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Sailboat as powered cruiser?
Hi all....
This past summer I got to use a friends inflatable avon with a 4 hp motor....and I really had a blast spending all day cruising around at about 4 knots in relative peace and quite and only using a few gallons of gas doing it...of course that thing was about as hydrodynamic as cinder block.... It sure was the opposite of when I was a kid when and my Dad would take us on a planing powered fishing boat, where we got beat to hell, went nearly deaf, got soaked always, and burned gas/money like the Rockefellers..... So, from my recent "cruising" experience, I've realized that slow and easy could be pretty darn fun....and I could actually stand going so slow....so I could cruise just for the sake of cruising on a nice day....or if I wanted to dive or fish I could stand taking ALL day doing it (because of the slow speed)...might as well since after a half day of fishing or diving Im so wiped out anyway I spend the rest of day just vegging out.....so might as well vegg out putting back to port in the boat.... Now, lets say I get the typical mostly enclosed small sailboat. Say 18 to 22 footer. How many HP would I need to push such a vessel at hull speed? And say for example that it calculates at 4HP, how much more power should I have in reserve to fight wind, waves, bad weather, avoiding running the engine at max power etc etc.... As an aside, around here...gulf of mexico, Pensacola Florida area...the ocean weather is not often bad....when its bad for long periods of time you know its coming and can avoid it....and generally if its something unexpected (ie pop up thunderstorms) it only last a few hours at most...so its not like I'd want a boat able to fight a New England type noreaster for days on end....and my uses would most often be the bays, intercoastal water way, and the occasional ocean jog 10 to 20 miles east/west of "the pass" and about 10 miles offshore max... Would a sailboat (without any of the sailing thingamabobs on it) make a decent day/long weekend powered cruiser when used in nice weather? And would it be reasonably safe (if not comfortable) in bad weather (compared to a high powered "normal" powerboat)?.... And would a sailboat in reasonably decent weather, say moderate swells, waves or chop, be a fairly comfortable boat when at anchor? (I would think the keel and its moment of inertia would help there) And I certainly like the idea of economical boating being of a rather cheap nature myself (and being poor at the moment makes for a really bad combination :).... Give the hurricane Ivan damage here, I could probably get a small sailboat hull here for nearly nothing (hell, some are still in the trees in the woods!).....amazing what a 40 foot storm surge will do!.....and a small outboard is no big deal....but I imagine trying to rigg out a sailboat with all the sailing "stuff" would probably make me faint cost wise..... take care and dont get to upset with my blasphemous quest! Any comments on the pros, cons, or possible gotcha's greatly appreciated! take care Blll |
"BllFs6" wrote in message ... Hi all.... snip Now, lets say I get the typical mostly enclosed small sailboat. Say 18 to 22 footer. How many HP would I need to push such a vessel at hull speed? And say for example that it calculates at 4HP, how much more power should I have in reserve to fight wind, waves, bad weather, avoiding running the engine at max power etc etc.... snip Hallelujah! You've seen the light! Sounds like you'd be a very good candidate for a sailboat but I would recommend taking sailing lessons. You'll have a bit more to think about underway than a small powerboater. I have a Sandpiper 565 which is 18' 6" long. It's a mini-cruiser with accomodations for two adults (plus 2 small children) and an MSD type of head with it's own holding tank and pump out outlet. Most of these boats were sold with a 6hp Evinrude Yachtwin back in the eighties and a trailer. The beauty of this size sailboat is... you can probably leave in your driveway on the trailer and avoid expensive marinas easy for two to rig, yet can be done singlehanded when setup properly Since you only use the motor a fraction of the time, gas expense/noise level minimal If you need or want to, you can overnight.... good second hand models fairly plentiful at a rock bottom price (approx $ 4K US for my model) You get the 'right of way' while sailing..and the right to feel superior to those gas/diesel guzzling environment destroying motorboaters. :-) |
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Wayne.B wrote in message . ..
