On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:11:23 -0800, Melissa
wrote:

Being a bit claustrophobic with regards to underground exploration,
the "cave" paddling I've done is only into fairly shallow sea caves.
Do people even *paddle* in underground rivers running through caves?

A bunch of commercial caves have some sort of underground boating
experience. Bodies of water underground range from rather large lakes to
small streams. In the US, anyway. I've heard of incredible rivers and
caves, especially in the tropics. In the US most paddling in caves is
going to be accompanied by some sort of underground portage. I've been in
a few you could do some paddling in, but only a very few.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

It isn't at all unusual for the Nantahala in NC to be foggy. The water comes
from the bottom of Nantahala Lake and is pretty cool year round. On really
hot days a thick fog can form right over the water. The first time I ever
ran it, visibility was about ten feet, as thick as I've ever seen it. I was
a definite newbie to whitewater; I can still remember how hard my heart was
beating and how dry my mouth was approaching the roar that was Quarry Rapid.
I didn't see it until I was there, let the wave turn me sideways, and I took
a swim.
I've paddled the Nanty so many times now I've lost count. I always look
forward to Quarry now, but it was absolutely terrifying that first time in
the fog.
Some examples of Nanty fog:
http://webpages.charter.net/cegen/


TB


"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:06:44 -0800, Melissa
wrote:

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Hi Bob P,

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:16:16 GMT, you wrote:

But what if the water temp is 75F and the air is 25F? ;-)

In that case, the biggest hazard is 6-foot visibility due to the
fog...

Though not necessarily because of that type of extreme temperature
difference between water and air, I do at times find myself in that
type of visibility due to fog. It's much more reassuring in waters I
know very well though, and it definitely has its own particular
charms. A compass and the ability to navigate is always a good
thing.

I love being engulfed in fog (again, especially if it's in a
situation where I feel confident of my navigational capability in the
area), as being sensitive to sounds becomes ever more of an issue.
On my local waters, foggy paddling also provides some nice wildlife
surprises that can "pop up out of nowhere"...like whales, seals, and
the occasional sea lion, harbor porpoise, or even a shark.

Just a couple of years ago I ran into that sort of difference, but in
reverse. The air temp in Maine was in the upper 80s, while the water temp
was still in the low 40s, in June, the water hadn't warmed up, it was a
fairly cold spring up there. I didn't even get my kayak out of the van.
It would have topped 130 on the "add the temps together" scale, however.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

"TB" wrote in message
...
It isn't at all unusual for the Nantahala in NC to be foggy. The water
comes
from the bottom of Nantahala Lake and is pretty cool year round. On really
hot days a thick fog can form right over the water. The first time I ever
ran it, visibility was about ten feet, as thick as I've ever seen it. I
was
a definite newbie to whitewater; I can still remember how hard my heart
was
beating and how dry my mouth was approaching the roar that was Quarry
Rapid.
I didn't see it until I was there, let the wave turn me sideways, and I
took
a swim.
I've paddled the Nanty so many times now I've lost count. I always look
forward to Quarry now, but it was absolutely terrifying that first time in
the fog.
Some examples of Nanty fog:
http://webpages.charter.net/cegen/


A typical summer Grand Canyon run has air temps in the 110s, and wateroften
below 40. That's a 150 degree total, but the yakkers all dress for
immersion. Even in a raft, you might be sweltering so badly that your head
is reeling, but you still can't bring yourself to hop in, even for a second.

--riverman

TB wrote:
It isn't at all unusual for the Nantahala in NC to be foggy. The
water comes from the bottom of Nantahala Lake and is pretty cool year
round. On really hot days a thick fog can form right over the water.

I've beem on the Nantahala when the fog layer was hanging about 2 feet
above the water. Sit straight up and you can't see a thing; bend over
and it's crystal clear. Very disconcerting experience.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:11:23 -0800, Melissa
wrote:

Being a bit claustrophobic with regards to underground exploration,
the "cave" paddling I've done is only into fairly shallow sea caves.
Do people even *paddle* in underground rivers running through caves?

A bunch of commercial caves have some sort of underground boating
experience. Bodies of water underground range from rather large lakes to
small streams. In the US, anyway. I've heard of incredible rivers and
caves, especially in the tropics. In the US most paddling in caves is
going to be accompanied by some sort of underground portage. I've been in
a few you could do some paddling in, but only a very few.



Skocjanske Jame (jame = cave) in Solvenia
http://www.park-skocjanske-jame.si/B...keJameENG.html has a
spectacular underground river, the Reka, with torquoise-blue water and
stunning rock formations that runs through a several-miles long gorge before
emerging into a broad valley. I've always wondered what running that would
be like....I hear that it has head clearance the whole way, just a series of
underground class 2-3 rapids with pretty large falls and compression waves.

