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Honda making Oil (again)
HELP ! I posted
here about a year ago about a Honda 50 HP 4 stroke outboard making oil. Well, after a new fuel pump was installed, carbs checked etc, things seemed fine for about 20 hours of run time, then so much gas started getting into the oil it started bubbling out the dipstick tube again. Dealer says it's time for a another New Pump. Now pump #3 is in for about 5 hours and it doing the same thing ! What's going on here ? The engine otherwise runs perfect-as smooth as glass- the choke is not sticking or coming on by itself--has new thermostat-none of the carbs are running rich and it is stored wiith the engine verticle,run dry on gas and the fuel hose off. There has to be know problem and fix for this engine. Changing the Oil & Filter every 5 hours is not the cure ! PS-The dealer is stumped. ....jk... |
Me thinks that you have a blown head gasket or a cracked cylinder, do,
or ask for a compression test. JK wrote: HELP ! I posted here about a year ago about a Honda 50 HP 4 stroke outboard making oil. Well, after a new fuel pump was installed, carbs checked etc, things seemed fine for about 20 hours of run time, then so much gas started getting into the oil it started bubbling out the dipstick tube again. Dealer says it's time for a another New Pump. Now pump #3 is in for about 5 hours and it doing the same thing ! What's going on here ? The engine otherwise runs perfect-as smooth as glass- the choke is not sticking or coming on by itself--has new thermostat-none of the carbs are running rich and it is stored wiith the engine verticle,run dry on gas and the fuel hose off. There has to be know problem and fix for this engine. Changing the Oil & Filter every 5 hours is not the cure ! PS-The dealer is stumped. ...jk... |
Nope, compression is fine. 165 lb. in all three cylinders.
All plugs are burning a nice tan color. This is GAS getting in the Oil, not water. Thanks for the reply though.....jk..... |
Under warranty yet? If yes, if no... ask your dealer to talk to the Honda
area rep. Maybe you need to find a smarter dealer to work on your engine. But until then I would gladly sell your extra oil back to the oil companies(lol)! "JK" wrote in message ... HELP ! I posted here about a year ago about a Honda 50 HP 4 stroke outboard making oil. Well, after a new fuel pump was installed, carbs checked etc, things seemed fine for about 20 hours of run time, then so much gas started getting into the oil it started bubbling out the dipstick tube again. Dealer says it's time for a another New Pump. Now pump #3 is in for about 5 hours and it doing the same thing ! What's going on here ? The engine otherwise runs perfect-as smooth as glass- the choke is not sticking or coming on by itself--has new thermostat-none of the carbs are running rich and it is stored wiith the engine verticle,run dry on gas and the fuel hose off. There has to be know problem and fix for this engine. Changing the Oil & Filter every 5 hours is not the cure ! PS-The dealer is stumped. ...jk... |
One would think the dealer would have done the compression test as soon as
the gas was finding it's way into the oil. I would recommend you find a new mechanic, one who is familiar with Honda's and can call Honda if he has a problem he is not able to solve. "Dry" wrote in message ... Me thinks that you have a blown head gasket or a cracked cylinder, do, or ask for a compression test. JK wrote: HELP ! I posted here about a year ago about a Honda 50 HP 4 stroke outboard making oil. Well, after a new fuel pump was installed, carbs checked etc, things seemed fine for about 20 hours of run time, then so much gas started getting into the oil it started bubbling out the dipstick tube again. Dealer says it's time for a another New Pump. Now pump #3 is in for about 5 hours and it doing the same thing ! What's going on here ? The engine otherwise runs perfect-as smooth as glass- the choke is not sticking or coming on by itself--has new thermostat-none of the carbs are running rich and it is stored wiith the engine verticle,run dry on gas and the fuel hose off. There has to be know problem and fix for this engine. Changing the Oil & Filter every 5 hours is not the cure ! PS-The dealer is stumped. ...jk... |
If it's gasoline finding it's way into the crankcase of a 4 stroke in large
quantities it almost has to be the fuel pump. I believe the USCG requires dual diaphram pumps with a weep hole between diaphrams. Thus when the outer diaphram fails you begin to get small amounts of fuel in the out of the pump which is VERY obvious. I agree that you should consider another shop. Since I'm unfamiliar with Hondas I don't know enough to try to diagnose the issue. On some engines it's possible to install a pump with the lever in the wrong position which can cause pump damage very quickly (immediately?). I suppose it's JUST possible there could be a carb float chamber issue allowing too much fuel to get into the engine if it is tilted just so. Pretty unlikely but a DECENT technician could certain diagnose your issue with the shop manual and engine in front of him/her. Good luck. Butch "Woodchuck" wrote in message .. . Under