Blown head gasket or what...?
Hi All,
I own a Bayliner with a V8 OMC 5L engine. I noticed, when running the engine with hose attached, that the exhaust fumes contain quite a lot of steam. That was only when the outdrive was not fully at 90 degree extension (about 70 degrees). What was coming out of the propeller was steam and very warm water. The engine seemed to get to this point after about 2 min. That seemed unusually fast for me to start producing steam. After shutting the engine down there was quite a bit of steam coming out (like a big steam puff).Tried with fully extended outdrive and it seemed to be better. Water coming out was a notch cooler and not much steam could be seen. I wasn't sure and started suspecting blown head gasket or a block crack (God forbid...!). I just tested compression on all cylinders and it looks like that: cyl. 2,4,6,8 - 150/140/170/160 cyl. 1,3,5,7 - 150/155/155/160. Before winterizing I noticed a bit of water spray when cranking without spark plugs coming out of cyl.4. I thought that it was rain water that somehow made its way into the cyl.4 through uncovered carb. Presence of water in cyl. 4 plus slightly lower compression would indicate something is wrong here. But in this case wouldn't my reading be lower then 140? Seems pretty close to normal reading. What else could or should I expect in terms of "surprises"? Is compression test a good way to diagnose blown head gasket or are there better ways to find out? Are my assumptions right? What is the most likely scenario (best and worst case) in tearms of possible upcoming repairs? How else can I find out about my engine condition before taking it apart? PS. the engine starts and runs OK, just like nothing happened. |
Blown head gasket or what...?
1.) have you checked the oil. if you have a blown head gasket you will end up with water in the oil see if its milky in color on the dip stick. 2.) Your impeller might not be up to par to keep the engine cool. What was the engine temp? 3.) was the water coming out at a study flow from the exhaust or was it all steam and not water or very little? 4.) the water "spray" you got if a very good chance it came from the water that got in to a uncovered Carb. Careful there you might have something rusted up in the intake area. |
Blown head gasket or what...?
"Proxy" wrote in message able.rogers.com... Hi All, I own a Bayliner with a V8 OMC 5L engine. I noticed, when running the engine with hose attached, that the exhaust fumes contain quite a lot of steam. That is not unusual or unexpected. PS. the engine starts and runs OK, just like nothing happened. I think that you may be concerned over nothing. Steam coming from the exhaust is not unusual. The combustion of gasoline produces a lot of water vapor. On a car the exhaust is usually so hot that the water comes out in the form of superheated steam and you don't see it. An exception is right after you start and the exhaust pipe is still cold. On your boat, the water cooling of the exhaust cools it down enough that the superheated steam cools to become saturated steam and then you see it. In addition, the water is cooling very hot exhaust manifolds and even more steam is generated. When you run the boat on the lake the saturated steam enters the water, cools and condenses so that you don't see it while idling. Your compression results are high enough that I can assure you that you don't have a blown head gasket. Based on what you have described I don't see any indication of there being a problem. Put your boat back together and go boating! Rod |
Blown head gasket or what...?
1. The oil is not clear but rather milky. The oil level is much higher then
it should be - about 2 inches on a dipstick higher then "full". This is the first oil after reviving the engine (see below) so I'm not sure whether to attribute milkiness to water leftovers or blown gasket. the oil level though is something new. 2. checked the impeller and looks fine, not damaged , no burn marks or anything unusual 3. the water was coming out quite steadily also steam was present 4. there is rust in the intake below carb, there is also a rust streak from s. plug no.4 downwards indicating the water could have been leaking from this plug socket 5. I bought this boat with a seized engine, I soaked it, unseized, ran it several times (never on water), starts and runs OK. When I unseized it I cranked out lot of water from the cylinders (min. 1 liter). What I did was a great success, no mechanic has ever given me any hope. It has stunned everyone. I also unseized another boat of mine (20 ft.) using the same method. Engine runs but the compression is at 60/70 on 2 cyl. so I know I need to hone and replace rings on it, to say the least. I took both as a challenge, bought them and had them running within a month. The idea was to keep both in different locations so I could enjoy some diversity while vacationing. What baffles me is that except for compression test (unexpectedly high) I have all indications of blown head gasket. I have removed risers and manifolds, cleaned them to perfection, installed new gaskets. If it was a riser gasket water concentration would be rather equally spread over the side rather then 1 cylinder Since this is a boat engine I cannot pressurize cooling system easily. I thought of pressurizing the suspected cylinder but couldn't find any inexpensive tool or method of doing it. |
Blown head gasket or what...?
