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Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
I've got a problem with the trim on my boat.
If I move the switch up or down, I can hear the relay switches click (I believe that they are relay switches) but the motor does not move up or down. In the throttle, I have a green wire, blue wire, and a red wire. I tracked that down to a box on the boat. The blue and green wire connect into separate relay switches, with the same color wire going back out and to the trim motor. The red wire connects to a panel in the box. My experiments to try to correct the problem: If I place the main wires to the trim motor onto the battery, it makes the motor trim work, green + blue - makes the motor go down, blue + green - makes the motor go up. With it all hooked back up.... if I connect the red wire from the trim switch to the negative on the battery.... and then connect a wire from the negative to a bare spot on the green wire AND another wire from the negative to a bare spot on the blue wire.... the trim switch makes the motor move up and down just like it is supposed to.... BUT the wires got HOT HOT HOT and some of the insulation burned.... spark etc.... so I stopped, decided that I really should see of someone would offer a suggestion. Again, if it is all hooked up properly (So I believe) I just hear the relay switches click but no movement on the motor. I REALLY would appreciate some assistance! |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
What kind of motor are you talking about??
-- Bill Chesapeake, Va "Fish4Fun" wrote in message ... I've got a problem with the trim on my boat. If I move the switch up or down, I can hear the relay switches click (I believe that they are relay switches) but the motor does not move up or down. In the throttle, I have a green wire, blue wire, and a red wire. I tracked that down to a box on the boat. The blue and green wire connect into separate relay switches, with the same color wire going back out and to the trim motor. The red wire connects to a panel in the box. My experiments to try to correct the problem: If I place the main wires to the trim motor onto the battery, it makes the motor trim work, green + blue - makes the motor go down, blue + green - makes the motor go up. With it all hooked back up.... if I connect the red wire from the trim switch to the negative on the battery.... and then connect a wire from the negative to a bare spot on the green wire AND another wire from the negative to a bare spot on the blue wire.... the trim switch makes the motor move up and down just like it is supposed to.... BUT the wires got HOT HOT HOT and some of the insulation burned.... spark etc.... so I stopped, decided that I really should see of someone would offer a suggestion. Again, if it is all hooked up properly (So I believe) I just hear the relay switches click but no movement on the motor. I REALLY would appreciate some assistance! |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Its a Johnson 140hp outboard
"WRH" wrote in message news:yLDkc.36055$f_5.23360@lakeread01... What kind of motor are you talking about?? -- Bill Chesapeake, Va "Fish4Fun" wrote in message ... I've got a problem with the trim on my boat. If I move the switch up or down, I can hear the relay switches click (I believe that they are relay switches) but the motor does not move up or down. In the throttle, I have a green wire, blue wire, and a red wire. I tracked that down to a box on the boat. The blue and green wire connect into separate relay switches, with the same color wire going back out and to the trim motor. The red wire connects to a panel in the box. My experiments to try to correct the problem: If I place the main wires to the trim motor onto the battery, it makes the motor trim work, green + blue - makes the motor go down, blue + green - makes the motor go up. With it all hooked back up.... if I connect the red wire from the trim switch to the negative on the battery.... and then connect a wire from the negative to a bare spot on the green wire AND another wire from the negative to a bare spot on the blue wire.... the trim switch makes the motor move up and down just like it is supposed to.... BUT the wires got HOT HOT HOT and some of the insulation burned.... spark etc.... so I stopped, decided that I really should see of someone would offer a suggestion. Again, if it is all hooked up properly (So I believe) I just hear the relay switches click but no movement on the motor. I REALLY would appreciate some assistance! |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Your wiring diagram is on the way via email I hope it was a valid address,
let me know if you need more help Mick "Fish4Fun" wrote in message ... I've got a problem with the trim on my boat. If I move the switch up or down, I can hear the relay switches click (I believe that they are relay switches) but the motor does not move up or down. In the throttle, I have a green wire, blue wire, and a red wire. I tracked that down to a box on the boat. The blue and green wire connect into separate relay switches, with the same color wire going back out and to the trim motor. The red wire connects to a panel in the box. My experiments to try to correct the problem: If I place the main wires to the trim motor onto the battery, it makes the motor trim work, green + blue - makes the motor go down, blue + green - makes the motor go up. With it all hooked back up.... if I connect the red wire from the trim switch to the negative on the battery.... and then connect a wire from the negative to a bare spot on the green wire AND another wire from the negative to a bare spot on the blue wire.... the trim switch makes the motor move up and down just like it is supposed to.... BUT the wires got HOT HOT HOT and some of the insulation burned.... spark etc.... so I stopped, decided that I really should see of someone would offer a suggestion. Again, if it is all hooked up properly (So I believe) I just hear the relay switches click but no movement on the motor. I REALLY would appreciate some assistance! |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Fish4Fun wrote:
