Small sail boat advice
 

Hi. My old Sunfish died last winter -- the transom has been patched
one time too many, finally fell off completely, so I am looking for a
new boat to replace it. I can get another Sunfish easily enough, but
I'd like to consider other options. The ones I have found are the
Vanguard Pico Plus, and the Esacpe Rumba / Escape 12. Anybody out
there have any experience with these, any other small sailboat (besides
the Sunfish) that I should look at?

I am a 230 lb, middle aged, not-so-athletic-anymore guy, with wife and
7 year old kid. It'd be nice to get us all on the boat, maybe,
sometimes. Usually it's just me and the kid. We live on Cape Cod
(windy), usually sail in ponds or harbors.

Any advice at all would be appreciated. Thanks.

On 26 Mar 2005 19:49:45 -0800, "Ummmmm" wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

Any advice at all would be appreciated. Thanks.

This is exactly what you are looking for:

http://tinyurl.com/4dao4

Later,

Tom

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
This is exactly what you are looking for:

http://tinyurl.com/4dao4

Later,


Ah...you wacky 'mericans!

Here's what a sensible Canuck would recommend...
a CL 16....or a Wayfarer dinghy. very similar boats.
Lots of 2nd hand boats available in central Canada and a number of American
owners also frequent the CL newsgroup.
see... http://www.vaxxine.com/clsailboats/ and
http://www.sailboatsales.com/
If you decide to overnight....the CL family used to manufacture my boat the
Sandpiper 565 (lots used ones in central Canada - cheap in US $.)

On 26 Mar 2005 19:49:45 -0800, "Ummmmm" wrote:

Hi. My old Sunfish died last winter --

I had one of these when I was 4. Nice little boats.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:10:21 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
This is exactly what you are looking for:

http://tinyurl.com/4dao4

Later,


Ah...you wacky 'mericans!

Don't word of the day - wacky. :)

Here's what a sensible Canuck would recommend...
a CL 16....or a Wayfarer dinghy. very similar boats.
Lots of 2nd hand boats available in central Canada and a number of American
owners also frequent the CL newsgroup.
see... http://www.vaxxine.com/clsailboats/ and
http://www.sailboatsales.com/
If you decide to overnight....the CL family used to manufacture my boat the
Sandpiper 565 (lots used ones in central Canada - cheap in US $.)

There are folks in my family who want to investigate adding a sail
boat to the Short Wave fleet.

I'm considering one of those Sandpipers actually.

Later,

Tom

"Ummmmm" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi. My old Sunfish died last winter -- the transom has been patched
one time too many, finally fell off completely, so I am looking for a
new boat to replace it. I can get another Sunfish easily enough, but
I'd like to consider other options. The ones I have found are the
Vanguard Pico Plus, and the Esacpe Rumba / Escape 12. Anybody out
there have any experience with these, any other small sailboat (besides
the Sunfish) that I should look at?

I am a 230 lb, middle aged, not-so-athletic-anymore guy, with wife and
7 year old kid. It'd be nice to get us all on the boat, maybe,
sometimes. Usually it's just me and the kid. We live on Cape Cod
(windy), usually sail in ponds or harbors.

Any advice at all would be appreciated. Thanks.


I'd vote for this:

http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/gall..._num=16&res=lr

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me out a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he wanted me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
There are folks in my family who want to investigate adding a sail
boat to the Short Wave fleet.

I'm considering one of those Sandpipers actually.

Later,

Tom

if you plan on drysailing off a trailer...or beaching etc....very
practical..
.....if you plan on leaving it in the water all season, I'd also look at a
shoal keelboat like the Catalina (Capri) 18.
very similar in size & weight , except cockpit longer on the Capri and an
open cabin floor vs. the awkwark centerboard trunk on the 'Piper.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me out a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll
over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he wanted me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

Did you ever 'pitchpole' one? That might scare the little ones.

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:53:20 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me out
a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll
over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he wanted
me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

Did you ever 'pitchpole' one? That might scare the little ones.

