Bent Shaft sea kayak paddle
 

Is there a reason why bent shaft for sea kayaks don't seem popular at
kayak stores ? Looking for recommendation on bent shaft sea kayak paddles ?

On 7-May-2005, Drew Cutter wrote:

Is there a reason why bent shaft for sea kayaks don't seem popular at
kayak stores ?

They are not as popular as they were several years ago and they are pricier
than straight shaft. It might also be a function of how much the staff like
bent shafts.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 7-May-2005, Drew Cutter wrote:


Is there a reason why bent shaft for sea kayaks don't seem popular at
kayak stores ?


They are not as popular as they were several years ago and they are pricier
than straight shaft. It might also be a function of how much the staff like
bent shafts.

Mike

Also, unless you have a specific problem that a bent shaft paddle will
help to resolve (wrist pain, etc.), the limited hand positions they
offer are a disadvantage. If yo like to slide the paddle, you won't like
a bent shaft. Additionally, it seems that many people with wrist, elbow
or shoulder problems are turning to Greenland paddles for relief. You
can buy them cheaper (typically) or make them yourself for a few dollars.

Brain ,

Thanks for the info on Greenland style.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:

On 7-May-2005, Drew Cutter wrote:


Is there a reason why bent shaft for sea kayaks don't seem popular at
kayak stores ?



They are not as popular as they were several years ago and they are
pricier
than straight shaft. It might also be a function of how much the
staff like
bent shafts.

Mike


Also, unless you have a specific problem that a bent shaft paddle will
help to resolve (wrist pain, etc.), the limited hand positions they
offer are a disadvantage. If yo like to slide the paddle, you won't like
a bent shaft. Additionally, it seems that many people with wrist, elbow
or shoulder problems are turning to Greenland paddles for relief. You
can buy them cheaper (typically) or make them yourself for a few dollars.

Agreed.

I agree that wrist pain can be caused by poor technique. However much of
the time it's usually caused by using a paddle that has to much feather
angle thus over rotating the wrists and can also be caused by using a shaft
that is to big for one's hands causing over gripping. Some people are more
prone to wrist problems than other just by their body make up and especially
if their job already requires wrist stress. A bent shaft can be a great
reliever to these stresses as well as a small shaft bent shaft. I acquired
this information when I repped for a Werner and felt the full benefits of a
small shaft bent shaft after several years of having carpal tunnel.

Courtney


"Melissa" wrote in message
...
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Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi Brian,

On Sun, 08 May 2005 13:07:31 GMT, you wrote:

Also, unless you have a specific problem that a bent shaft paddle
will help to resolve (wrist pain, etc.), the limited hand positions
they offer are a disadvantage. If yo like to slide the paddle, you
won't like a bent shaft. Additionally, it seems that many people
with wrist, elbow or shoulder problems are turning to Greenland
paddles for relief.

I concur, though I would add the following...

Often enough, "wrist pain, etc." is caused by poor technique. In
cases like that, seeking a technical solution (bent shaft) might
represent a needless restriction of one's ultimate possibilities.
Also, choosing a Greenland Paddle certainly doesn't have to be seen
as a solution to wrist pain; especially the type caused by poor
technique. Poor technique with a GP can cause just as much pain as
with any other type of paddle.

For my first several years of paddling, I used, exclusively, a
fiberglass Werner San Juan with an 80 degree feather. I paddled, as
I still do, almost every day, year 'round. Most often for several
hours a day, and often in demanding conditions that necessitated
non-stop paddling for hours on end in wind, waves, and current. Never
once, in all those years, did I experience any wrist, hand, or arm
pain. Even so, once I discovered the joys of using a Greenland
Paddle, I made the switch, and I've been very happy with it. I'm
still comfortable using the old paddle with the 80 degree feather,
but I just prefer the GP.

Now, if someone really does suffer from certain types of chronic pain
*not* caused by poor technique, and can only find relief with either
a bent shaft or GP (or any other alternative), that's great. I would
just recommend that most people look first at their techniques, and
think about their preferred methods of manipulating a paddle in
general before deciding that simply switching from one type of paddle
to another will be the "cure" to the problems they're having.

- --
Melissa

PGP Public Keys: http://www.freewebs.com/kuviahunnihautik/

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I'm one of those people. 1 Plate & 4 screws in my right arm. My bent
shaft Werner is a godsend, especially when paddling multiple days.