Rod, there is a little more as to this engine history than I initially
included. I did not want to overcomplicate the picture. Please see my other response and state what you think. It is a problem of compression test results vs all other indications that makes me wonder. I appreciate any input. "Rod McInnis" wrote in message ... "Proxy" wrote in message able.rogers.com... Hi All, I own a Bayliner with a V8 OMC 5L engine. I noticed, when running the engine with hose attached, that the exhaust fumes contain quite a lot of steam. That is not unusual or unexpected. PS. the engine starts and runs OK, just like nothing happened. I think that you may be concerned over nothing. Steam coming from the exhaust is not unusual. The combustion of gasoline produces a lot of water vapor. On a car the exhaust is usually so hot that the water comes out in the form of superheated steam and you don't see it. An exception is right after you start and the exhaust pipe is still cold. On your boat, the water cooling of the exhaust cools it down enough that the superheated steam cools to become saturated steam and then you see it. In addition, the water is cooling very hot exhaust manifolds and even more steam is generated. When you run the boat on the lake the saturated steam enters the water, cools and condenses so that you don't see it while idling. Your compression results are high enough that I can assure you that you don't have a blown head gasket. Based on what you have described I don't see any indication of there being a problem. Put your boat back together and go boating! Rod |
Blown head gasket or what...?
Check for cracks on the sides of the lifter valley of the block. That is a
common point for cracks when the engine is not winterized and freezes. You can pressure check the system by clamping something inside the hoses. "Proxy" wrote in message .rogers.com... 1. The oil is not clear but rather milky. The oil level is much higher then it should be - about 2 inches on a dipstick higher then "full". This is the first oil after reviving the engine (see below) so I'm not sure whether to attribute milkiness to water leftovers or blown gasket. the oil level though is something new. 2. checked the impeller and looks fine, not damaged , no burn marks or anything unusual 3. the water was coming out quite steadily also steam was present 4. there is rust in the intake below carb, there is also a rust streak from s. plug no.4 downwards indicating the water could have been leaking from this plug socket 5. I bought this boat with a seized engine, I soaked it, unseized, ran it several times (never on water), starts and runs OK. When I unseized it I cranked out lot of water from the cylinders (min. 1 liter). What I did was a great success, no mechanic has ever given me any hope. It has stunned everyone. I also unseized another boat of mine (20 ft.) using the same method. Engine runs but the compression is at 60/70 on 2 cyl. so I know I need to hone and replace rings on it, to say the least. I took both as a challenge, bought them and had them running within a month. The idea was to keep both in different locations so I could enjoy some diversity while vacationing. What baffles me is that except for compression test (unexpectedly high) I have all indications of blown head gasket. I have removed risers and manifolds, cleaned them to perfection, installed new gaskets. If it was a riser gasket water concentration would be rather equally spread over the side rather then 1 cylinder Since this is a boat engine I cannot pressurize cooling system easily. I thought of pressurizing the suspected cylinder but couldn't find any inexpensive tool or method of doing it. |
Blown head gasket or what...?
I would change oil and filter, first thing. This will allow you to see if
water really is getting in the oil. Next, nothing you said but the clouded oil and too high level would really point to a blown head gasket or cracked block. I would save that thought on the back burner and start with new oil and go to the river and motor around a bit staying close to the landing and keep an eye on the temp. gage. Afterward , I would check the new oil for water (cloudy?) and pull the plugs and see if old #4 looks weird. If there is water entering that cylinder it should make that plug cleaner. Also spin it over like you did before, without plugs, and see if you get any water. A little river running under a load should make a suspected leak more noticable. I hope your charmed motor stays that way. -- Ron White Boat building web address is www.concentric.net/~knotreel |
Blown head gasket or what...?