Its a Johnson 140hp outboard "WRH" wrote in message news:yLDkc.36055$f_5.23360@lakeread01... What kind of motor are you talking about?? -- Bill Chesapeake, Va "Fish4Fun" wrote in message ... I've got a problem with the trim on my boat. If I move the switch up or down, I can hear the relay switches click (I believe that they are relay switches) but the motor does not move up or down. In the throttle, I have a green wire, blue wire, and a red wire. I tracked that down to a box on the boat. The blue and green wire connect into separate relay switches, with the same color wire going back out and to the trim motor. The red wire connects to a panel in the box. My experiments to try to correct the problem: If I place the main wires to the trim motor onto the battery, it makes the motor trim work, green + blue - makes the motor go down, blue + green - makes the motor go up. With it all hooked back up.... if I connect the red wire from the trim switch to the negative on the battery.... and then connect a wire from the negative to a bare spot on the green wire AND another wire from the negative to a bare spot on the blue wire.... the trim switch makes the motor move up and down just like it is supposed to.... BUT the wires got HOT HOT HOT and some of the insulation burned.... spark etc.... so I stopped, decided that I really should see of someone would offer a suggestion. Again, if it is all hooked up properly (So I believe) I just hear the relay switches click but no movement on the motor. I REALLY would appreciate some assistance! The relay's contacts commonly fail on that T&T system. I see you now know why they use relays for polarity switching instead of running all that current to the trim switch! The relays are OMC part #582472(some are #584416). I carry a spare so that we can always get the motor up or down as needed. You will probably find that only one has failed - an armature has broken or siezed. Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
The relays do go bad.
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Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
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Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Thanks, I will check them out... I appreciate your response!
"trainfan1" wrote in message ... Fish4Fun wrote: Its a Johnson 140hp outboard "WRH" wrote in message news:yLDkc.36055$f_5.23360@lakeread01... What kind of motor are you talking about?? -- Bill Chesapeake, Va "Fish4Fun" wrote in message ... I've got a problem with the trim on my boat. If I move the switch up or down, I can hear the relay switches click (I believe that they are relay switches) but the motor does not move up or down. In the throttle, I have a green wire, blue wire, and a red wire. I tracked that down to a box on the boat. The blue and green wire connect into separate relay switches, with the same color wire going back out and to the trim motor. The red wire connects to a panel in the box. My experiments to try to correct the problem: If I place the main wires to the trim motor onto the battery, it makes the motor trim work, green + blue - makes the motor go down, blue + green - makes the motor go up. With it all hooked back up.... if I connect the red wire from the trim switch to the negative on the battery.... and then connect a wire from the negative to a bare spot on the green wire AND another wire from the negative to a bare spot on the blue wire.... the trim switch makes the motor move up and down just like it is supposed to.... BUT the wires got HOT HOT HOT and some of the insulation burned.... spark etc.... so I stopped, decided that I really should see of someone would offer a suggestion. Again, if it is all hooked up properly (So I believe) I just hear the relay switches click but no movement on the motor. I REALLY would appreciate some assistance! The relay's contacts commonly fail on that T&T system. I see you now know why they use relays for polarity switching instead of running all that current to the trim switch! The relays are OMC part #582472(some are #584416). I carry a spare so that we can always get the motor up or down as needed. You will probably find that only one has failed - an armature has broken or siezed. Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
In the process of nursing my old Mariner through 12 years and 3000 hours I went
through several of these solenoids. The last ones I bought were sold as lawn tractor starter solenoids at the BORG and they lasted a lot longer than the "official" mercury unit. It was an exact fit and about half price. Merc/OMC does not make these things, they are bought "off the shelf" from a relay maker, put in a logo'ed box, marked up egregiously and sold as an "outboard" part. In their defense, it is not cheap to maintain a part logistics stream, stocking every part in a motor but you don't need to play. BTW have you ever bought a bolt at a motor dealer? In one of my rebuilding projects I replaced every fastener I pulled out. I just dropped them on the counter at an industrial fastener place and saved about $50, getting superior bolts. PS, don't forget the internet. I needed some bolts that were unobtanium in the US in stainless (commie metric stuff) but were off the shelf in Germany. Even with shipping they were a lot cheaper than Merc "special order" and I got them faster. |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Greg wrote:
In the process of nursing my old Mariner through 12 years and 3000 hours I went through several of these solenoids. The last ones I bought were sold as lawn tractor starter solenoids at the BORG and they lasted a lot longer than the "official" mercury unit. It was an exact fit and about half price. AND not ignition protected. Merc/OMC does not make these things, they are bought "off the shelf" from a relay maker, put in a logo'ed box, marked up egregiously and sold as an "outboard" part. Generally not true. Electrical parts for outboards are usually built to spec, yes, often by an outside supplier, and are USCG ignition protected. They absolutely resemble regular automotive or industrial non ignition protected parts and will provide the same function but it would be very irresponsible for an outboard manufacturer or service professional to use the generic (non-marine specific) parts. Technically, you could not pass a Courtesy Inspection with the generic parts, but no Power Squadron or Coast Guard member has ever checked much beyond fuel containment, ventilation, and intake spark arrestors on our boats for ignition protection. The parts on this unit are 5-prong cube-style relays and are available in the aftermarket. I've never seen one on a lawn tractor. Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
.... USCG ignition protected....