On Mon, 9 May 2005 16:30:29 -0700, Melissa
wrote:

Now, if someone really does suffer from certain types of chronic pain
*not* caused by poor technique, and can only find relief with either
a bent shaft or GP (or any other alternative), that's great. I would
just recommend that most people look first at their techniques, and
think about their preferred methods of manipulating a paddle in
general before deciding that simply switching from one type of paddle
to another will be the "cure" to the problems they're having.

On 8 May 2005 01:45:42 GMT, Drew Cutter wrote:

Is there a reason why bent shaft for sea kayaks don't seem popular at
kayak stores ? Looking for recommendation on bent shaft sea kayak paddles ?


Greg Barton has a discussion on the Epic Kayak web page that does a
good job of putting bend shaft paddles in perspective. There are
places whene they offer some advantages, There are disadvantages that
most sea kayakers find out-weigh those advantanges.

k.pearson wrote:

Greg Barton has a discussion on the Epic Kayak web page that does a
good job of putting bend shaft paddles in perspective. There are
places whene they offer some advantages, There are disadvantages that
most sea kayakers find out-weigh those advantanges.

Could you give us the URL please? I couldn't find it using Google,
either under "bent" or "bend" shaft.

Don't whitewater kayakers find that bent shaft paddles give them
an advantage in rolling? Think so.

On 12 May 2005 10:45:40 -0700, Bill Tuthill wrote:

k.pearson wrote:

Greg Barton has a discussion on the Epic Kayak web page that does a
good job of putting bend shaft paddles in perspective. There are
places whene they offer some advantages, There are disadvantages that
most sea kayakers find out-weigh those advantanges.

Could you give us the URL please? I couldn't find it using Google,
either under "bent" or "bend" shaft.

Don't whitewater kayakers find that bent shaft paddles give them
an advantage in rolling? Think so.

Bill

This is the URL for the short article that Greg wrote in the Epic
Kayaks Oct 2004 newsletter.

http://www.epickayaks.com/newsletter...ctober2004.htm

I've always been one to follow the lead of the top competive athletes
when it comes to new equipment. If bent shaft was really beneficial
in sea kayaks, I think we'd be seeing them in racing use. I've tried
one, but Greg's comment about needing to space it exactly for each
paddler is right on. I needed about a 1/2 inch narrowerd spacing, and
it felt awkward.

Karl

On 12-May-2005, k.pearson wrote:

I've always been one to follow the lead of the top competive athletes
when it comes to new equipment.

Given that competitive athletes can be driven by things like superstition
and imitation rather than intelligence or science, following them is
something that has to be done with care.

If bent shaft was really beneficial
in sea kayaks, I think we'd be seeing them in racing use.

Racing and sea kayaking are two different sports. I don't know that
a feature that's good for one is necessarily good for the other.

Mike

On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:48:06 GMT, "Michael Daly"
wrote:


On 12-May-2005, k.pearson wrote:

I've always been one to follow the lead of the top competive athletes
when it comes to new equipment.

Given that competitive athletes can be driven by things like superstition
and imitation rather than intelligence or science, following them is
something that has to be done with care.

If bent shaft was really beneficial
in sea kayaks, I think we'd be seeing them in racing use.

Racing and sea kayaking are two different sports. I don't know that
a feature that's good for one is necessarily good for the other.

Mike

Both true. However, what I look for is those things that cause the
least harm. Top athletes spent a lot more time doing a lot harder
paddling than I do. They are also willing to try anything to give
them an edge. So - I look at what's being used by most of the
winners and how they are using it. Good technique is one of the best
things you can learn from racers. Dead quiet catches, loose grip, use
of the body more than the arms, posture, an all that.

After trying a bent shaft I found that it has limits under some
conditions that make it less desirable than a straight shaft overall.

Karl

k.pearson wrote:

This is the URL for the short article that Greg wrote in the Epic
Kayaks Oct 2004 newsletter.

http://www.epickayaks.com/newsletter...ctober2004.htm

Thanks Karl! These are cogent comments, so I'll reproduce them here
so they will be findable inside Google Groups and won't go offline.
---

Straight Shaft vs. Bent Shaft Paddles
by Greg Barton

I always look to racers to evaluate new innovations. For them, a fraction
of a percentage can make a big difference in their results, so they quickly
find what works and what doesn't.

Bent shaft, or crank shaft, paddles were first used by Richard Fox of
Great Britain in winning the 1989 K-1 Slalom World Championships. The
following year, a number of sprint kayak racers tried crank shaft wing
paddles. Most notable was Martin Hunter, the 1989 K-1 500 meter World
Champion from Australia. He finished 3rd in the K-1 500 event at the
1990 World Championships using a bent shaft paddle. He then switched
back to a straight shaft paddle the following year. No world class
sprint paddlers have used crank shafts since 1991.

