http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John
Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up
their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during
the campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on
abortion were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He
pointedly mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently
campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman
Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger
wrote, priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any
Catholic who voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would
be guilty of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present
himself for Holy Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a
pastoral letter was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the
ominous suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was
nothing less than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration
with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from
the 2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift,
Kerry would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three states
-- Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the votes of
the Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of terrorism and
Sept. 11, Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving
grace. The key to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Jim,,,,,
What ever happened to your story about Bush investing in Nazi's? Did you
finally realize how silly your cut and paste was?


"Jim," wrote in message
...
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John
Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up
their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the
campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion
were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He pointedly
mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and
voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman
Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger wrote,
priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any Catholic who
voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would be guilty of
formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy
Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter
was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous
suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less
than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from the
2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift, Kerry
would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three states --
Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the votes of the
Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of terrorism and Sept. 11,
Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving grace. The key
to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Yes, it's me wrote:

Jim,,,,,
What ever happened to your story about Bush investing in Nazi's? Did you
finally realize how silly your cut and paste was?

He didn't invest with, they paid him to invest For them -- and it was
grandpa bush Prescott. Had assets seized under the "trading with the
enemy act"


"Jim," wrote in message
...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John
Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up
their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the
campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion
were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He pointedly
mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and
voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman
Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger wrote,
priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any Catholic who
voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would be guilty of
formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy
Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter
was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous
suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less
than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from the
2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift, Kerry
would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three states --
Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the votes of the
Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of terrorism and Sept. 11,
Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving grace. The key
to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

It sure was nice of Prescott to help someone who rallied against the Nazi's
wasn't it. Prescott was a true patriot.


"Jim," wrote in message
...
Yes, it's me wrote:

Jim,,,,,
What ever happened to your story about Bush investing in Nazi's? Did you
finally realize how silly your cut and paste was?

He didn't invest with, they paid him to invest For them -- and it was
grandpa bush Prescott. Had assets seized under the "trading with the
enemy act"


"Jim," wrote in message
...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John
Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up
their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the
campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion
were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He pointedly
mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and
voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman
Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger
wrote, priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any Catholic
who voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would be guilty
of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy
Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter
was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous
suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less
than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from
the 2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift,
Kerry would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three
states -- Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the
votes of the Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of terrorism
and Sept. 11, Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving
grace. The key to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Yes, it's me wrote:

It sure was nice of Prescott to help someone who rallied against the Nazi's
wasn't it. Prescott was a true patriot.

That's why some of his assets were seized


"Jim," wrote in message
...

Yes, it's me wrote:


Jim,,,,,
What ever happened to your story about Bush investing in Nazi's? Did you
finally realize how silly your cut and paste was?

He didn't invest with, they paid him to invest For them -- and it was
grandpa bush Prescott. Had assets seized under the "trading with the
enemy act"


"Jim," wrote in message
. ..


http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John
Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up
their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the
campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion
were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He pointedly
mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and
voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman
Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger
wrote, priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any Catholic
who voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would be guilty
of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy
Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter
was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous
suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less
than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from
the 2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift,
Kerry would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three
states -- Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the
votes of the Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of terrorism
and Sept. 11, Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving
grace. The key to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Jim,,,,
The Nazi's stated he was trying to overthrow the Nazi government, and
imprisoned him for his antigovernment activities. According to The Simon
Wiesthanthal Center " Soviet pact of 23 August 1939 and the aggressive war
policy of the regime had been the last straw for Thyssen, who wrote to
Hitler as 'a free and upright German', claiming to be the 'voice of the
tormented German nation' calling for a restoration of 'freedom, right and
humanity' in the German Reich. Thyssen's appeal was ignored, he was stripped
in absentia of his German citizenship and his property was confiscated. In
1941, his memoirs, I Paid Hitler, first appeared in English, an anguished
settling of accounts with the Nazi regime which 'has ruined Germany' but
singularly unreliable in its recounting of his financial relationship with
the National Socialists. Thyssen was arrested and turned over to the Nazis
by the Vichy police for return to Germany, where he was imprisoned for the
rest of the war. He died in Buenos Aires on 8 February 1951."