warranty yet? If yes, if no... ask your dealer to talk to the Honda area rep. Maybe you need to find a smarter dealer to work on your engine. But until then I would gladly sell your extra oil back to the oil companies(lol)! "JK" wrote in message ... HELP ! I posted here about a year ago about a Honda 50 HP 4 stroke outboard making oil. Well, after a new fuel pump was installed, carbs checked etc, things seemed fine for about 20 hours of run time, then so much gas started getting into the oil it started bubbling out the dipstick tube again. Dealer says it's time for a another New Pump. Now pump #3 is in for about 5 hours and it doing the same thing ! What's going on here ? The engine otherwise runs perfect-as smooth as glass- the choke is not sticking or coming on by itself--has new thermostat-none of the carbs are running rich and it is stored wiith the engine verticle,run dry on gas and the fuel hose off. There has to be know problem and fix for this engine. Changing the Oil & Filter every 5 hours is not the cure ! PS-The dealer is stumped. ...jk... |
Engine is a 1997, no warranty left ;-(
...jk.. |
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Tom
There are more Honda's 'Broke" down here in SW FL than you would think Tom. See a lot of them with Big Damage due to broken timing belts, Lower unit failure and electrical issues due to weak wiring harnesses. This particular engine has had it share also from day ! This engine powers a trawler style boat, a ( Nimble Nomad ) which my buddy owns. He's looking into replacing it with an E-tec at this point.......jk...... |
JK wrote:
Nope, compression is fine. 165 lb. in all three cylinders. All plugs are burning a nice tan color. This is GAS getting in the Oil, not water. Thanks for the reply though.....jk..... A leaky diagphram on a crank case pressure / vacuum fuel pump? Terry K |
Here's the fix. Change the thermostat!!! If you run in salt water
change it every year. For us old dogs, a thermostat is to keep our Model A's from running hot. NOT ANY MORE!! Thermostats on these newer high tolerance engines are to keep the engine warm enough to reach its proper operating temperature. At that temp, the thermal expansion makes all of the parts expand to fit properly, so you don't get gas blowing by the rings and diluting the oil. After 'making oil', in a pair of Honda 45s, I found metal flakes in the oil. At first, I couldn't find anyone at Honda who either knew or would admit a problem. Finally I got hold of a rep who solved the problem by saying that there's plenty of 'meat' on the rod bearings, so just change the thermostat and run 'em. I got another 500 hours out of a pair of them. Try it.. the thermostat costs about $15 and takes only a few minutes to install. Changing the thermostats stopped the problem for me. As the thermostats became fouled late in the season, the problem began to return. I replaced the Hondas with 60 Merc Bigfoots. (I have twins on a Sea Cat) At about 100 hours, I noticed that I was 'making oil', on both sides, so I changed it and checked again after another 50 hours. Yup, the oil had grown an inch and a half above the full line on both engines. After my experience with the Hondas, the Merc thermostats were checked during winterization, but because they looked ok they were not replaced. Any suggestions?? Herb "JK" wrote in message ... HELP ! I posted here about a year ago about a Honda 50 HP 4 stroke outboard making oil. Well, after a new fuel pump was installed, carbs checked etc, things seemed fine for about 20 hours of run time, then so much gas started getting into the oil it started bubbling out the dipstick tube again. Dealer says it's time for a another New Pump. Now pump #3 is in for about 5 hours and it doing the same thing ! What's going on here ? The engine otherwise runs perfect-as smooth as glass- the choke is not sticking or coming on by itself--has new thermostat-none of the carbs are running rich and it is stored wiith the engine verticle,run dry on gas and the fuel hose off. There has to be know problem and fix for this engine. Changing the Oil & Filter every 5 hours is not the cure ! PS-The dealer is stumped. ...jk... |
The Honda 50 I spoke of had the thermostat replaced twice to see if it
would help and it's still making oil. It will gain almost a quart in 8 hours of run time !....JK |
JK, you may want to read this 4-stroke outboard "making oil" FAQ below:
-- I get a few customers each year with high oil levels in their 4-stroke outboards and it's really tough to explain why sometimes. So I prepared this to present to customers with the problem and I thought it would make a good FAQ. Q. Why does my 4-stroke outboard oil level keep rising? I never add any. Shouldn't it be going down? A. This is referred to as "Making oil". Here it is in a nutshell. Water vapor enters the crankcase of all motors from the atmosphere, and as a by-product of combustion. In other motors, the oil gets rather hot and any water vapor that may condense will steam-off and exit the crankcase breather. 