Bent shafts are more popular with whitewater paddlers. In 1996, about
half of the World's top Slalom racers used bent shaft paddles, while
the other half continued to use straight shafts. That has since changed
to about 33% using bent shafts and 67% straight. Bent shafts are very
popular with whitewater rodeo competitors - probably making up 75% or
more among the top paddlers.

Bent shafts flopped in sprint racing (as well as marathon and open water
racing) for the following reasons:

1. There is no gain in forward speed using bent shafts. While it may put
the wrist in a slightly easier gripping position at the start of the stroke,
experienced paddlers can accomplish the same reach with relaxed grip on a
straight shaft. Top racers rarely have wrist problems with straight shafts.

2. The shape of a bent shaft makes it inherently weaker. Therefore a
heavier shaft is needed to achieve the same strength.

3. If you paddle with a feathered paddle (as all top sprint racers do),
a bent shaft makes the stroke asymmetrical. While the pushing (top hand)
position of the control hand is in a favorable position, the pushing
position of the off-control hand must turn in the opposite direction -
resulting in a more awkward push on the off control side.

4. Bent shafts do not allow the paddler to adjust the spacing between
the hands - they must hold the paddle only in one place.

Bent shafts have continued to remain popular with whitewater enthusiasts
for the following reasons:

1. They allow more control over the inclination of the paddle blade -
making turning strokes easier.

2. They give more indication of the blade orientation - making it easier to
position the paddle properly in heavy whitewater, when upside down, etc.

It still remains to be seen if bent shaft paddles are beneficial to touring
or sea kayakers. In this light, Epic Kayaks currently does not offer a bent
shaft version and has no plans to introduce one. We continue to monitor
our customer feedback and we will introduce innovations that work for us
as top paddlers.

In closing, I did use a bent shaft paddle in 1990 and it didn't work so
I never used it again. If something works for Oscar and myself, you,
the everyday paddler, will have it as soon as it is physically possible.

k.pearson wrote in
:

On 12 May 2005 10:45:40 -0700, Bill Tuthill wrote:

k.pearson wrote:

Greg Barton has a discussion on the Epic Kayak web page that does a
good job of putting bend shaft paddles in perspective. There are
places whene they offer some advantages, There are disadvantages that
most sea kayakers find out-weigh those advantanges.

Could you give us the URL please? I couldn't find it using Google,
either under "bent" or "bend" shaft.

Don't whitewater kayakers find that bent shaft paddles give them an
advantage in rolling? Think so.

Bill

This is the URL for the short article that Greg wrote in the Epic
Kayaks Oct 2004 newsletter.

http://www.epickayaks.com/newsletter...ctober2004.htm

I've always been one to follow the lead of the top competive athletes
when it comes to new equipment. If bent shaft was really beneficial
in sea kayaks, I think we'd be seeing them in racing use. I've tried
one, but Greg's comment about needing to space it exactly for each
paddler is right on. I needed about a 1/2 inch narrowerd spacing, and
it felt awkward.

I've had similary experiences with bent shaft paddles. I went on a trip a
few years ago off the coast of Newfoundland and the guide let me use his
Lendal bent shaft paddle. It felt like my hands were forced an inch or so
further apart than I'm used to. After less than an hour I switch paddles
with him to a plastic blade Aquabound. A friend of mine owns a paddle shop
and carries the Werner carbon fiber bent shaft paddles. I've tried them in
a variety of lengths and blade shapes and still prefer my own fiberglass
Lightning standard.

Drew Cutter wrote:

Is there a reason why bent shaft for sea kayaks don't seem popular at
kayak stores ? Looking for recommendation on bent shaft sea kayak paddles ?

Paddling here in UK waters - North Wales and the West coast of Scotland
mainly - all my paddling buddies use cranked shafts. I think we find
that for very long days on the water, 40K+, the castor effect combined
with a relaxed grip makes for a relatively stress free paddiling stroke
when going for 8 hours or more in a day. Just my opinion thought!

Here is an article on Crank shafts . positive vs modified cranks ? Keith
do you have any experience with either the positive or modified crank
paddle ? Mfg. of paddles ?


PART ONE

These days there is plenty of choice when it comes to choosing a kayak paddle.

Paddles are very personal pieces of equipment. There is no one paddle that is best for every occasion or for every person. Everything is a compromise but in the following articles I hope to cover the points that will help you choose the right paddle for you.

