More documentation questions
 

Let's say I bought a five net ton boat to transport paying customers on
the Great Lakes out and back from the same location, not from one
location to another. These would be marketed as daytime or weekend
cruises, not fishing trips, although I could imagine someone might want
to fish. And what if the boat was not built in the US.

If my boat isn't built in the US, isn't there a waiver that can be
obtained for $300 to get around this US built requirement and allow me
to be documented? I believe this was extended indefinitely in September
of 2003.

I believe I am still required to be documented, however, in order to do
this type of activity, right? And which type of endorsement is required
for this, coastwise, great lakes or fishery? And can I obtain these with
this waiver?

Because this vessel would not fall under the "inspected" category, am I
limited to six paying customers even though my USCG license is a 50
Master's, Great Lakes?

And do these same documentation requirements hold if I am training
people to operate this type of boat?

Thanks!

Capt. Jeff

If my boat isn't built in the US, isn't there a waiver that can be
obtained for $300 to get around this US built requirement and allow me
to be documented? I believe this was extended indefinitely in September
of 2003.

You need to apply for an individual exemption from the Jones act.


I believe I am still required to be documented, however, in order to do
this type of activity, right? And which type of endorsement is required
for this, coastwise, great lakes or fishery? And can I obtain these with
this waiver?

If you're operating on the Great Lakes, it would seem reasonable that you will
probably need *at least* a GL endorsement. Check with your local CG office.



Because this vessel would not fall under the "inspected" category, am I
limited to six paying customers even though my USCG license is a 50
Master's, Great Lakes?

I believe you are restricted to six because you are uninspected. The limitation
of the vessel, not your master's license, applies.

And do these same documentation requirements hold if I am training
people to operate this type of boat?

Yes. You can't accept any money or other consideration for "training" unless
you are a licensed master. Even on somebody else's boat. The general theory
seems to be that if you are operating as an instructor on a vessel, it is under
your command.

Nothing precludes you from volunteering to give a few pointers to a friend with
a new boat- but if you get paid for instructing you need a license.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:57:55 -0600, Tamaroak
wrote:

Let's say I bought a five net ton boat to transport paying customers on
the Great Lakes out and back from the same location, not from one
location to another. These would be marketed as daytime or weekend
cruises, not fishing trips, although I could imagine someone might want
to fish. And what if the boat was not built in the US.

If my boat isn't built in the US, isn't there a waiver that can be
obtained for $300 to get around this US built requirement and allow me
to be documented? I believe this was extended indefinitely in September
of 2003.

It is my understanding that you can do this, but I can't find the
reference. The CG MSO locally can probably help you in this.

Although, I thought there was a reference somewhere that the vessel
has to be inspected at some point to obtain permanent documentation.

I believe I am still required to be documented, however, in order to do
this type of activity, right? And which type of endorsement is required
for this, coastwise, great lakes or fishery? And can I obtain these with
this waiver?

You mention further on down that you have a 50 ton Masters - as far as
I know, the only endorsements available for this license are sail,
towing and radar I believe. There may be state requirements for guide
licenses or certifications, but I can't speak to those.

You can operate OUPV and not have a documented vessel. We have
sailors around here who have OUPV tickets and take people on day/night
and several day cruises all the time and most aren't documented
vessels - these are uninspected passenger vessels run under OUPV
rules. The sailors over in Newport do this all the time.

Because this vessel would not fall under the "inspected" category, am I
limited to six paying customers even though my USCG license is a 50
Master's, Great Lakes?

No. There is such a thing as a demise charter in which you can take
up to twelve passengers or up to the rated capacity of the vessel if
it's less than twelve. It works this way - a group hires the boat and
you, as owner, provide them a list of certified Captains - one captain
on the list is sick, one is unavailable and you are the only one left.

The exact definition is this:

" contract whereby the shipowner leases its vessel to the charterer
for a period of time during which the whole use and management of the
vessel passes to the charterer. This involves the charterer paying all
expenses for the operation and maintenance of the vessel. Officers and
crew become servants of the charterer. A demise charter whereby the
charterer has the right to place its own master and crew on board of
the vessel."

That's the way it works with the exception of being limited to twelve
passengers. You can also find language similar to this when you look
up bareboat charters.

That you hold a 50 ton Masters, Great Lakes does not disallow you the
ability to go OUPV.

And do these same documentation requirements hold if I am training
people to operate this type of boat?

I'm not sure what you mean. If you are purchasing a vessel large
enough to require a crew to operate, then you are entering a whole
different area of law, both maritime and labor, not to mention
business. A little more information about the type of vessel would
help with the discussion.

Later,

Tom

On 26 Nov 2004 06:14:15 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

And do these same documentation requirements hold if I am training
people to operate this type of boat?

Yes. You can't accept any money or other consideration for "training" unless
you are a licensed master. Even on somebody else's boat. The general theory
seems to be that if you are operating as an instructor on a vessel, it is under
your command.

I'm not sure about this. It is my understanding that when you board
another vessel in a training scenario, even though you are being paid,
the nominal Captain of the vessel, as in the owner, is still legally
responsible for anything that goes wrong - it's the owners boat, they
are in command, you are only in an advisory role. The owner is not
hiring you to be Captain, the owner is hiring you to instruct - two
different things.