It might. But you can sail one for years and never pitchpole or even
capize it if you don't want to. The only reason it will pitchpole or
capsize is if you're sailing it at the limit, trying to go as fast as
possible and have as much excitement and fun as possible. If you have
little ones on board, just don't do that. Unless you're in very high
winds (like over 30kts, which you shouldn't be anyway) if you don't
sheet in the main tight, you'll always keep both pontoons in the water.

Steve

Exactly. You don't have to sail like someone doing a Pepsi commercial,
trying to fly over waves. And as far as scaring the little ones, if they're
not swimming like porpoises by age 3 or 4, they have no business being in a
boat as open as a Hobie Cat or Sunfish anyway. I don't care if they've got a
PFD and 2 bodyguards from an Olympic swim team. Their confidence has to be
automatic and absolute.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:10:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:53:20 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me out
a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll
over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he wanted
me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

Did you ever 'pitchpole' one? That might scare the little ones.

It might. But you can sail one for years and never pitchpole or even
capize it if you don't want to. The only reason it will pitchpole or
capsize is if you're sailing it at the limit, trying to go as fast as
possible and have as much excitement and fun as possible. If you have
little ones on board, just don't do that. Unless you're in very high
winds (like over 30kts, which you shouldn't be anyway) if you don't
sheet in the main tight, you'll always keep both pontoons in the water.

Steve

Exactly. You don't have to sail like someone doing a Pepsi commercial,
trying to fly over waves. And as far as scaring the little ones, if they're
not swimming like porpoises by age 3 or 4, they have no business being in a
boat as open as a Hobie Cat or Sunfish anyway. I don't care if they've got a
PFD and 2 bodyguards from an Olympic swim team. Their confidence has to be
automatic and absolute.

Totally agree with you Doug.

Later,

Tom

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:54:43 -0500, HKrause
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

Might want to consider one of these beauties, made almost in your back yard.

http://www.stur-deeboat.com/sturdeecat.htm

They are ok boats. I might consider one.

Later,

Tom

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:51:33 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
There are folks in my family who want to investigate adding a sail
boat to the Short Wave fleet.

I'm considering one of those Sandpipers actually.

Later,

Tom

if you plan on drysailing off a trailer...or beaching etc....very
practical..
....if you plan on leaving it in the water all season, I'd also look at a
shoal keelboat like the Catalina (Capri) 18.
very similar in size & weight , except cockpit longer on the Capri and an
open cabin floor vs. the awkwark centerboard trunk on the 'Piper.

Duly noted.

Thanks.

Later,

Tom

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:10:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:53:20 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me
out
a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll
over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he
wanted
me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

Did you ever 'pitchpole' one? That might scare the little ones.

It might. But you can sail one for years and never pitchpole or even
capize it if you don't want to. The only reason it will pitchpole or
capsize is if you're sailing it at the limit, trying to go as fast as
possible and have as much excitement and fun as possible. If you have
little ones on board, just don't do that. Unless you're in very high
winds (like over 30kts, which you shouldn't be anyway) if you don't
sheet in the main tight, you'll always keep both pontoons in the water.

Steve

Exactly. You don't have to sail like someone doing a Pepsi commercial,
trying to fly over waves. And as far as scaring the little ones, if
they're
not swimming like porpoises by age 3 or 4, they have no business being in
a
boat as open as a Hobie Cat or Sunfish anyway. I don't care if they've got
a
PFD and 2 bodyguards from an Olympic swim team. Their confidence has to be
automatic and absolute.

Totally agree with you Doug.

Don't start with me Tom. I'll find you and beat you to death with a
chocolate bunny.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:41:46 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:10:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:53:20 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me
out
a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll
over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he
wanted
me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

Did you ever 'pitchpole' one? That might scare the little ones.

It might. But you can sail one for years and never pitchpole or even
capize it if you don't want to. The only reason it will pitchpole or
capsize is if you're sailing it at the limit, trying to go as fast as
possible and have as much excitement and fun as possible. If you have
little ones on board, just don't do that. Unless you're in very high
winds (like over 30kts, which you shouldn't be anyway) if you don't
sheet in the main tight, you'll always keep both pontoons in the water.