To do that I would need to get the intake out, right?
What would be a procedure to pressure check cooling system, can you give some steps, ideas to do it? What are the other ways of pinpointing the problem? "Lawrence James" wrote in message hlink.net... Check for cracks on the sides of the lifter valley of the block. That is a common point for cracks when the engine is not winterized and freezes. You can pressure check the system by clamping something inside the hoses. "Proxy" wrote in message .rogers.com... 1. The oil is not clear but rather milky. The oil level is much higher then it should be - about 2 inches on a dipstick higher then "full". This is the first oil after reviving the engine (see below) so I'm not sure whether to attribute milkiness to water leftovers or blown gasket. the oil level though is something new. 2. checked the impeller and looks fine, not damaged , no burn marks or anything unusual 3. the water was coming out quite steadily also steam was present 4. there is rust in the intake below carb, there is also a rust streak from s. plug no.4 downwards indicating the water could have been leaking from this plug socket 5. I bought this boat with a seized engine, I soaked it, unseized, ran it several times (never on water), starts and runs OK. When I unseized it I cranked out lot of water from the cylinders (min. 1 liter). What I did was a great success, no mechanic has ever given me any hope. It has stunned everyone. I also unseized another boat of mine (20 ft.) using the same method. Engine runs but the compression is at 60/70 on 2 cyl. so I know I need to hone and replace rings on it, to say the least. I took both as a challenge, bought them and had them running within a month. The idea was to keep both in different locations so I could enjoy some diversity while vacationing. What baffles me is that except for compression test (unexpectedly high) I have all indications of blown head gasket. I have removed risers and manifolds, cleaned them to perfection, installed new gaskets. If it was a riser gasket water concentration would be rather equally spread over the side rather then 1 cylinder Since this is a boat engine I cannot pressurize cooling system easily. I thought of pressurizing the suspected cylinder but couldn't find any inexpensive tool or method of doing it. |
Blown head gasket or what...?
What do you guys think of some of the sealants sold on the market. Example
he http://www.rxauto.com/pages/1/index.htm Any better ideas? |
Blown head gasket or what...?
"Proxy" wrote in message .rogers.com... 1. The oil is not clear but rather milky. The oil level is much higher then it should be - about 2 inches on a dipstick higher then "full". This is the first oil after reviving the engine (see below) so I'm not sure whether to attribute milkiness to water leftovers or blown gasket. the oil level though is something new. The milky color is due to water in the oil. If the oil level is rising on its own that is a clear indication that you are still getting water into the oil. 4. there is rust in the intake below carb, there is also a rust streak from s. plug no.4 downwards indicating the water could have been leaking from this plug socket I would not expect water to leak out of a plug socket. If you have any appreciable amount of water in the cylinder it would hydrolock. 5. I bought this boat with a seized engine, I soaked it, unseized, ran it several times (never on water), starts and runs OK. Okay, that changes my previous recommendations! When I unseized it I cranked out lot of water from the cylinders (min. 1 liter). How long had the engine been sitting with water in it? What baffles me is that except for compression test (unexpectedly high) I thought that the compression was rather high also. Could this be a "high performance" engine, which could have a high compression ratio (and thus require 91 octane gas)??? If you tested the compression right after you got it to turn over for the first time then there is a possibility that you still had some water in the cylinders. This would certainly raise the compression numbers. If you haven't tested it since you actually had it running you might want to do it again. I have all indications of blown head gasket. A head gasket can fail in several ways. The gasket must seal the cylinder pressure. There are also water passages that are under moderate pressure (a few PSI on a boat engine, up to 14 PSI on a closed cooling system). There are also oil passages that are not under pressure. A common failure is to have the pressure from the cylinder rupture the gasket. The rupture can go to the outside, an oil passage, or the water jacket. Such a rupture should show up on a compression test. Other than that, a rupture to the outside might not be noticable. A rupture to the water jacket would cause overheating on a closed cooling system but might be unnoticable on a boat with raw water cooling unless water entered the cylinder when the engine cooled. A rupture to an oil passage would result in excessive amount of "blow by". It is also possible for the water jacket to seal to fail, either to the outside or to an oil passage. To the outside would result in a visible leak, while a ruptuer to the oil passage would cause your crankcase to fill with water. Since the cylinder is still sealed this failure will not show up on a compression test. Usually, this sort of failure is the result of a warped head, perhaps the result of overheating. If the head is warped, just replacing the gasket may not fix the problem. I would recommend removing the heads and examining them. This, of course, requires removal of both the intake and exhaust manifolds, which it sounds like you may have already done once. Generally, once you have the manifolds off getting the heads off isn't too difficult. This will also allow you to examine the cylinders to see if there is any rust issues inside. Rod |
Blown head gasket or what...?
