information on sovereign 23 sailboat
 

Does anybody know anything about the Sovereign 23' sailboat? I'm
considering getting one to sail from Florida to the Bahamas, and do
seem weekend offshore sailing, and would like to know anybody's
opinions on the boat.

thanks.

milan ramaiya wrote:
Does anybody know anything about the Sovereign 23' sailboat? I'm
considering getting one to sail from Florida to the Bahamas, and do
seem weekend offshore sailing, and would like to know anybody's
opinions on the boat.


It's a nice enough boat. It would be easier to pick something that is
easier to trailer, and/or roomier, and/or a bit more of a performer
under sail. They were built by 3 different companies IIRC, the original
designer and then by the same company that made Bay Hens, then by Marine
Concepts who made Sea Pearls, Bay Hens, and Sovereigns.

Sovereign 23
LOA 23.0 LWL 18.5
Beam 8.0 Draft 2.2
Disp 3,200 Ballast 1,200
Sail Area 240
SA/D 17.7
L/D 226

Hope this helps.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:40:46 -0500, DSK wrote:

milan ramaiya wrote:
Does anybody know anything about the Sovereign 23' sailboat? I'm
considering getting one to sail from Florida to the Bahamas, and do
seem weekend offshore sailing, and would like to know anybody's
opinions on the boat.


It's a nice enough boat. It would be easier to pick something that is
easier to trailer, and/or roomier, and/or a bit more of a performer
under sail. They were built by 3 different companies IIRC, the original
designer and then by the same company that made Bay Hens, then by Marine
Concepts who made Sea Pearls, Bay Hens, and Sovereigns.

Sovereign 23
LOA 23.0 LWL 18.5
Beam 8.0 Draft 2.2
Disp 3,200 Ballast 1,200
Sail Area 240
SA/D 17.7
L/D 226

Hope this helps.

23 foot sail boat, about, what, 1,100 miles ENE, assuming from Miami,
through the Florida Strait - what's wrong with this picture? :)

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
23 foot sail boat, about, what, 1,100 miles ENE, assuming from Miami,
through the Florida Strait - what's wrong with this picture? :)


Shucks, people have sailed smaller & frailer boats across the Pacific...
around the world, for that matter. People have sailed Sunfish out to
Bimini and back, that's the Bahamas, ain't it?

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message Shucks, people have sailed
smaller & frailer boats across the Pacific...
around the world, for that matter. People have sailed Sunfish out to
Bimini and back, that's the Bahamas, ain't it?

DSK

Just last week some character wanted to sail a Nordica 16 to England from
the Maritimes.

Don White wrote:
Just last week some character wanted to sail a Nordica 16 to England from
the Maritimes.


That's a whole different can o'worms IMHO.

At least the Sovereign 23 is decked over (it might even have positive
flotation) and can carry supplies. It's also going to cover a lot more
ground in a day's sailing even if it's a relatively stodgy 23 footer.

The trip out to Bimini is a one-day event. You can pick the weather.
Crossing a major chunk of ocean is a take- whatever- she- throws- at-
you scenario.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

hope you have a strong stomach or many flat days and a good motor.



"milan ramaiya" wrote in message
oups.com...
Does anybody know anything about the Sovereign 23' sailboat? I'm
considering getting one to sail from Florida to the Bahamas, and do
seem weekend offshore sailing, and would like to know anybody's
opinions on the boat.

thanks.

So, how about this compared to an O'Day 23 or O'Day 27. Obviously the
27 would be the preferred choice over the 23, but I'm looking at a
bunch of different ones.

Thanks.

On 27 Dec 2004 21:30:41 -0800, "milan ramaiya"
wrote:
So, how about this compared to an O'Day 23 or O'Day 27. Obviously the
27 would be the preferred choice over the 23, but I'm looking at a
bunch of different ones.