This is under an outboard cover NOT in a bilge. BTW the Mercury unit DOES NOT have any USCG approval numbers on it either so it is no more "approved" than something you get from the auto parts store. If it doesn't say USCG and a number it isn't USCG approved to a boarding officer. If you take these apart they are made exactly the same (same covers, same gasket) except the lawn tractor has a bigger contact pad. |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
These are round deals with 1/4-20 lugs sticking out the sides and smaller 10-24
coil terminals |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Greg wrote:
... USCG ignition protected.... This is under an outboard cover NOT in a bilge. BTW the Mercury unit DOES NOT have any USCG approval numbers on it either so it is no more "approved" than something you get from the auto parts store. If it doesn't say USCG and a number it isn't USCG approved to a boarding officer. If you take these apart they are made exactly the same (same covers, same gasket) except the lawn tractor has a bigger contact pad. Maybe, but the OMC relays are mounted in a relay/connection box on board the boat, and usually in the vicinity of fuel tanks and the battery(ies). Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Maybe, but the OMC relays are mounted in a relay/connection box on board
the boat, and usually in the vicinity of fuel tanks and the battery(ies). No wonder they went out of business ;-) |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Greg wrote:
Maybe, but the OMC relays are mounted in a relay/connection box on board the boat, and usually in the vicinity of fuel tanks and the battery(ies). No wonder they went out of business ;-) The location is up to the installer, not the factory. Our 1981 V-4, for example, has never had a relay fail, but it was installed high & dry and is stored inside. Our 1973 V-4, with the "lawn mower-automotive" type relays, is all original too, although mounted lower in the Glastron and next to the battery, it too is always indoors or in a hoist. Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
The location is up to the installer, not the factory
I find that strange. One of the advantages of an outboard is to keep everything under one cover, with minimal connections between the motor and the boat. This sounds like they are taking "arcy, sparky" stuff that could be safely out behind the transom and putting it in the bilge. |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Greg wrote:
The location is up to the installer, not the factory I find that strange. One of the advantages of an outboard is to keep everything under one cover, with minimal connections between the motor and the boat. This sounds like they are taking "arcy, sparky" stuff that could be safely out behind the transom and putting it in the bilge. Power T&T was optional. The object is to reduce the weight of the outboard itself. Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
I have determined that the relay switches are good.
As I was sitting here.... I got to thinking about the possibility that there may not be a good ground on the trim motor itself.... I got this thought after looking at the following diagram of a trim wiring circuit. Its located at the very bottom of the page... scroll down, the second image: http://www.brokeboats.com/trim.html What do you think? "Fish4Fun" wrote in message ... I've got a problem with the trim on my boat. If I move the switch up or down, I can hear the relay switches click (I believe that they are relay switches) but the motor does not move up or down. In the throttle, I have a green wire, blue wire, and a red wire. I tracked that down to a box on the boat. The blue and green wire connect into separate relay switches, with the same color wire going back out and to the trim motor. The red wire connects to a panel in the box. My experiments to try to correct the problem: If I place the main wires to the trim motor onto the battery, it makes the motor trim work, green + blue - makes the motor go down, blue + green - makes the motor go up. With it all hooked back up.... if I connect the red wire from the trim switch to the negative on the battery.... and then connect a wire from the negative to a bare spot on the green wire AND another wire from the negative to a bare spot on the blue wire.... the trim switch makes the motor move up and down just like it is supposed to.... BUT the wires got HOT HOT HOT and some of the insulation burned.... spark etc.... so I stopped, decided that I really should see of someone would offer a suggestion. Again, if it is all hooked up properly (So I believe) I just hear the relay switches click but no movement on the motor. I REALLY would appreciate some assistance! |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Fish4Fun wrote:
I have determined that the relay switches are good. As I was sitting here.... I got to thinking about the possibility that there may not be a good ground on the trim motor itself.... I got this thought after looking at the following diagram of a trim wiring circuit. Its located at the very bottom of the page... scroll down, the second image: http://www.brokeboats.com/trim.html What do you think? This diagram is for the older 3 wire system. I had assumed you had a 2 wire trim pump based on your posts, which uses the relays for current reversing in addition to load handling. With the 2 wire system, each lead takes a turn being "ground" depending on whether you are running the pump "up" or "down". So, what year is your outboard, and is it a 2 wire or 3 wire pump motor? Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Hi,