OK, changed the oil today, pumped out 9 liters ! of sludge, some of it so
thick that I couldn't believe my eyes. As indicated I have not had the boat in the water yet (no time plus a big "?" with regard to the engine). Oil filter contained almost no oil but water. I ran the engine last year on the hose for about 20 min altogether. That was after putting new oil in the engine (first change after getting it to run). Considering short time that I had it running on the hose it seems like I have a major leak. Since compression is quite high (140-160) I wonder whether it is something else other then head gasket (cracked block?). Water seems to accumulate in crackcase although as I said looks like also in cyl. # 4. I ran the engine today for about 30 sec. (dry, no water). Seems to be working, This a regular 305 8cyl. 5L OMC engine, nothing special about it. I guess there is no way to avoid heads removal. I bought Block Seal (K&W product) after I read some really good comments about it (many swar by it). I planned to connect 2 exhaust water hoses (that are normally hooked to manifolds) together and connect them with water inlet hose (unhook from the outdrive - bell housing) thereby creating a loop. I planned to fill it with water mixed with Block Seal and run it for 5 min. That should help seal small cracks (wonder how small or big mine is). If no improvement I would remove heads. In theory my plan looks OK but God knows.... Considering what I've accomplished so far without taking the engine apart I'm still optimistic although prospects are quite tough. What do you think should I do? What is the most likely fault/damage here? "Rod McInnis" wrote in message ... "Proxy" wrote in message .rogers.com... 1. The oil is not clear but rather milky. The oil level is much higher then it should be - about 2 inches on a dipstick higher then "full". This is the first oil after reviving the engine (see below) so I'm not sure whether to attribute milkiness to water leftovers or blown gasket. the oil level though is something new. The milky color is due to water in the oil. If the oil level is rising on its own that is a clear indication that you are still getting water into the oil. 4. there is rust in the intake below carb, there is also a rust streak from s. plug no.4 downwards indicating the water could have been leaking from this plug socket I would not expect water to leak out of a plug socket. If you have any appreciable amount of water in the cylinder it would hydrolock. 5. I bought this boat with a seized engine, I soaked it, unseized, ran it several times (never on water), starts and runs OK. Okay, that changes my previous recommendations! When I unseized it I cranked out lot of water from the cylinders (min. 1 liter). How long had the engine been sitting with water in it? What baffles me is that except for compression test (unexpectedly high) I thought that the compression was rather high also. Could this be a "high performance" engine, which could have a high compression ratio (and thus require 91 octane gas)??? If you tested the compression right after you got it to turn over for the first time then there is a possibility that you still had some water in the cylinders. This would certainly raise the compression numbers. If you haven't tested it since you actually had it running you might want to do it again. I have all indications of blown head gasket. A head gasket can fail in several ways. The gasket must seal the cylinder pressure. There are also water passages that are under moderate pressure (a few PSI on a boat engine, up to 14 PSI on a closed cooling system). There are also oil passages that are not under pressure. A common failure is to have the pressure from the cylinder rupture the gasket. The rupture can go to the outside, an oil passage, or the water jacket. Such a rupture should show up on a compression test. Other than that, a rupture to the outside might not be noticable. A rupture to the water jacket would cause overheating on a closed cooling system but might be unnoticable on a boat with raw water cooling unless water entered the cylinder when the engine cooled. A rupture to an oil passage would result in excessive amount of "blow by". It is also possible for the water jacket to seal to fail, either to the outside or to an oil passage. To the outside would result in a visible leak, while a ruptuer to the oil passage would cause your crankcase to fill with water. Since the cylinder is still sealed this failure will not show up on a compression test. Usually, this sort of failure is the result of a warped head, perhaps the result of overheating. If the head is warped, just replacing the gasket may not fix the problem. I would recommend removing the heads and examining them. This, of course, requires removal of both the intake and exhaust manifolds, which it sounds like you may have already done once. Generally, once you have the manifolds off getting the heads off isn't too difficult. This will also allow you to examine the cylinders to see if there is any rust issues inside. Rod |
Blown head gasket or what...?