--riverman

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Carey Robson wrote:

Using air and/or water temperature to relate to river grades perverts the
river grading system. Dress for the water temperature on rivers. On the
west
coast of Canada you can almost always see the snow that the river is
coming
from. It isn't hard to figure the water temperature.

Yep, I agree. Paddling glacier melt rivers in the middle of the summer,
one learns that lesson very quickly! If I'm too hot, I'll roll to cool
off, if I'm too cold because I didn't wear enough for the water temp, I
might die.


Hmm, I'm not so certain the I agree that considering water temps perverts
the rating system, whether or not you are dressed appropriately. Ice cold
water is harder to paddle than pleasant tropical water for many reasons
(icecream headaches from face shots, hypothermia--even with appropriate
clothing, reaction time when you flip, the strength in your hands, ice crust
and other obstacles). And dressing appropriately for icy winter water is a
pretty bulky set-up, and will effectively change how you can paddle when
compared to the same rapid on a summer t-shirt and pfd day.

Besides, its already a pretty perverted system. Its supposed to define the
difficulty of the rapids, but what determines that? A rocky rapid is
harder in a breakable glass boat than in a plastic one. A beginner will find
the same rapid impossible that an expert finds simple. A raft and a kayak
will seldom agree on the difficulty of a rapid. A remote rapid with little
chance for rescue is considered harder than the exact same rapid if a road
was put in right next to it. A certain rapid is much harder in a torrential
rain with poor visibilty, or a snowstorm than on a sunny summer day. The
list goes on, and most folks have a very informal allegiance to it anyway.

Unless we want to standardize *everything*, rating systems regularly take
all sorts of variables into account, and produce all sorts of variations. To
truly have a standard system, I imagine a system that is based on assuming
all paddlers on all rivers:
a) wear appropriate clothing for whatever the current weather is and
that the particular clothing does not affect their paddling on that day.
b) are in the same type of boat ('glass, plastic, rubber, whatever)
which are the same type (raft, yak, canoe) and the same style (squirt,
downriver, playboats, slalom....)
d) have the same theoretical access/egress availability and accessiblity
for rescue
e) are being paddled by the same type of paddler (beginner,
intermediate, expert...)

etc etc.
As long as grading systems are NOT standardized for the myriad of possible
variables, then there's nothing perverse about including the restrictions of
clothing as a factor, IMHO.

--riverman

TB wrote:

It isn't at all unusual for the Nantahala in NC to be foggy. The water comes
from the bottom of Nantahala Lake and is pretty cool year round. On really
hot days a thick fog can form right over the water. The first time I ever
ran it, visibility was about ten feet, as thick as I've ever seen it.

I know! I HATE that! I've run the Nanty namy times, and occasionally, at least
once I remember, it was so foggy I could not see most eddies until it was too
late to set up to catch them! And eddies and eddy practice is superb on the
Nanty, but only when you can see 'em and catch 'em, yano? ;-)

John Kuthe...

John Kuthe wrote:
I know! I HATE that! I've run the Nanty namy times, and occasionally, at least
once I remember, it was so foggy I could not see most eddies until it was too
late to set up to catch them! And eddies and eddy practice is superb on the
Nanty, but only when you can see 'em and catch 'em, yano? ;-)

The Force, John, use the Force! Don't look for the eddies, listen for them.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Steve Cramer wrote:

John Kuthe wrote:
I know! I HATE that! I've run the Nanty namy times, and occasionally, at least
once I remember, it was so foggy I could not see most eddies until it was too
late to set up to catch them! And eddies and eddy practice is superb on the
Nanty, but only when you can see 'em and catch 'em, yano? ;-)

The Force, John, use the Force! Don't look for the eddies, listen for them.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

I'm far too visually dependent!! ;-) Besides, many eddied sound just like a ROCK,
yano? Hee hee!

John Kuthe...

riverman wrote:
"Wilko" wrote in message
...

Carey Robson wrote:


Using air and/or water temperature to relate to river grades perverts the
river grading system. Dress for the water temperature on rivers. On the
west
coast of Canada you can almost always see the snow that the river is
coming
from. It isn't hard to figure the water temperature.

Yep, I agree. Paddling glacier melt rivers in the middle of the summer,
one learns that lesson very quickly! If I'm too hot, I'll roll to cool
off, if I'm too cold because I didn't wear enough for the water temp, I
might die.



Hmm, I'm not so certain the I agree that considering water temps perverts
the rating system, whether or not you are dressed appropriately.

I agreed with the dressing for the water temp, that's all.

I guess I should have clipped the first sentence of Carey wrote.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/