primitives who:

* oppose any reports, news, or science that interferes with the
* ability of corporate America to make a killing,

* typically support whatever the idiot now occupying the White
* House believes,

* think the Exxon Valdez catastrophe was a minor spill, and

* typically think "creationism" is as valid as Darwin's
* theories, and can be "proven" "scientifically."

I'm not kidding.

I think you are right. I was just sort of trolling for a sucker
among them. It's fun to slap a few facts on 'em, just to see
if the squirm in a new way.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry.Krause" wrote in message
...
Scooby Doo wrote:

As I said, since you can't rationally debate ANWR, you're useless.


Yet another brain-dead reich-winger for rec.boats.

Seems you can't rationally debate either.

BWAAAHAAAAA!!!! Bill has been proven dead wrong AGAIN!!!! You're
bull**** about ANWR, and the caribou herds have been blown totally out
of the water by one single person!!!!!!!

Jack Redington wrote:
wrote:

Jack Redington wrote:

St wrote:


Whhat gas going for on the water throughout the US. $3.98 for premium,
downstate NY. No regular available at my marina





I was charged $2.49 about two weeks ago at Hartwell marina on Lake
Hartwell (Ga side) A marina that was closer wanted $2.79 (89o)

Capt Jack R..


Jack, is that the marina that's close to Tugaloo State Park?


The one nearest Tugaloo State Park is Lighthouse marina (near the I-85
bridge) They are at $2.79

That's the one I was thinking of!

. That is real close ot our place on Gumlog
creek. I fact I can see Tugaloo State park from my dock.

Have a friend that just sold a place in Fair Play, SC, and moved over
to the GA side quite close to there, he's having a new dock put in,
real nice house.

I hope I find myself wandering down by the dam when it comes fill-up
time again :-) Hartwell marina is by Hart State park in Hartwell Ga.

Do you ever go over to "The Island"? Met a lot of interesting folks
there the last time I was there.

On 11 Aug 2005 07:10:43 -0700, wrote:


Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry.Krause" wrote in message
...
Scooby Doo wrote:

As I said, since you can't rationally debate ANWR, you're useless.


Yet another brain-dead reich-winger for rec.boats.

Seems you can't rationally debate either.

BWAAAHAAAAA!!!! Bill has been proven dead wrong AGAIN!!!! You're
bull**** about ANWR, and the caribou herds have been blown totally out
of the water by one single person!!!!!!!

Do you know for a fact he's single, or is that just another wild, unfounded
allegation?

--
John H.
On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD

Scooby Doo wrote:
wrote in
roups.com:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Harry.Krause" wrote in message
...
Scooby Doo wrote:

As I said, since you can't rationally debate ANWR, you're useless.


Yet another brain-dead reich-winger for rec.boats.

Seems you can't rationally debate either.

BWAAAHAAAAA!!!! Bill has been proven dead wrong AGAIN!!!! You're
bull**** about ANWR, and the caribou herds have been blown totally out
of the water by one single person!!!!!!!

You have to love a retard who doesn't know the difference between a
possessive and a contraction. Actually, you don't.

So spelling flames are you're sorry replacement for rational debate?
Your not going to win points with that silliness... ;-)

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)