4-stroke outboard motor oil doesn't get nearly as hot, so the water just keeps on collecting. Q. Is it always water? A. No. Tiny amounts of raw fuel also leak into the crankcase on the compression stroke, potentially diluting the oil and raising the level on a cool-running motor. Or there could be a fuel system leak. Typically the odor of the latter situation is fairly obvious, but not necessarily. Lack of a gassy smell shouldn't preclude checking the possibility of fuel system leaks. Over choking and frequent flooding will also cause fuel to get into the oil. Q. Where does the water come from? A. Three sources. Asmosphere, combustion and fuel. There's always moisture in the air, especially near bodies of water. Some condenses out naturally and collects in the crankcase of a sitting motor. Some comes in right along with the air as it runs. The body of water you're operating on produces a lot of atmospheric water vapor, especially a few feet above the water line ... where the powerhead is. H20 is one of the compounds that forms when gasoline is burned, along with CO, CO2, NOX, etc. Some leaks into the crankcase right along with the other contaminants and mixes into the oil. Alcohol combustion makes mostly CO2 and H2O, so alcohol-blended fuels tend to produce more water vapor than straight gasoline. Q. Wouldn't my oil turn milky if water was in there? A. Eventually it will. But oil has some capacity to retain water and it eventually reaches a threshold where it starts to cloud. Q. Why doesn't the oil get hot enough to steam it off? A. It can. If the motor is running hard enough to plane the boat, water that otherwise cools the oil isn't splashing on the sump that holds the oil. But boats that are run at non-planing speeds may not heat the oil up very much at all. The water the boat is running in cools the oil which is in the sump beneath the powerhead. That water can keep the oil pretty cool just by splashing against the outside of the aluminum sump. Motors that are mostly operated at sub-planing speeds seem to be especially susceptible to making oil. Many times the complaint is that a kicker used for trolling has the problem, but the main motor doesn't. That's because the main motor is used to get to the fishing spot fast to troll slow with the kicker. One is hot, the other is not. Q. Why is it a problem with my motor and not my neighbor's? A. Two things really aggrivate the problem. Cool running temperature of the oil, and the abundance of moisture available that inevitably collects. The environment the boat is kept in, water temperature, the fuel you use, and the way you operate the motor have huge effects on whether or not this is going to be a problem. Q. Wouldn't a hotter thermostat solve the problem? A. Doesn't help much, but it helps. Problem is that you're regulating coolant temperature and not oil temperature. The oil will get a little warmer as a result, but the powerhead will be running hotter and that's probably not good. Then consider that if the sump is getting splashed by water, that pretty much cancels it out. Q. How can I be sure of what is making the oil? A. You can have the oil analyzed. There are many labs that test automotive oil. Outboard readings may not be consistent with what would be expected from an automobile engine, so interpreting the data could be problematic. But it sure will show what is in the oil. A quick search yielded a lot of labs offering this service through the mail for a wide range of prices. Shop around, but it could be money well invested. One site with abundant information is http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ They also have a Forum if you have any questions. Q. So what can I do about it? A. Right now, the approach is to minimize the amount of contamination allowed to enter. That means keeping the motor as unexposed to atmospheric moisture as possible. Practical in some situations, impossible in others. The manufacturers are also stressing proper and agressive break-in procedures to mate surfaces better and keep leakage into the crankcase (blow-by) to a minimum. Avoid alcohol-blended fuels if you can. Finally, allow the motor to get hot enough to steam-off what water will inevitably collect in there. That'll probably mean running it hard for awhile. (If your lake has a speed limit ... Ouch!) If all of that fails, have the motor checked for gasket leakage. It could be coming from the cooling system. More frequent oil & filter changes may be necessary. But try running the motor hard for several minutes every time you go out. That's the easiest, cheapest, and most enjoyable thing to try. Q. So you mean I HAVE to open it up and go fast once in awhile? A. Dang shame, ain't it? Thanks to Bill, Bo, DJ, Gary, Jim, LubeDude, Ray, Robby, Rockhopper, TheOilDoc, and of course JB for their encouragement and invaluable assistance in preparing this FAQ. |
Nicely written, and a good ending. ;-)