=================================

There are so many good, older boats in the 30 to 34 foot range, that I
would not consider anything else for the kind of cruising you want to
do. If you really want smaller for some reason, look for an old
Pearson Triton. They are nearly indestructible.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:43:45 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On 27 Dec 2004 21:30:41 -0800, "milan ramaiya"
wrote:
So, how about this compared to an O'Day 23 or O'Day 27. Obviously the
27 would be the preferred choice over the 23, but I'm looking at a
bunch of different ones.

=================================

There are so many good, older boats in the 30 to 34 foot range, that I
would not consider anything else for the kind of cruising you want to
do. If you really want smaller for some reason, look for an old
Pearson Triton. They are nearly indestructible.

Good boats cheap too.

I just have a problem with sailing that distance in a 23 footer.

Maybe it's my advanced age. :)

Later,

Tom

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:53:09 -0500, DSK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
23 foot sail boat, about, what, 1,100 miles ENE, assuming from Miami,
through the Florida Strait - what's wrong with this picture? :)

Shucks, people have sailed smaller & frailer boats across the Pacific...
around the world, for that matter. People have sailed Sunfish out to
Bimini and back, that's the Bahamas, ain't it?

True. Maybe my sense of adventure is a little dulled by age. :)

Later,

Tom

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:17:40 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

I just have a problem with sailing that distance in a 23 footer.

Maybe it's my advanced age. :)

================================

Advanced age comes with advanced wisdom, at least that's what I tell
people. The REAL advantage of advanced age however, is that there
are more younger women.

milan ramaiya wrote:
So, how about this compared to an O'Day 23 or O'Day 27.

IMHO the difference between an O'Day 23 and a Sovereign 23 is going to
depend on the specific individual boats you're looking at. Price,
condition, and included equipment, will all far outweigh the nature of
the boats themselves.

Until you start looking at boats as disparate of type & form as, say, a
Cape Dory and a Santana/Schock, there's really very little functional
difference. Of course, the ad brochures will tell you different!

... Obviously the
27 would be the preferred choice over the 23

Sure, if you're convinced that bigger is better! It will definitely be
roomier and carry more stores, and make somewhat faster transits, and be
marginally steadier in rough weather. It will also be somewhat more
expensive to keep. No trailering the 27!

... but I'm looking at a
bunch of different ones.


That's the smart way to shop. What's your time frame? Getting underway
this spring?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
milan ramaiya wrote:
... but I'm looking at a
bunch of different ones.


That's the smart way to shop. What's your time frame? Getting
underway
this spring?


Preferably by spring or summer. My biggest constraint is price. If I
could afford it, sure, I'd get a 30-35 footer. So far, I've seen the
Sovereign 23, for $2000 which he said is in good condition, an O'Day 27
for $4000, which is in okay condition, but the engine needs work
(replacement?), and an O'Day 23 for $400, which is in bad shape, has no
sails and no engine. (It's got some hurricane damage.)

I'm considering buying the O'Day 23, and figure if I have a few months
to work on it, I can feed some money into it over time, and make it
really nice. If nothing else, I can turn around and sell it for much
more, and look at something else.

I'd like the O'Day 27 but I don't exactly have $4000 in my bank account
right now, and the Soveriegn is right in my budget, so it's looking
better and better.

Okay, I just found a '68 Star 23 for $1800. I'm gonna go look at that.

I'm not too concerned about the size of the boat. I'm actually looking
forward to some hairy experiences. Hell, that's what makes it
interesting, and it'll make me a better sailer.

this spring?


milan ramaiya wrote:
Preferably by spring or summer. My biggest constraint is price.

Yep. That's everyone's biggest constraint!

... If I
could afford it, sure, I'd get a 30-35 footer.

Getting it isn't the problem. Florida has always been one of the
nation's cheapest boat markets, now after the hurricanes it's a
give-away market.

Outfitting, maintenance, and overhead of simply keeping the thing, all
go up exponentially as the boat gets bigger. So IMHO it's smart to focus
on the smaller end of the scale.