Just did that. See my comments above. I tend to agree with Rod McInnis that
it looks like a massive oil passage-cooling system leak accompanied by much smaller to the cylinder. That way you can have high compression and lots of water in your crankcase like in my case. I see that as a "hotspot" in the gasket that also could have potentially caused a crack/warp (I hope not). I think that water jacket pressure test would reveal if I have to do both heads or just one. It all boils down to good diagnostics and methodology. Good troubleshooting is my forté although I have little experience with engines. I'm quite technicaly inclined so dismantling the engine is not something I'm scared of. The issue is to do just what is required, nothing more nothing less. In my case: 1 or both heads? Would hate to find out that the one I took off was just perfect. From compression test looks like odd side looks good and the only anomaly is #4 on even side. Or am I missing something? "Ron White" wrote in message ... I would change oil and filter, first thing. This will allow you to see if water really is getting in the oil. Next, nothing you said but the clouded oil and too high level would really point to a blown head gasket or cracked block. I would save that thought on the back burner and start with new oil and go to the river and motor around a bit staying close to the landing and keep an eye on the temp. gage. Afterward , I would check the new oil for water (cloudy?) and pull the plugs and see if old #4 looks weird. If there is water entering that cylinder it should make that plug cleaner. Also spin it over like you did before, without plugs, and see if you get any water. A little river running under a load should make a suspected leak more noticable. I hope your charmed motor stays that way. -- Ron White Boat building web address is www.concentric.net/~knotreel |
Blown head gasket or what...?
OK, guys here is the scoop. I took the head off on the even side that was
suspected of water leak. Head gasket in perfect condition, same with intake manifold, both sides. Cylinders inside OK no issue, no rust, scuffs or anything suspect. There are rust residues on the top of the cylinder (inside the head) and valves are quite rusty. No. 4 has most rust although as I said cylinder walls are OK, no rust. Seemes like compression test did not lie and the undertaking so far has rendered zero results. It was simply unnecessary. There has to be another point of water entry. I'm not even thinking about takeing the other head off as compression was perfect on all cylinders. I've redone raisers last year (new gaskets, throughly cleaned, refinished contact surfaces) but maybe I'd have to do it again. Still looking for ideas.... Any input appreciated. "Mikkilla" wrote in message ... 1.) have you checked the oil. if you have a blown head gasket you will end up with water in the oil see if its milky in color on the dip stick. 2.) Your impeller might not be up to par to keep the engine cool. What was the engine temp? 3.) was the water coming out at a study flow from the exhaust or was it all steam and not water or very little? 4.) the water "spray" you got if a very good chance it came from the water that got in to a uncovered Carb. Careful there you might have something rusted up in the intake area. |
Blown head gasket or what...?