Steve

Exactly. You don't have to sail like someone doing a Pepsi commercial,
trying to fly over waves. And as far as scaring the little ones, if
they're
not swimming like porpoises by age 3 or 4, they have no business being in
a
boat as open as a Hobie Cat or Sunfish anyway. I don't care if they've got
a
PFD and 2 bodyguards from an Olympic swim team. Their confidence has to be
automatic and absolute.

Totally agree with you Doug.

Don't start with me Tom. I'll find you and beat you to death with a
chocolate bunny.

I guess you told me, huh?

Later,

Tom

"HarryKrause" wrote in message
...
On 26 Mar 2005 19:49:45 -0800, "Ummmmm" wrote:

Hi. My old Sunfish died last winter --

I had one of these when I was 4. Nice little boats.



Why do you clutter this newsgroup with all these faked ID posts? It is so
juvenile.

I used to sail a Hobie, years back. Yes, I have pitchpoled it. Ouch.
I gave them up in favor of sailboards at the time, because I was
interested in going real fast, and I got fewer, smaller bruises hitting
the spars on a sailboard.
I think Hobies are great in light to medium wind. Maybe its just my
memories of insane speed sailing on them, but I guess I'd rather have a
singlehull.

.... But you can sail one for years and never pitchpole or even
capize it if you don't want to. The only reason it will pitchpole or
capsize is if you're sailing it at the limit, trying to go as fast as
possible and have as much excitement and fun as possible.

That's not true. It may be true of some catamarans, but not of the
classic Hobie 16, with it's low volume hulls, and it's *definitely* not
true of the old Hobie 14. I once pitchpoled a Hobie 14... over it's
sterns... in no wind at all, just sitting too far aft and not paying
close enough attention as the aft most part of the hulls snuck under water.

A Hobie 16 probably wouldn't capsize with both hulls planted, but it's
still possible in moderate conditions... I've seen one go over from a
motorboat wake that put the lee bow under...

... Unless you're in very high
winds (like over 30kts, which you shouldn't be anyway) if you don't
sheet in the main tight, you'll always keep both pontoons in the water.


30 knots??!?!?


Doug Kanter wrote:
Exactly. You don't have to sail like someone doing a Pepsi commercial,
trying to fly over waves. And as far as scaring the little ones, if they're
not swimming like porpoises by age 3 or 4, they have no business being in a
boat as open as a Hobie Cat or Sunfish anyway. I don't care if they've got a
PFD and 2 bodyguards from an Olympic swim team. Their confidence has to be
automatic and absolute.


Very good idea to get the kids as skilled & confident in the water as
possible. For one thing, it's very good exercise.

Capsizing is simply part of the sport of sailing small crew-ballasted
sailboats. It will happen... even if you only sail in fine weather, take
it calmly, never cleat the sheets, etc etc. There will always be the
risk of a sudden squall, unexpected wind shift, or the like. If one
cannot accept that, and learn capsize drills, then one should not be
sailing small boats.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Pitchpoled while in the "Low Rent Regatta" in Virginia Beach. Racing with a
friend on his new Hobie 16. What a rush, flying thru the air on the end of a
string! Neither of us hit the mast. At that point we were in third place of
probably 120 boats and ended up finishing about 40th.
I later bought a Boston Whaler "Supercat 17". Great boat. Hulls were more
like a Nacra, rounded on top and spilled water if dug in instead of
submarining like the flat top Hobie 16 hulls. Had a lot more buoyancy too, a
full battened main, no boom, and roller furling.
MMC
"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me out
a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll
over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he wanted
me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

Did you ever 'pitchpole' one? That might scare the little ones.

Ummmmm wrote:

Hi. My old Sunfish died last winter -- the transom has been patched
one time too many, finally fell off completely, so I am looking for a
new boat to replace it. I can get another Sunfish easily enough, but
I'd like to consider other options. The ones I have found are the
Vanguard Pico Plus, and the Esacpe Rumba / Escape 12. Anybody out
there have any experience with these, any other small sailboat (besides
the Sunfish) that I should look at?

I am a 230 lb, middle aged, not-so-athletic-anymore guy, with wife and
7 year old kid. It'd be nice to get us all on the boat, maybe,
sometimes. Usually it's just me and the kid. We live on Cape Cod
(windy), usually sail in ponds or harbors.