... So far, I've seen the
Sovereign 23, for $2000 which he said is in good condition,

Well, sure. He's selling it, of course it's in *GREAT* condition!

Here's the way to de-code boat-seller's description-
Turn-key, better-than-new condition: the boat is currently afloat and
it's major systems are somewhat functional.

Great condition: The boat was floating last time the seller saw it. It
needs new sails, new running rigging, minor re-wiring, and the engine
can be got running if an expert mechanic tinkers with it for a couple hours.

Professionally maintained: Seller owes lots of money to the boatyard and
cannot reduce his asking price.

Good condition: Boat is scruffy and needs refitting. Engine might run if
you're really lucky, but needs overhaul.

Has full safety equipment: Boat comes with two dry-rotted life jackets
and a packet of out dated flares.

Needs TLC: the boat may be floating, but there has been a family of
pelicans camped out on it. Needs all new rigging and while you're at it,
a new spar or two might be in order. The hull has only a few small
holes, all wiring & plumbing needs to be replaced.

A fixer-upper: you could get it floating if you rent a couple of
gas-powered pumps and a work barge. Boat should have been landfilled
years ago but seller abandoned it to marina and has now been tracked
down by the state.

... an O'Day 27
for $4000, which is in okay condition, but the engine needs work
(replacement?), and an O'Day 23 for $400, which is in bad shape, has no
sails and no engine. (It's got some hurricane damage.)

I'm considering buying the O'Day 23, and figure if I have a few months
to work on it, I can feed some money into it over time, and make it
really nice. If nothing else, I can turn around and sell it for much
more, and look at something else.

Hah! You migh look at the price of sails & running rigging before you
try that. Also, flip through a West marine catalog and run up a little
shopping list of equipment you'd consider necessary.

The saddest, and most common, story is that of the guys who buy boats at
a 'bargain' price and then discover that by the time they've done a
little cleaning, painting, minor repairs, and added some equipment, that
the boat is worth only a fraction of what they've got in it. Remember
that the deal of a lifetime comes along about twice a week.


I'd like the O'Day 27 but I don't exactly have $4000 in my bank account
right now, and the Soveriegn is right in my budget, so it's looking
better and better.

Okay, I just found a '68 Star 23 for $1800. I'm gonna go look at that.

I'm not too concerned about the size of the boat. I'm actually looking
forward to some hairy experiences. Hell, that's what makes it
interesting, and it'll make me a better sailer.


Great attitude. The main suggeestion I have is to go to the library and
read some books on boat inspection & repair. The one to start with is
Ian Nicholson's 'Surveying Small Craft' which is dated but very thorough
and written so that a layman can grasp it all. My concern would be that
you come up with a boat that will not fold up on you in mid-adventure.

Because of the nature of what you're looking for, most of the boats most
suited to your adventure are not going to be on the internet. Instead,
go to boat yards & sailing clubs and poke around. Talk to people on the
docks. If you get invited aboard or to crew, go! It's a learning
opportunity!

Places to look
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/index.html.en
http://www2.boats.com/listing/cache/...src=header_bfs

pair of Seafarer 28s for cheap
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/5/77285675.htm
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/7/77252377.htm

Morgan 27- a relatively fast and well-built boat
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/3/0/56175130.htm

Here's a serious cruising vessel
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/9/75546979.htm

Another good one, priced higher but sounds good
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/0/8/52080308.htm

Remember that it's a buyer's market big-time. If the seller acts
offended at an offer, laugh and wish him luck.

Hope this helps.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 28 Dec 2004 07:07:23 -0800, "milan ramaiya"
wrote:


DSK wrote:
milan ramaiya wrote:
... but I'm looking at a
bunch of different ones.


That's the smart way to shop. What's your time frame? Getting
underway
this spring?