I for one am glad a major German industrialist was doing everything he
could to hurt the Nazi's war machine. I am also glad Prescott had enough
class and integrity to assist someone who was doing everything he could to
overthrow Hitler.


Don't you feel like an idiot for reprinting that biased propaganda, you
LiberalTrash Borgnuts are so predictable.


"Jim," wrote in message
...
Yes, it's me wrote:

It sure was nice of Prescott to help someone who rallied against the
Nazi's wasn't it. Prescott was a true patriot.

That's why some of his assets were seized


"Jim," wrote in message
...

Yes, it's me wrote:


Jim,,,,,
What ever happened to your story about Bush investing in Nazi's? Did
you finally realize how silly your cut and paste was?

He didn't invest with, they paid him to invest For them -- and it was
grandpa bush Prescott. Had assets seized under the "trading with the
enemy act"


"Jim," wrote in message
.. .


http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope
John Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step
up their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states
during the campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on
abortion were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He
pointedly mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently
campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a
Roman Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion,
Ratzinger wrote, priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it."
Any Catholic who voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued,
"would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to
present himself for Holy Communion." During the closing weeks of the
campaign, a pastoral letter was read from pulpits in Catholic churches
repeating the ominous suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the
Democrat was nothing less than consorting with the forces of Satan,
collaboration with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from
the 2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift,
Kerry would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three
states -- Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the
votes of the Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of
terrorism and Sept. 11, Bush required the benediction of the Holy See
as his saving grace. The key to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal
Ratzinger.

Salon.com is such a reliable source for news? Right. They are a bit
closer to feeding on the pond scum than NewsMax..com. It may be a tight
race though.

The bottom line is that some folks will believe anything they read as long
as it verifies their personal opinion. How revealing! And how evident in
this thread.

Regardless, why is the selection of a Pope born and raised during the Nazi
regime (forced to join the juvenile Nazi 14 year old youth program) such a
problem with those non-Catholics or those otherwise removed from the
decision?

Grasping at straws.

Regardless, when was the last time (within the last 100 or so years) that
the Pope has had a direct influence on world wide or regional politics?

Some folks here are trying to make a religious issue into a political one.

Arf!

Time for pause.

So lets drop our religious biases when discussing this issue.

Fair enough?




"Yes, it's me" wrote in message
...
Jim,,,,,
What ever happened to your story about Bush investing in Nazi's? Did you
finally realize how silly your cut and paste was?


"Jim," wrote in message
...
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John
Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up
their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the
campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion
were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He pointedly
mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and
voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman
Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger
wrote, priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any Catholic
who voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would be guilty
of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy
Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter
was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous
suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less
than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from
the 2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift,
Kerry would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three
states -- Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the
votes of the Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of terrorism
and Sept. 11, Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving
grace. The key to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Well, As one observation, I just happened to hear that particular sermon
mentioned. Had I been on an aisle seat, I would have been out of
there. I was not aware at the time that the topic for the "sermon" (or
paid political announcement) came from Rome. As it is I am somewhat
ashamed that I didn't stand and challenge the priest for mixing religion
and politics. Needless to say; I haven't been back.

When a priest preaches that support for one political candidate is
sinful, it sure as hell *IS* an attempt to influence politics. And
Some Catholics are conditioned so that the clergy can do no wrong, I
find the Salon article entirely believable, based on my personal experience.


JimH wrote:

Salon.com is such a reliable source for news? Right. They are a bit
closer to feeding on the pond scum than NewsMax..com. It may be a tight
race though.

The bottom line is that some folks will believe anything they read as long
as it verifies their personal opinion. How revealing! And how evident in
this thread.