Any advice at all would be appreciated. Thanks.


Take a look at the Alcort Puffer, too. Maybe a Windmill, DC/Designers
Choice, Chrysler Pirateer. All small sloops, good for ponds & harbors.
I see quite a few cats & Sunfish out on open beaches, surprisingly,
like in the Truro area. For longer days, or more room on Long Pond or
larger harbors, you would love a trailerable O'Day 16 or 17. You'll
find the wife will come along more often with a dryer ride, too.

HEY! Look what just came up on Google... here's your next boat!

http://www.marinebrokerage.com/cgi-b...a.cgi/16oday76

Less than half the price of a new Sunfish, too.

Rob

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:53:20 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

A friend had one many years ago. He was an expert, but he invited me out
a
few times and I had no trouble making the thing go, stop, but not roll
over.
Great little boats. Well....OK...I did roll it over once, but he wanted
me
to learn how far the thing could be pushed before that would happen.

Did you ever 'pitchpole' one? That might scare the little ones.

It might. But you can sail one for years and never pitchpole or even
capize it if you don't want to. The only reason it will pitchpole or
capsize is if you're sailing it at the limit, trying to go as fast as
possible and have as much excitement and fun as possible. If you have
little ones on board, just don't do that. Unless you're in very high
winds (like over 30kts, which you shouldn't be anyway) if you don't
sheet in the main tight, you'll always keep both pontoons in the water.

Steve

Exactly. You don't have to sail like someone doing a Pepsi commercial,
trying to fly over waves. And as far as scaring the little ones, if they're
not swimming like porpoises by age 3 or 4, they have no business being in a
boat as open as a Hobie Cat or Sunfish anyway. I don't care if they've got a
PFD and 2 bodyguards from an Olympic swim team. Their confidence has to be
automatic and absolute.

Steven Shelikoff wrote:
... A friend of mine has never tipped his hobie 16,
and he's sailed it for going on 15 years. I've only tipped mine a
couple of times, and only when I was sailing like I was in a Pepsi
commercial, as Doug says.


If you're flying a hull in a Hobie 16, you're courting a capsize. They
simply don't have enough reserve bouyancy.

If you only sail in winds less than 10 knots, then it should be easy to
avoid capsizes. OTOH I doubt very seriously that it's even manageable in
30 knot winds, unless you have cut-down or reefable sails.


.. I once pitchpoled a Hobie 14... over it's
sterns... in no wind at all, just sitting too far aft and not paying
close enough attention as the aft most part of the hulls snuck under water.


You might need to lose some weight.:)

Not really. 6' & 170#. The issue is the lack of hull volume & reserve
bouyancy.


... I sail with 4 people on my 16
with no problem.


While breathing helium, no doubt.


A Hobie 16 probably wouldn't capsize with both hulls planted, but it's
still possible in moderate conditions... I've seen one go over from a
motorboat wake that put the lee bow under...


A big motorboat wake can do all sorts of things to small boats. But a
Hobie 16 is a lot less likely to be swamped or capsized by the same wake
than a sunfish.


Hardly. The Sunfish has a great deal of reserve bouyancy & stability. It
probably has twice the hull volume (ie bouyancy) of the Hobie 16.

The problem with catamarans in general and Hobie 14s & 16s in particular
is that their stability is all front-end. They generate their max
righting moment at small angles of heel, and from there on they get
easier and easier to heel further. A gust of wind under the tramp and
ka-splash. With the Hobies, it's made worse by the tiny hulls. Once the
lee hull goes under... or even partially under, you have lost all
righting moment at that point and the boat just falls over.


30 knots??!?!?


That was an extreme. However, I have been out in mine by accident in
more than 30 knots. I got caught in a bad storm a couple of miles
offshore. I had to reef the main while out there, bobbing around in big
waves, high winds and lightning all around, standing at the front of the
pontoons trying to get the little ball on the halyard unsnapped and set
at the reef ball. It wasn't fun at all. But once I got the main
reefed, we screamed in towards shore with all that wind. Didn't capsize
either. It was great until the storm passed and we were hit by a calm
with about a mile to go and had to paddle in by hand the rest of the
way. Man were my arms sore the next day.