Taking care

So why is it important to take care in selecting the right paddle? Surely, if it’s got a shaft and a couple of blades it will do the job. I wouldn’t deny for one minute that this is true, but for your skills to develop, certain features are going to be beneficial. The right paddle will help you maintain good technique and stable smooth strokes that will in turn reduce the risk of injury.

When looking to buy its worth considering the following points: Length, “feather” (The amount in degrees to which the paddle blades are offset) Durability, and Strength. All these points will be dictated by your intended use.

Getting an idea

I find standing in my local shop re-enacting the latest extreme video with a new set of paddles in my hand a good laugh but it’s probably not that scientific.

Perhaps a better plan is to try out as many of your friend’s paddles as you can, when you’re actually out on the water.

Alternatively there are sets of split paddles available on the market that can be set to any “feather” and allow an increase in length of up to ten centimetres. A set of these can be useful for coaching purposes as you can allow your clients to sample a broad spectrum of paddles.

A recent edition to the market is the ‘Padlock’ system from Lendal. This design allows shafts and blades to be interchanged to suit your needs on the day and can be split making transporting the paddle easier.

Cost

The initial outlay for a good paddle can of course be expensive. If you’re prepared to put in some thought though you should find that the expense is worthwhile.

Let’s look at what’s available.

Paddle length

The choice here is wider than you might think and unless you’re just starting out there is more to it than measuring it against your own height. Much more important are its intended use and the length of boat you’ll be in.

Generally speaking long boat means long paddle and short boat, short paddle.

Some facts worth knowing are that the longer the paddle the greater the circumference it will have to travel when forward paddling. Therefore the further it has to pass through the air, the lower your “stroke rate” (This is the speed at which your paddle completes its full movement when forward paddling) will be. This is important if you need to pick up speed quickly such as when you’re exiting a small eddy into a fast current.

Longer paddles give greater turning leverage but if too long it will be difficult to get into a vertical plain for “high angle” (When the paddle is used in a vertical or near vertical position) paddle strokes. The longer the paddle the more likely it will “flutter”.

A note on “flutter”

This is the side-to-side movement the blade can make during the “power phase” (The time at which there is force being applied to the paddle) of a stroke and causes energy to be wasted. To lessen the “flutter” you naturally grip the shaft harder and this can lead to wrist injuries as well as it being inefficient in energy terms.

To see “flutter” in action watch a friend paddle as fast as they can while you concentrate on watching their blades. You should see the blades moving slightly from side-to-side as they travel through the water. One obvious cure is to paddle only as fast as to not create “flutter” but of course this is not always possible. Thankfully the manufactures have a whole host of ways of lessening this problem. More on “flutter” later.

Ideally you will hold your paddle with each hand an equal distance from each blade and wide enough apart that your elbows are bent at about ninety degrees.

If this is the case a short shaft with your hands only two or three inches from each blade allows good control for quick precise strokes. The drawback to this is that your “stroke rate” will be high. This will mean you’ll be doing more strokes per kilometre. This will become an issue if you intend covering long distances.

If you look closely you’ll notice some paddlers with a short paddle deliberately “choking” (Sliding both hands down the shaft placing them closer to one of the blades) the shaft to get the leverage back when they really need it.

For Free - style boating it is useful to use a short paddle because it is easier to keep them clear of the water whilst vertical and thus you avoid “killing” the move.

So for long trips you want a long paddle and for the times you need to accelerate quickly you’ll want them to be short but only in relation to you and your boat.

Shaft diameter

How big are your hands?
Whatever feels comfortable is probably best. It is thought that too wide a grip can lead to tendon injuries. Many manufactures offer a selection of shafts so if it doesn’t feel comfortable try another size.

Oval shaped shafts

The better you get at performing an action without having to watch yourself doing it the more fluid and effective that action will become, like changing gears in the car.

Oval grips help you with this as they let you identify that you are holding the paddle correctly to perform a stroke without you having to look at your hands. Some paddles have an oval area for the control hand, some for both hands and in some instances the whole shaft is oval. You’ll have to decide which you prefer but don’t worry too much; a new paddle will often feel a little alien at first.

Tip

If you grip your paddle shaft too tightly you limit your muscles ability to receive feedback off the blades and in turn move them as precisely as is sometimes required. Some surf wax rubbed on your paddle shaft will make it easier to hold with a more relaxed grip.

Modified Crank Shafts

These are the ones you see with a curve in the position your hands are placed.

These shafts are designed to be more efficient then a standard straight shaft and reduce the chances of long-term injury. There are two main types, neutral modified crank or positive modified crank.