After thorough analysys I came to the following conclusions:
The leak may occur in these areas: -water pump seal (this is Cobra and I have no detailed info about it, I need to study it in depth, but it seems least likely) -head gasket leak (checked and eliminated) -cracked block (inspected it and haven't noticed anything unusual, still need to do it again in depth, for now I see it as unlikely cause) -leaking intake seal (even though I checked it and did not notice anything suspect it seems to be the most likely reason considering the amount of water) -raiser leak (strangely the engine never stalled which would indicate raiser/manifold issue, the other reason it is less likely is that there is so much water getting into the crankcase that I wonder how would it be possible for the cylinder with a healthy head gasket to pass water into the crankcase - if not through the valves (unlikely) then how? the only answer would be a cracked block). Don't know if this is correct but I'm down to either cracked block ot intake gasket. Considering, the engine ran fine and there are no indications of any cracks... it looks like the intake dripping straight into the valley and from there directly into the crankcase, looks quite logical. So what do you guys think? "Proxy" wrote in message e.rogers.com... OK, guys here is the scoop. I took the head off on the even side that was suspected of water leak. Head gasket in perfect condition, same with intake manifold, both sides. Cylinders inside OK no issue, no rust, scuffs or anything suspect. There are rust residues on the top of the cylinder (inside the head) and valves are quite rusty. No. 4 has most rust although as I said cylinder walls are OK, no rust. Seemes like compression test did not lie and the undertaking so far has rendered zero results. It was simply unnecessary. There has to be another point of water entry. I'm not even thinking about takeing the other head off as compression was perfect on all cylinders. I've redone raisers last year (new gaskets, throughly cleaned, refinished contact surfaces) but maybe I'd have to do it again. Still looking for ideas.... Any input appreciated. "Mikkilla" wrote in message ... 1.) have you checked the oil. if you have a blown head gasket you will end up with water in the oil see if its milky in color on the dip stick. 2.) Your impeller might not be up to par to keep the engine cool. What was the engine temp? 3.) was the water coming out at a study flow from the exhaust or was it all steam and not water or very little? 4.) the water "spray" you got if a very good chance it came from the water that got in to a uncovered Carb. Careful there you might have something rusted up in the intake area. |
Blown head gasket or what...?
After a long break I'm back with an update. I replaced the head gasket and
(surprise!) put it back together. After some tinkering I created a loop by unhooking intake and water outlet hoses, attached new ones that lead to the bucket with water. Filled the engine with water (mixed with block seal and ran the engine for about 15 min. First impression: after 5 min. I checked the oil and looked quite clear. I observed a water level in the bucket and it stayed the same. No bubbling. In short it seems that head gasket replacement together with intake seals did the trick. I pressure washed the cylinder head and that has revealed some slight rusting around water ports leading to the cylinder bore especially around cyl. no. 4, although not only. Looks like a head gasket was leaking between the block and the head gasket (underneath) although gasket itself was in perfect shape (not tight enough?). That will probably conclude the saga. I'll check it soon where it belongs: in the lake. Thanks everyone for help and words of encouragement. "Lawrence James" wrote in message hlink.net... Check for cracks on the sides of the lifter valley of the block. That is a common point for cracks when the engine is not winterized and freezes. You can pressure check the system by clamping something inside the hoses. "Proxy" wrote in message .rogers.com... 1. The oil is not clear but rather milky. The oil level is much higher then it should be - about 2 inches on a dipstick higher then "full". This is the first oil after reviving the engine (see below) so I'm not sure whether to attribute milkiness to water leftovers or blown gasket. the oil level though is something new. 2. checked the impeller and looks fine, not damaged , no burn marks or anything unusual 3. the water was coming out quite steadily also steam was present 4. there is rust in the intake below carb, there is also a rust streak from s. plug no.4 downwards indicating the water could have been leaking from this plug socket 5. I bought this boat with a seized engine, I soaked it, unseized, ran it several times (never on water), starts and runs OK. When I unseized it I cranked out lot of water from the cylinders (min. 1 liter). What I did was a great success, no mechanic has ever given me any hope. It has stunned everyone. I also unseized another boat of mine (20 ft.) using the same method. Engine runs but the compression is at 60/70 on 2 cyl. so I know I need to hone and replace rings on it, to say the least. I took both as a challenge, bought them and had them running within a month. The idea was to keep both in different locations so I could enjoy some diversity while vacationing. What baffles me is that except for compression test (unexpectedly high) I have all indications of blown head gasket. I have removed risers and manifolds, cleaned them to perfection, installed new gaskets. If it was a riser gasket water concentration would be rather equally spread over the side rather then 1 cylinder Since this is a boat engine I cannot pressurize cooling system easily. I thought of pressurizing the suspected cylinder but couldn't find any inexpensive tool or method of doing it. |
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