You were lucky you had reef points in the main. I hate halyard locks,
had a few similar episodes with them, but they do reduce compression on
the mast. Summer T-storms are a way of life.


.... If one
cannot accept that, and learn capsize drills, then one should not be
sailing small boats.


I agree that it's good to practice capsizing and righting small
sailboats. Having righting lines rigged on the hobie make it a lot
easier. But I still stand by my statement that you can sail one for
years without ever capsizing if you don't push the boat to the point
where one of the hulls comes out of the water and if you keep your
weight aft so you don't sink the forward part of a hull.


Obviously, it can be done. i wouldn't count on it though. And I wouldn't
sit too far aft.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

If you're flying a hull in a Hobie 16, you're courting a capsize. They
simply don't have enough reserve bouyancy.


Steven Shelikoff wrote:
Which is why I said, if you don't want to capsize, keep both hulls in
the water.

Or just leave it upside down to start with ;)

... And it's not reserve bouyancy that's the problem *if* you
keep your weight aft when flying (moving too far foward is when you
pitchpole).

It can still pitchpole if the bow digs in hard enough, such as when
encountering a big wake. And can capsize no matter what the fore/aft
weight placement if one hull submerges enough to lose righting moment.

... It's the fact that unlike a balasted monohull, righting
moment decreases with increasing heel. The thing that saves you is that
the side force from the wind decreases with increasing heel

Until it gets under the tramp.

.... so it's not
hard to find a balancing point.

Agreed, it's not too difficult. It's certainly much easier to sail a
Hobie Cat than one of the double-trap skiffs.

... I like the thrill
of hiking out on the trapeze while flying a hull low, or even with both
in the water. The sense of speed is greater when your body is suspended
way off the boat, just over the water.

True. It's even better with a spinnaker IMHO.

... There's nothing like the thrill
of being suspended just over the water while going 20kts. Of course,
you can do that in a monohull too. But the difference is that you go
way higher on a hobie cat when you start to heel more.


I sailed a friends Mystere 6m a number of times. It had hiking wings, a
very nice luxury, but when the boat heeled it put you *WAY* up in the air!


The boat seems to sail fastest with one hull just barely out of the
water.

In theory, that should be correct. AFAIK it's true in practice as well.


If you keep both hulls in the water, it can support a lot of weight.
It's rated max capacity is 800lbs

!!!!


... and I've had almost that much with no
problem at all. Of couse you notice a difference in handling and
responsiveness. But you're in no danger of capsizing if you keep both
hulls in the water, which isn't hard to do with 800lbs on board.

Can one hull support 800#? I'd be very very surprised. And my whole
point has been that once one hull is fully laden, and starting to
submerge, it contributes *nothing* to righting moment and the boat just
falls over. I suggest that if you carry 800# on a Hobie Cat, you're
flirting with this even if you don't realize it.






Hardly. The Sunfish has a great deal of reserve bouyancy & stability. It
probably has twice the hull volume (ie bouyancy) of the Hobie 16.


Lol. Hit a Sunfish and a Hobie 16 broadside by a hugh cruiser wake and
I gaurantee you that the sunfish will go over first.

Not if the Sunfish doesn't have a very large & heavy klutz on board.
I've never capsized a monohuls due to being hit by a wake, even when
planing. OTOH I've seen Hobie 16s go over both by pitchpoling, tripping
over a steep wake, and simply having the lee hull driven under.

... The form stability
of the Hobie 16 (a wide catamaran) is many times greater than a Sunfish
(a narrow monohull.)

That's true, as long as both hulls have a remaining margin of freboard
(un-immersed volume). You seem to keep skipping over this point.

... And you're wrong about the reserve bouyancy. The
Hobie 16 has about 300lbs more than a Sunfish.


Baloney. Look at the difference in hull volume... that *is* reserve
bouyancy. Two long very skinny triangular hulls have less volume than
one shallow V-bottom surfboard shaped hull... and the Hobie weighs more too.



And again, which is why I say that if you want to assure that you're not
going to capsize, keep both hulls in the water.

IMHO it is both wrong, and dangerous, to try and tell people that they
can guarantee not capsizing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King