I have been told there is legal precedence for this and I will
endeavor to find the appropriate cite.

Later,

Tom

"Beware the one legged man in a butt
kicking contest - he is there for a
reason."

Wun Hung Lo - date unknown

Tamaroak wrote:
Let's say I bought a five net ton boat to transport paying customers on
the Great Lakes out and back from the same location, not from one
location to another. These would be marketed as daytime or weekend
cruises, not fishing trips, although I could imagine someone might want
to fish. And what if the boat was not built in the US.

If my boat isn't built in the US, isn't there a waiver that can be
obtained for $300 to get around this US built requirement and allow me
to be documented? I believe this was extended indefinitely in September
of 2003.

http://www.marad.dot.gov/Programs/smallvessel/



I believe I am still required to be documented, however, in order to do
this type of activity, right? And which type of endorsement is required
for this, coastwise, great lakes or fishery? And can I obtain these with
this waiver?

It would appear that the waiver requires documentation. Certainly you
can use a small US built non-documented boat for 6-pak type charters.

You should talk to you local CG to clarify all this.



Because this vessel would not fall under the "inspected" category, am I
limited to six paying customers even though my USCG license is a 50
Master's, Great Lakes?

Isn't understanding this aspect of the law part of the requirement for a
Master's ticket??? Maybe its time for a refresher course.



And do these same documentation requirements hold if I am training
people to operate this type of boat?

Are they paying for this training? You should talk to the CD about this
one.

A little more research reveals that the MARAD waiver program only deals
with coastwise endorsements to the documentation process, not the Great
Lakes endorsement, so it does not apply to my Canadian-built boat.

The Passenger Services Act states in full "No foreign vessel shall
transport passengers between ports or places in the United States,
either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 for
each passenger so transported and landed." This means that as long as
these are cruises or boat rides and I return my clients to where we
embarked, I am in compliance. The Jones Act only applies to cargo.

In reading over 46 CFR 67.7, it states, "Any vessel of at least five
tons which engages in the fisheries on the navigable waters of the US,
or in the EEZ, Great Lakes trade or coastwise trade" must be documented
and properly endorsed. It's not clear to me in this section whether this
means I can't let my clents fish in the Great Lakes without
documentation or that I can't "engage in Great Lakes trade" without
documentation.

The use of this term "Great Lakes trade" isn't clear to me. Is it just
to define the fishing area of the Great Lakes or does it mean some
activity that's not defined anywhere in the CFR that I could find?
Section 67.19 (b) talks about requiring a Great lakes endorsement for
"employment in the Great Lakes trade" but doesn't define it.

Another interesting angle is that 67.19 (c) (3) states "Vessels granted
coastwise trading priviledges by special legislation (67.132) can get a
Great Lakes endorsement. The MARAD waiver program might be defined as
"special legislation," but I can't find CFR 67.132 anywhere.

In reading over all these regs, I'm thinking that to take people out on
cruises on the Great Lakes on a non-US-built boat, I might not need to
be documented at all, as long as I don't transport them from one place
to another or let them fish. I'm trying to get written documentation of
the USCG interpretation of all of this before I go any further with
this, but like to get ideas from other folks out there who might have
covered this ground before.

Capt. Jeff

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:20:50 -0600, Tamaroak
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

The use of this term "Great Lakes trade" isn't clear to me. Is it just
to define the fishing area of the Great Lakes or does it mean some
activity that's not defined anywhere in the CFR that I could find?
Section 67.19 (b) talks about requiring a Great lakes endorsement for
"employment in the Great Lakes trade" but doesn't define it.

This should help a little:

http://www.cruisingthegreatlakes.org...trolling.shtml

By the way, I think you are way over complicating the whole issue of
what you can and can't do. If I understand your questions, the issue
isn't how many passengers, but a whole subset of extraneous issues
that just aren't relevant to what you are trying to do.

In short, if you use the OUPV capability, under demise or not, you are
limited to a max of twelve on an uninspected vessel.

It's that simple.

Just a thought.

Later,

Tom


Live long and prosper,

Tom

Tamaroak wrote in message ...
Let's say I bought a five net ton boat to transport paying customers on
the Great Lakes out and back from the same location, not from one
location to another. These would be marketed as daytime or weekend
cruises, not fishing trips, although I could imagine someone might want
to fish. And what if the boat was not built in the US.

If my boat isn't built in the US, isn't there a waiver that can be
obtained for $300 to get around this US built requirement and allow me
to be documented? I believe this was extended indefinitely in September
of 2003.

I believe I am still required to be documented, however, in order to do
this type of activity, right? And which type of endorsement is required
for this, coastwise, great lakes or fishery? And can I obtain these with
this waiver?

Because this vessel would not fall under the "inspected" category, am I
limited to six paying customers even though my USCG license is a 50
Master's, Great Lakes?

And do these same documentation requirements hold if I am training
people to operate this type of boat?

Thanks!

Capt. Jeff

Get an attorney.