Preferably by spring or summer. My biggest constraint is price. If I
could afford it, sure, I'd get a 30-35 footer. So far, I've seen the
Sovereign 23, for $2000 which he said is in good condition, an O'Day 27
for $4000, which is in okay condition, but the engine needs work
(replacement?), and an O'Day 23 for $400, which is in bad shape, has no
sails and no engine. (It's got some hurricane damage.)

I'm considering buying the O'Day 23, and figure if I have a few months
to work on it, I can feed some money into it over time, and make it
really nice. If nothing else, I can turn around and sell it for much
more, and look at something else.

I'd like the O'Day 27 but I don't exactly have $4000 in my bank account
right now, and the Soveriegn is right in my budget, so it's looking
better and better.

Okay, I just found a '68 Star 23 for $1800. I'm gonna go look at that.

I'm not too concerned about the size of the boat. I'm actually looking
forward to some hairy experiences. Hell, that's what makes it
interesting, and it'll make me a better sailer.

States with or near water has places like this:

http://www.urifoundation.org/uriboats/index.html

Really nice boats cheap.

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

States with or near water has places like this:

http://www.urifoundation.org/uriboats/index.html

Really nice boats cheap.


Actually, URI works hard to get top dollar for their boats. The sailing
club works them over when they're donated, and they don't mind holding
on to a boat for a long time to get the money out of it. For example,
they've had that MX-20 for at least 2 years. Nice boat but clearly not
much demand for it. And they've gotten into motorboats, expect to see
more listings like that...

Down in Florida, Eckerd has a boat donation/sales program and at least
one fo the boats I gave links to was there. Some years ago my wife and I
almost bought an old classic yawl from them, but my wife was not
enthused about it as a project.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
States with or near water has places like this:

http://www.urifoundation.org/uriboats/index.html

Really nice boats cheap.

Forgot to mention-

That D&M 22 is a great boat. D&M were the predecessor to Tartan and they
build their boats very very well for the era. The 22 is a little
unconventional but a practical layout and they sail quite well (will
easily sail rings around a Catalina 22 for example).

DSK

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:56:20 -0500, DSK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
States with or near water has places like this:

http://www.urifoundation.org/uriboats/index.html

Really nice boats cheap.

Forgot to mention-

That D&M 22 is a great boat. D&M were the predecessor to Tartan and they
build their boats very very well for the era. The 22 is a little
unconventional but a practical layout and they sail quite well (will
easily sail rings around a Catalina 22 for example).

I bow to your superior knowledge of sail boats.

I sailed when I was a kid and owned a Towne class for club racing and
I even sailed in a Marblehead to Bermuda race.

It's really not my thing though.

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
I bow to your superior knowledge of sail boats.

It's not just sailboats ;)


I sailed when I was a kid and owned a Towne class for club racing and
I even sailed in a Marblehead to Bermuda race.

It's really not my thing though.


Was your Townie built by Lowell? Did you have one of those old fashioned
spinnakers? They are great boats, really classic. I've been to regattas
up in New England where there were Towns racing, would like to try one.
I have sailed an Indian which IIRC is the Town's big sister.

http://www.doryclub.org/townclass/tchistory.htm

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
this spring?


milan ramaiya wrote:
Preferably by spring or summer. My biggest constraint is price.

Yep. That's everyone's biggest constraint!

... If I
could afford it, sure, I'd get a 30-35 footer.

Getting it isn't the problem. Florida has always been one of the
nation's cheapest boat markets, now after the hurricanes it's a
give-away market.

Outfitting, maintenance, and overhead of simply keeping the thing,
all
go up exponentially as the boat gets bigger. So IMHO it's smart to
focus
on the smaller end of the scale.


... So far, I've seen the
Sovereign 23, for $2000 which he said is in good condition,

Well, sure. He's selling it, of course it's in *GREAT* condition!

Here's the way to de-code boat-seller's description-
Turn-key, better-than-new condition: the boat is currently afloat and

it's major systems are somewhat functional.