wrote in message oups.com... JK, you may want to read this 4-stroke outboard "making oil" FAQ below: -- I get a few customers each year with high oil levels in their 4-stroke outboards and it's really tough to explain why sometimes. So I prepared this to present to customers with the problem and I thought it would make a good FAQ. Q. Why does my 4-stroke outboard oil level keep rising? I never add any. Shouldn't it be going down? A. This is referred to as "Making oil". Here it is in a nutshell. Water vapor enters the crankcase of all motors from the atmosphere, and as a by-product of combustion. In other motors, the oil gets rather hot and any water vapor that may condense will steam-off and exit the crankcase breather. 4-stroke outboard motor oil doesn't get nearly as hot, so the water just keeps on collecting. Q. Is it always water? A. No. Tiny amounts of raw fuel also leak into the crankcase on the compression stroke, potentially diluting the oil and raising the level on a cool-running motor. Or there could be a fuel system leak. Typically the odor of the latter situation is fairly obvious, but not necessarily. Lack of a gassy smell shouldn't preclude checking the possibility of fuel system leaks. Over choking and frequent flooding will also cause fuel to get into the oil. Q. Where does the water come from? A. Three sources. Asmosphere, combustion and fuel. There's always moisture in the air, especially near bodies of water. Some condenses out naturally and collects in the crankcase of a sitting motor. Some comes in right along with the air as it runs. The body of water you're operating on produces a lot of atmospheric water vapor, especially a few feet above the water line ... where the powerhead is. H20 is one of the compounds that forms when gasoline is burned, along with CO, CO2, NOX, etc. Some leaks into the crankcase right along with the other contaminants and mixes into the oil. Alcohol combustion makes mostly CO2 and H2O, so alcohol-blended fuels tend to produce more water vapor than straight gasoline. Q. Wouldn't my oil turn milky if water was in there? A. Eventually it will. But oil has some capacity to retain water and it eventually reaches a threshold where it starts to cloud. Q. Why doesn't the oil get hot enough to steam it off? A. It can. If the motor is running hard enough to plane the boat, water that otherwise cools the oil isn't splashing on the sump that holds the oil. But boats that are run at non-planing speeds may not heat the oil up very much at all. The water the boat is running in cools the oil which is in the sump beneath the powerhead. That water can keep the oil pretty cool just by splashing against the outside of the aluminum sump. Motors that are mostly operated at sub-planing speeds seem to be especially susceptible to making oil. Many times the complaint is that a kicker used for trolling has the problem, but the main motor doesn't. That's because the main motor is used to get to the fishing spot fast to troll slow with the kicker. One is hot, the other is not. Q. Why is it a problem with my motor and not my neighbor's? A. Two things really aggrivate the problem. Cool running temperature of the oil, and the abundance of moisture available that inevitably collects. The environment the boat is kept in, water temperature, the fuel you use, and the way you operate the motor have huge effects on whether or not this is going to be a problem. Q. Wouldn't a hotter thermostat solve the problem? A. Doesn't help much, but it helps. Problem is that you're regulating coolant temperature and not oil temperature. The oil will get a little warmer as a result, but the powerhead will be running hotter and that's probably not good. Then consider that if the sump is getting splashed by water, that pretty much cancels it out. Q. How can I be sure of what is making the oil? A. You can have the oil analyzed. There are many labs that test automotive oil. Outboard readings may not be consistent with what would be expected from an automobile engine, so interpreting the data could be problematic. But it sure will show what is in the oil. A quick search yielded a lot of labs offering this service through the mail for a wide range of prices. Shop around, but it could be money well invested. One site with abundant information is http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ They also have a Forum if you have any questions. Q. So what can I do about it? A. Right now, the approach is to minimize the amount of contamination allowed to enter. That means keeping the motor as unexposed to atmospheric moisture as possible. Practical in some situations, impossible in others. The manufacturers are also stressing proper and agressive break-in procedures to mate surfaces better and keep leakage into the crankcase (blow-by) to a minimum. Avoid alcohol-blended fuels if you can. Finally, allow the motor to get hot enough to steam-off what water will inevitably collect in there. That'll probably mean running it hard for awhile. (If your lake has a speed limit ... Ouch!) If all of that fails, have the motor checked for gasket leakage. It could be coming from the cooling system. More frequent oil & filter changes may be necessary. But try running the motor hard for several minutes every time you go out. That's the easiest, cheapest, and most enjoyable thing to try. Q. So you mean I HAVE to open it up and go fast once in awhile? A. Dang shame, ain't it? Thanks to Bill, Bo, DJ, Gary, Jim, LubeDude, Ray, Robby, Rockhopper, TheOilDoc, and of course JB for their encouragement and invaluable assistance in preparing this FAQ. |
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