Regardless, why is the selection of a Pope born and raised during the Nazi
regime (forced to join the juvenile Nazi 14 year old youth program) such a
problem with those non-Catholics or those otherwise removed from the
decision?

Grasping at straws.

Regardless, when was the last time (within the last 100 or so years) that
the Pope has had a direct influence on world wide or regional politics?

Some folks here are trying to make a religious issue into a political one.

Arf!

Time for pause.

So lets drop our religious biases when discussing this issue.

Fair enough?




"Yes, it's me" wrote in message
...

Jim,,,,,
What ever happened to your story about Bush investing in Nazi's? Did you
finally realize how silly your cut and paste was?


"Jim," wrote in message
.. .

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument.../tk/print.html

extract

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John
Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After
enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied
Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American
bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic
Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up
their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the
campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S.
bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion
were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He pointedly
mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and
voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" --
an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman
Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger
wrote, priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any Catholic
who voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would be guilty
of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy
Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter
was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous
suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less
than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with "evil."

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from
the 2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift,
Kerry would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three
states -- Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico -- moved into Bush's column on the
votes of the Catholic "faithful." Even with his atmospherics of terrorism
and Sept. 11, Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving
grace. The key to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

"Jim," wrote in message
...
Well, As one observation, I just happened to hear that particular sermon
mentioned. Had I been on an aisle seat, I would have been out of there.
I was not aware at the time that the topic for the "sermon" (or paid
political announcement) came from Rome. As it is I am somewhat ashamed
that I didn't stand and challenge the priest for mixing religion and
politics. Needless to say; I haven't been back.

When a priest preaches that support for one political candidate is sinful,
it sure as hell *IS* an attempt to influence politics. And Some
Catholics are conditioned so that the clergy can do no wrong, I find the
Salon article entirely believable, based on my personal experience.

The Catholic Church was the Catholic Church long before you began your
pitiful life. If you don't agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church
you can go and join another church that is to your liking.

If you believe that religions shouldn't be involved in politics then you
should be outraged anytime a candidate for political office or some one that
is holding a political office appears at a religious institution and steps
up to the pulpit and speaks. Until then keep your moral outrage to yourself
you hypocrite.

The problem with moral relativism is that its beliefs go with the wind. The
beliefs never stay the same for any lengthy period of time so you can never
be sure what you are believing in. You can get caught on the wrong side of
the issue because you didn't get the word that the beliefs have just
changed.

Bert Robbins wrote:
"Jim," wrote in message
...

Well, As one observation, I just happened to hear that particular sermon
mentioned. Had I been on an aisle seat, I would have been out of there.
I was not aware at the time that the topic for the "sermon" (or paid
political announcement) came from Rome. As it is I am somewhat ashamed
that I didn't stand and challenge the priest for mixing religion and
politics. Needless to say; I haven't been back.

When a priest preaches that support for one political candidate is sinful,
it sure as hell *IS* an attempt to influence politics. And Some
Catholics are conditioned so that the clergy can do no wrong, I find the
Salon article entirely believable, based on my personal experience.


The Catholic Church was the Catholic Church long before you began your
pitiful life. If you don't agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church
you can go and join another church that is to your liking.

As I said, I haven't been back

If you believe that religions shouldn't be involved in politics then you
should be outraged anytime a candidate for political office or some one that
is holding a political office appears at a religious institution and steps
up to the pulpit and speaks. Until then keep your moral outrage to yourself
you hypocrite.

So you wish to rewrite the constitution? I *AM* against *ANY* State
approved religion or vis versa.

The problem with moral relativism is that its beliefs go with the wind. The
beliefs never stay the same for any lengthy period of time so you can never
be sure what you are believing in. You can get caught on the wrong side of
the issue because you didn't get the word that the beliefs have just
changed.

I hold my own beliefs. I can think for myself. Can you?

Can you even express yourself without resorting to personal insults?