Great condition: The boat was floating last time the seller saw it.
It
needs new sails, new running rigging, minor re-wiring, and the engine

can be got running if an expert mechanic tinkers with it for a couple
hours.

Professionally maintained: Seller owes lots of money to the boatyard
and
cannot reduce his asking price.

Good condition: Boat is scruffy and needs refitting. Engine might run
if
you're really lucky, but needs overhaul.

Has full safety equipment: Boat comes with two dry-rotted life
jackets
and a packet of out dated flares.

Needs TLC: the boat may be floating, but there has been a family of
pelicans camped out on it. Needs all new rigging and while you're at
it,
a new spar or two might be in order. The hull has only a few small
holes, all wiring & plumbing needs to be replaced.

A fixer-upper: you could get it floating if you rent a couple of
gas-powered pumps and a work barge. Boat should have been landfilled
years ago but seller abandoned it to marina and has now been tracked
down by the state.


Ha! Yeah, I know the drill. I bought my first motorcycle a few years
ago. The guy said "It's runs great; I'm getting rid of it to get a
bigger bike. This would be an excellent first bike." That translated
to: "I'm an auctioneer, I've never ridden or worked on a bike in my
life, but I'm going to get under this and try to 'fix' it. It only runs
on two out of four cylinders, and has been completely patched with all
kinds of different parts." The mechanic's exact words we "Cut your
losses and sell it, this is worthless."

Which is why I'm definitely taking my time and figuring things out
first.

... an O'Day 27
for $4000, which is in okay condition, but the engine needs work
(replacement?), and an O'Day 23 for $400, which is in bad shape,
has no
sails and no engine. (It's got some hurricane damage.)

I'm considering buying the O'Day 23, and figure if I have a few
months
to work on it, I can feed some money into it over time, and make it
really nice. If nothing else, I can turn around and sell it for
much
more, and look at something else.

Hah! You migh look at the price of sails & running rigging before you

try that. Also, flip through a West marine catalog and run up a
little
shopping list of equipment you'd consider necessary.


Actually, that's what I was doing all day today: seeing how much new
masts and sails cost. I don't think I'm going that route.

The saddest, and most common, story is that of the guys who buy boats
at
a 'bargain' price and then discover that by the time they've done a
little cleaning, painting, minor repairs, and added some equipment,
that
the boat is worth only a fraction of what they've got in it. Remember

that the deal of a lifetime comes along about twice a week.


I'd like the O'Day 27 but I don't exactly have $4000 in my bank
account
right now, and the Soveriegn is right in my budget, so it's looking
better and better.

Okay, I just found a '68 Star 23 for $1800. I'm gonna go look at
that.

I'm not too concerned about the size of the boat. I'm actually
looking
forward to some hairy experiences. Hell, that's what makes it
interesting, and it'll make me a better sailer.


Great attitude. The main suggeestion I have is to go to the library
and
read some books on boat inspection & repair. The one to start with is

Ian Nicholson's 'Surveying Small Craft' which is dated but very
thorough
and written so that a layman can grasp it all. My concern would be
that
you come up with a boat that will not fold up on you in
mid-adventure.

Because of the nature of what you're looking for, most of the boats
most
suited to your adventure are not going to be on the internet.
Instead,
go to boat yards & sailing clubs and poke around. Talk to people on
the
docks. If you get invited aboard or to crew, go! It's a learning
opportunity!

Places to look
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/index.html.en

http://www2.boats.com/listing/cache/...src=header_bfs

pair of Seafarer 28s for cheap
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/5/77285675.htm
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/7/77252377.htm

Morgan 27- a relatively fast and well-built boat
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/3/0/56175130.htm

Here's a serious cruising vessel
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/9/75546979.htm

Another good one, priced higher but sounds good
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/0/8/52080308.htm


Remember that it's a buyer's market big-time. If the seller acts
offended at an offer, laugh and wish him luck.