On 15 Nov 2004 14:29:56 GMT, (BllFs6) wrote: Now, lets say I get the typical mostly enclosed small sailboat. Say 18 to 22 footer. How many HP would I need to push such a vessel at hull speed? And say for example that it calculates at 4HP, how much more power should I have in reserve to fight wind, waves, bad weather, avoiding running the engine at max power etc etc.... =================================== 3 or 4 hp would push it to hull speed (around 5 kts) in flat water and light wind. A total of 6 to 8 hp would be plenty for adverse conditions. Some things to consider: Get the longest shaft that you can to minimize prop pull out on wave tops. Get a prop with at least 3 or 4 blades and a low pitch, so that the engine can get up to speed and develop maximum thrust. They are available for small OBs but it may take some shopping around. While you are at it, get comfortable with sailing at the same time. It's lots of fun and the ultimate in redundant backup systems. Redundancy indeed...A friend of mine always said his ketch had 5 engines. One diesel and 4 sails. anyway, a couple other things to think about - if you're talking about a sailboat with no 'thingamabobs' as being one without the standing rig itself....bad idea. if it's stability you're looking for, leave the rig there, even if you don't intend to sail it. You'll be much better off. Also, learn to sail! If efficiency is a concern, you can't get much more efficient than 'free fuel'! i.e. the wind! And it's fun, rewarding, and frankly, will teach you a lot more about being on the water than any power boat. Tides, current, wind, weather...right down to the benefit of tying a decent knot etc...all become more apparent under sail, and that knowledge does help you become a better overall boater in my opinion. Lastly, one thing to be said for the powerboat comparison you mentioned r.e. bad weather...yes, a small sailboat will likely have a 'better' comparitive ride, but the small powerboat will probably be tucked back into port while you're still enjoying that 'better' ride! I don't know, having owned both - they each have their benefits, but I'd have to say (keeping in mind I now own a 42' trawler) that I enjoyed sailing that small Alberg 22' sloop as much or more than running any of the other smaller powerboats I've owned. Best of luck.... Capt. Rob Welling Sarasota, FL |
Presuming you really don't want to sail. You might want to look at small
trawlers. If you do not want to sail what you are really after is called a displacement hull. And with a small engine they do cruise a long ways at a modest speed and not using a whole lot of fuel. A sail boat is designed to be efficient at sailing and if you're never going to sail you might as well have some beam. "BllFs6" wrote in message ... Hi all.... This past summer I got to use a friends inflatable avon with a 4 hp motor....and I really had a blast spending all day cruising around at about 4 knots in relative peace and quite and only using a few gallons of gas doing it...of course that thing was about as hydrodynamic as cinder block.... It sure was the opposite of when I was a kid when and my Dad would take us on a planing powered fishing boat, where we got beat to hell, went nearly deaf, got soaked always, and burned gas/money like the Rockefellers..... So, from my recent "cruising" experience, I've realized that slow and easy could be pretty darn fun....and I could actually stand going so slow....so I could cruise just for the sake of cruising on a nice day....or if I wanted to dive or fish I could stand taking ALL day doing it (because of the slow speed)...might as well since after a half day of fishing or diving Im so wiped out anyway I spend the rest of day just vegging out.....so might as well vegg out putting back to port in the boat.... Now, lets say I get the typical mostly enclosed small sailboat. Say 18 to 22 footer. How many HP would I need to push such a vessel at hull speed? And say for example that it calculates at 4HP, how much more power should I have in reserve to fight wind, waves, bad weather, avoiding running the engine at max power etc etc.... As an aside, around here...gulf of mexico, Pensacola Florida area...the ocean weather is not often bad....when its bad for long periods of time you know its coming and can avoid it....and generally if its something unexpected (ie pop up thunderstorms) it only last a few hours at most...so its not like I'd want a boat able to fight a New England type noreaster for days on end....and my uses would most often be the bays, intercoastal water way, and the occasional ocean jog 10 to 20 miles east/west of "the pass" and about 10 miles offshore max... Would a sailboat (without any of the sailing thingamabobs on it) make a decent day/long weekend powered cruiser when used in nice weather? And would it be reasonably safe (if not comfortable) in bad weather (compared to a high powered "normal" powerboat)?.... And would a sailboat in reasonably decent weather, say moderate swells, waves or chop, be a fairly comfortable boat when at anchor? (I would think the keel and its moment of inertia would help there) And I certainly like the idea of economical boating being of a rather cheap nature myself (and being poor at the moment makes for a really bad combination :).... Give the hurricane Ivan damage here, I could probably get a small sailboat hull here for nearly nothing (hell, some are still in the trees in the woods!).....amazing what a 40 foot storm surge will do!.....and a small outboard is no big deal....but I imagine trying to rigg out a sailboat with all the sailing "stuff" would probably make me faint cost wise..... take care and dont get to upset with my blasphemous quest! Any comments on the pros, cons, or possible gotcha's greatly appreciated! take care Blll |