The bends in the shaft allows the third and forth fingers to aid the first and second during the “power phase” of the stroke so that more muscle groups are utilised.

A positive crank sets the blades slightly in front of the shaft, which produces slightly more reach on each stroke. This in turn though will mean that the blade must be lifted higher to clear the water on reverse strokes that may or may not be a problem depending on the type of paddling you do.

Neutral cranked shafts keep the blade in line with the shaft and will feel more like a straight shaft but have the benefits of reducing the chance of injury. As you take each stroke with a cranked shafted paddle the blades will set themselves as they catch the water.

These types of paddles are normally made up on an individual basis though some shops will have examples for you to look at, and any good canoe shop will have staff able to direct you through an order.

Materials

Wood although rarely seen these days is great for cold days on the river as it conducts very little heat away from your hands. The shaft can be sanded down to the required diameter but some maintenance is needed to keep them in good order. The greatest problem is that they are heavy compared to some of the other materials now available.

Perhaps the most commonly seen paddles are made up of an aluminium shaft with plastic blades. These are perhaps the least aesthetically pleasing but are usually the least expensive option. That’s not to say they should be avoided. They are lighter than wood and parts can usually be replaced if damaged.

The greatest weight to strength ratios can be found in composite paddles and they are generally considered the most aesthetically pleasing. Fibreglass although in it’s pure form isn’t massively strong, is durable and quite flexible. Laminating the glass with carbon helps to provide more strength.





Keith wrote:
Drew Cutter wrote:


Is there a reason why bent shaft for sea kayaks don't seem popular at
kayak stores ? Looking for recommendation on bent shaft sea kayak paddles ?


Paddling here in UK waters - North Wales and the West coast of Scotland
mainly - all my paddling buddies use cranked shafts. I think we find
that for very long days on the water, 40K+, the castor effect combined
with a relaxed grip makes for a relatively stress free paddiling stroke
when going for 8 hours or more in a day. Just my opinion thought!

Drew Cutter wrote:

Here is an article on Crank shafts . positive vs modified cranks ? Keith
do you have any experience with either the positive or modified crank
paddle ? Mfg. of paddles ?

Mostly we seem to use Lendal Modified cranks, I use Carbon Nordcapp
blades, others use the Kinetik touring or the Archipelago.

I checked out lendal. The four piece paddle look like a possible
solution. Too bad i would have to get by mail order. The stores that
carry lendal are and few between.

Keith wrote:
Drew Cutter wrote:


Here is an article on Crank shafts . positive vs modified cranks ? Keith
do you have any experience with either the positive or modified crank
paddle ? Mfg. of paddles ?


Mostly we seem to use Lendal Modified cranks, I use Carbon Nordcapp
blades, others use the Kinetik touring or the Archipelago.

On 13-May-2005, Bill Tuthill wrote:

3. If you paddle with a feathered paddle (as all top sprint racers do),
a bent shaft makes the stroke asymmetrical. While the pushing (top hand)
position of the control hand is in a favorable position, the pushing
position of the off-control hand must turn in the opposite direction -
resulting in a more awkward push on the off control side.

This is a 'problem' with high feather angles, but less so with low feather
angles. The degree of feather will change the degree the off-hand is off
the centerline of the paddle. Regardless of feather angle, it's not a
problem when paddling with little force.

4. Bent shafts do not allow the paddler to adjust the spacing between
the hands - they must hold the paddle only in one place.

This is partly true - the hand grip part of the shaft will allow you to
move your hands in or out a couple of inches in total. In general, you
can get used to sliding your hands all over a bent shaft - it's not as
onerous as some would make it seem. It's easier to move your hands across
a bend than to slide it past a drip ring.

Mike

On 14-May-2005, Drew Cutter wrote:

Here is an article on Crank shafts . positive vs modified cranks ? Keith
do you have any experience with either the positive or modified crank
paddle ? Mfg. of paddles ?

You can get cranks that cause the blade to lead, follow or be inline with
the shaft. Those that lead have stability problems - they tend to want
to turn around under power. Those that follow are inclined to "caster"
into alignment on a forward stroke, but can twist in other strokes such
as running draws. Neutral cranks are nice in that they have none of
these problems.

Lendal, Current Designs and others make bent shafts that have the blade
following the shaft. Werner is the only big name maker that I know of
that makes neutral shafts. Lendal makes shafts that lead as well.

As far as spacing between the hands goes - Lendal, IIRC, makes a couple
of sizes of shafts so that you can choose the spacing you want. Any
paddle shaft that is longer than needed can be cut down to reduce the
spacing.

Mike