Hope this helps.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Cool cool, thanks for all the info.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:34:07 -0500, DSK wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
I bow to your superior knowledge of sail boats.

It's not just sailboats ;)

Like I said, I bow to your superior...yada, yada, yada. :)

I sailed when I was a kid and owned a Towne class for club racing and
I even sailed in a Marblehead to Bermuda race.

It's really not my thing though.

Was your Townie built by Lowell?

I had to look it up in my logbook and it took a minute to find - yes,
it was a Lowell and was refit by John Cunningham (of Cunningham Dory
fame) after some damage in 1955. I believe they are still made by
Lowell, but now in fiberglass. Somebody once told me that there are
only a few, like 300 or so, of the wooden Townies left.

I don't own the boat anymore, my brother does.

Did you have one of those old fashioned spinnakers?

I seem to remember that it had the rigging for it, but I don't believe
that I ever used it.

They are great boats, really classic. I've been to regattas
up in New England where there were Towns racing, would like to try one.
I have sailed an Indian which IIRC is the Town's big sister.

http://www.doryclub.org/townclass/tchistory.htm

Never sailed the Indian, but I have sailed a 101, bunch of different J
class boats, two different 12 meter trial Cup boats (one of which was
built in Marblehead at the Lower Hood shipyard) and one February
afternoon in 15 mph wind and temps down around 15, a Frostbite race
which was the most miserable experience I've ever had. :)

Later,

Tom

milan ramaiya wrote:
Ha! Yeah, I know the drill. I bought my first motorcycle a few years
ago. The guy said "It's runs great; I'm getting rid of it to get a
bigger bike. This would be an excellent first bike." That translated
to: "I'm an auctioneer, I've never ridden or worked on a bike in my
life, but I'm going to get under this and try to 'fix' it. It only runs
on two out of four cylinders, and has been completely patched with all
kinds of different parts." The mechanic's exact words we "Cut your
losses and sell it, this is worthless."

I had a similar experience except in my case I traded an amplifier for
the bike. I got revenge by encouraging the trader to overload the amp
and blow it ;)


Which is why I'm definitely taking my time and figuring things out
first.

Smart move.

BTW a forum where sailing cruisers are more common is
"rec.boats.cruising" which I assume you can get to if you can get here.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Was your Townie built by Lowell?


Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
I had to look it up in my logbook and it took a minute to find - yes,
it was a Lowell and was refit by John Cunningham (of Cunningham Dory
fame) after some damage in 1955. I believe they are still made by
Lowell, but now in fiberglass. Somebody once told me that there are
only a few, like 300 or so, of the wooden Townies left.

I'd call that a lot among small old one-designs. A lot of classes never
had that many boats built in the first place! But a lot of them weren't
as nice, either.



I don't own the boat anymore, my brother does.


So you can still sail it if you ever want to?


Never sailed the Indian, but I have sailed a 101, bunch of different J
class boats, two different 12 meter trial Cup boats (one of which was
built in Marblehead at the Lower Hood shipyard) and one February
afternoon in 15 mph wind and temps down around 15, a Frostbite race
which was the most miserable experience I've ever had. :)


Yep... you have to be obsessed beyond all reason to enjoy frostbiting...
I love it because the wind is usually better and people don't start
tacking duels out of boredom... also I have three or four good wetsuits,
so freezing isn't a problem ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I am new to this site. I have a Sovereign 23 shoal draft and I am looking for a used jib to be used with a roller furling system that I have on my boat. can someone help?
Gerald Tunches
Corpus Christi, Texas

I also need information and pictures on how to set up my Sovereign 23. I noticed that it has no jib tracks on each side of boat. And on top of right side of cabin it has a winch and two rope clutches that I would like to know what they are for because they are only on one side.
you can e-mail me at
Thanks, Gerald

I just got a sovereign 23. Only sailed it a few times. It quick in a strong breeze, doesn't point that well. It's big for a 23 footer. Has a nice feel.