JamesgangNC wrote:
Presuming you really don't want to sail. You might want to look at small trawlers. If you do not want to sail what you are really after is called a displacement hull. And with a small engine they do cruise a long ways at a modest speed and not using a whole lot of fuel. A sail boat is designed to be efficient at sailing and if you're never going to sail you might as well have some beam. "BllFs6" wrote in message ... I think you missed some of BllFs6's equation. He's also looking for bang for the buck, and as such I think he has a heck of a good idea. There's a combination sailboat/powerboat called a McGregor (sp?) that can be sailed or powered, usually with a 40 or 50 horse outboard. I've seen one pulling a water skier. True blowboaters are apparently offended when someone calls a McGregor a sailboat, but it has it's purpose, I guess. I think BllFs6 has a great idea. A long range cruiser at a fraction of the cost. Next he'll be adding a generator, another bank of house batteries, new wiring, autopilot ... etc. etc. Eisboch |
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I sort of did this. Got a 25'er and since the wind only pushes it to about
3 mph I just use the 6 hp OB, which pushes it to about 5-6 mph. 2 strokes suck gas. The ocean is NOT a pleasant place to be unless you're in a 60+ foot boat. My boat bobs around like a cork on 3-6 foot swells, which are the norm in my area. You can hardly go to the bathroom, you can't cook, you can't relax at all. While trying to put the sail up/down I end up hanging onto the mast for dear life while the boat flops around over the swells. There's no way you'd get any sleep on the ocean until you've thoroughly acclimated yourself to the constant throwing around. You will be hating life if you try to head out on the ocean in a small sailboat and try any semblance of 'cruising.' It'll take you weeks to get used to the noise and the bouncing at night, and by that time you'll be sick of it. "BllFs6" wrote in message ... Hi all.... This past summer I got to use a friends inflatable avon with a 4 hp motor....and I really had a blast spending all day cruising around at about 4 knots in relative peace and quite and only using a few gallons of gas doing it...of course that thing was about as hydrodynamic as cinder block.... It sure was the opposite of when I was a kid when and my Dad would take us on a planing powered fishing boat, where we got beat to hell, went nearly deaf, got soaked always, and burned gas/money like the Rockefellers..... So, from my recent "cruising" experience, I've realized that slow and easy could be pretty darn fun....and I could actually stand going so slow....so I could cruise just for the sake of cruising on a nice day....or if I wanted to dive or fish I could stand taking ALL day doing it (because of the slow speed)...might as well since after a half day of fishing or diving Im so wiped out anyway I spend the rest of day just vegging out.....so might as well vegg out putting back to port in the boat.... Now, lets say I get the typical mostly enclosed small sailboat. Say 18 to 22 footer. How many HP would I need to push such a vessel at hull speed? And say for example that it calculates at 4HP, how much more power should I have in reserve to fight wind, waves, bad weather, avoiding running the engine at max power etc etc.... As an aside, around here...gulf of mexico, Pensacola Florida area...the ocean weather is not often bad....when its bad for long periods of time you know its coming and can avoid it....and generally if its something unexpected (ie pop up thunderstorms) it only last a few hours at most...so its not like I'd want a boat able to fight a New England type noreaster for days on end....and my uses would most often be the bays, intercoastal water way, and the occasional ocean jog 10 to 20 miles east/west of "the pass" and about 10 miles offshore max... Would a sailboat (without any of the sailing thingamabobs on it) make a decent day/long weekend powered cruiser when used in nice weather? And would it be reasonably safe (if not comfortable) in bad weather (compared to a high powered "normal" powerboat)?.... And would a sailboat in reasonably decent weather, say moderate swells, waves or chop, be a fairly comfortable boat when at anchor? (I would think the keel and its moment of inertia would help there) And I certainly like the idea of economical boating being of a rather cheap nature myself (and being poor at the moment makes for a really bad combination :).... Give the hurricane Ivan damage here, I could probably get a small sailboat hull here for nearly nothing (hell, some are still in the trees in the woods!).....amazing what a 40 foot storm surge will do!.....and a small outboard is no big deal....but I imagine trying to rigg out a sailboat with all the sailing "stuff" would probably make me faint cost wise..... take care and dont get to upset with my blasphemous quest! Any comments on the pros, cons, or possible gotcha's greatly appreciated! take care Blll |