Yes, it is an older boat... an 84 Welcraft 18' fisherman with a 83 140hp johnson outboard. The trim switch indeed does have three wires, blue red and green all with white stripes. Keith "trainfan1" wrote in message ... Fish4Fun wrote: I have determined that the relay switches are good. As I was sitting here.... I got to thinking about the possibility that there may not be a good ground on the trim motor itself.... I got this thought after looking at the following diagram of a trim wiring circuit. Its located at the very bottom of the page... scroll down, the second image: http://www.brokeboats.com/trim.html What do you think? This diagram is for the older 3 wire system. I had assumed you had a 2 wire trim pump based on your posts, which uses the relays for current reversing in addition to load handling. With the 2 wire system, each lead takes a turn being "ground" depending on whether you are running the pump "up" or "down". So, what year is your outboard, and is it a 2 wire or 3 wire pump motor? Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Fish4Fun wrote:
Hi, Yes, it is an older boat... an 84 Welcraft 18' fisherman with a 83 140hp johnson outboard. The trim switch indeed does have three wires, blue red and green all with white stripes. Keith "trainfan1" wrote in message ... Fish4Fun wrote: I have determined that the relay switches are good. As I was sitting here.... I got to thinking about the possibility that there may not be a good ground on the trim motor itself.... I got this thought after looking at the following diagram of a trim wiring circuit. Its located at the very bottom of the page... scroll down, the second image: http://www.brokeboats.com/trim.html What do you think? This diagram is for the older 3 wire system. I had assumed you had a 2 wire trim pump based on your posts, which uses the relays for current reversing in addition to load handling. With the 2 wire system, each lead takes a turn being "ground" depending on whether you are running the pump "up" or "down". So, what year is your outboard, and is it a 2 wire or 3 wire pump motor? Rob 1983 is a 2 wire pump motor. They are all 3 wire trim switches. No "ground" is necessary to the pump. How did you determine that the relays are good? Your problem still points to the relays. I will locate a wiring diagram and try to post it... or, is your email address accurate? Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Fish4Fun wrote:
I'd sure appreciate that. I just figured that since they were clicking when they were sent a signal.... they must be good. I have one spare that I slipped in, and that responded the same.... so... I just figured :) I suppose that it wouldn't be too difficult to just purchase two brand new ones and see what that does. I certainly would appreciate the wiring diagram though, above is my true email address. Thanks! "trainfan1" wrote in message ... Fish4Fun wrote: Hi, Yes, it is an older boat... an 84 Welcraft 18' fisherman with a 83 140hp johnson outboard. The trim switch indeed does have three wires, blue red and green all with white stripes. Keith "trainfan1" wrote in message ... Fish4Fun wrote: I have determined that the relay switches are good. As I was sitting here.... I got to thinking about the possibility that there may not be a good ground on the trim motor itself.... I got this thought after looking at the following diagram of a trim wiring circuit. Its located at the very bottom of the page... scroll down, the second image: http://www.brokeboats.com/trim.html What do you think? This diagram is for the older 3 wire system. I had assumed you had a 2 wire trim pump based on your posts, which uses the relays for current reversing in addition to load handling. With the 2 wire system, each lead takes a turn being "ground" depending on whether you are running the pump "up" or "down". So, what year is your outboard, and is it a 2 wire or 3 wire pump motor? Rob 1983 is a 2 wire pump motor. They are all 3 wire trim switches. No "ground" is necessary to the pump. How did you determine that the relays are good? Your problem still points to the relays. I will locate a wiring diagram and try to post it... or, is your email address accurate? Rob The relays will continue to "click" long after the contacts have gone bad. Try your third relay in place of the other one. Diagram has been sent to you. Rob |
Need a suggestion for the trim wiring on my boat
Fish4Fun wrote:
I'd sure appreciate that. I just figured that since they were clicking when they were sent a signal.... they must be good. I have one spare that I slipped in, and that responded the same.... so... I just figured :) I suppose that it wouldn't be too difficult to just purchase two brand new ones and see what that does. I certainly would appreciate the wiring diagram though, above is my true email address. Thanks! Also posted he http://tinyurl.com/2m8z3 Rob |
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