Falky foo wrote:
The ocean is NOT a pleasant place to be unless you're in a 60+ foot boat. My boat bobs around like a cork on 3-6 foot swells, which are the norm in my area. You can hardly go to the bathroom, you can't cook, you can't relax at all. While trying to put the sail up/down I end up hanging onto the mast for dear life while the boat flops around over the swells. There's no way you'd get any sleep on the ocean until you've thoroughly acclimated yourself to the constant throwing around. You will be hating life if you try to head out on the ocean in a small sailboat and try any semblance of 'cruising.' It'll take you weeks to get used to the noise and the bouncing at night, and by that time you'll be sick of it. But, other than those minor inconveniences, it's great fun. Eisboch |
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:08:52 GMT, "Falky foo"
wrote: I sort of did this. Got a 25'er and since the wind only pushes it to about 3 mph I just use the 6 hp OB, which pushes it to about 5-6 mph. 2 strokes suck gas. The ocean is NOT a pleasant place to be unless you're in a 60+ foot boat. My boat bobs around like a cork on 3-6 foot swells, which are the norm in my area. You can hardly go to the bathroom, you can't cook, you can't relax at all. While trying to put the sail up/down I end up hanging onto the mast for dear life while the boat flops around over the swells. There's no way you'd get any sleep on the ocean until you've thoroughly acclimated yourself to the constant throwing around. You will be hating life if you try to head out on the ocean in a small sailboat and try any semblance of 'cruising.' It'll take you weeks to get used to the noise and the bouncing at night, and by that time you'll be sick of it. Under normal circumstances, that would be called fun - or surfing. Later, Tom |
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:29:56 +0000, BllFs6 wrote:
Hi all.... This past summer I got to use a friends inflatable avon with a 4 hp motor....and I really had a blast spending all day cruising around at about 4 knots in relative peace and quite and only using a few gallons of gas doing it...of course that thing was about as hydrodynamic as cinder block.... It sure was the opposite of when I was a kid when and my Dad would take us on a planing powered fishing boat, where we got beat to hell, went nearly deaf, got soaked always, and burned gas/money like the Rockefellers..... So, from my recent "cruising" experience, I've realized that slow and easy could be pretty darn fun....and I could actually stand going so slow....so I could cruise just for the sake of cruising on a nice day....or if I wanted to dive or fish I could stand taking ALL day doing it (because of the slow speed)...might as well since after a half day of fishing or diving Im so wiped out anyway I spend the rest of day just vegging out.....so might as well vegg out putting back to port in the boat.... Now, lets say I get the typical mostly enclosed small sailboat. Say 18 to 22 footer. How many HP would I need to push such a vessel at hull speed? And say for example that it calculates at 4HP, how much more power should I have in reserve to fight wind, waves, bad weather, avoiding running the engine at max power etc etc.... That's a Really Good Idea. All other things considered (such as being able to "run" to safe water) a small sailboat is MUCH safer and more comfortable in rough seas. Even little 22-footers are capable of being turned completely upside-down and they will right themselves. As others have mentioned, start out with sails down as a powerboat. Then, slowly, work your way into sailing: raise the main and get the advantage of increased stability (and, if you trim it right, an auto-helm!) Pull out the genny downwind and enjoy silent cruising. Or, go completely power and remove the mast and have a swing-keel, retracted. 7.5 should be enough, 9.9 plenty. The McGreggor is an option, but for what they are, they're EXPENSIVE! $30K CDN for a "bare-bones" 26-ft boat?? You can get a nice Catalina 22 for 1/2 that, and they sail better! My Favourites in that size are the Cal/Crown line (as long as you're not going to trailer them). Cal20, Crown 23, Cal 25. Not that great for room, but they sail well, INCREDIBLY seaworthy, and you can pick up a used one for $5K. Or, you can try to find a Folkboat 25 with an inboard diesel, or a Bayfield... Lloyd Sumpter "Far Cove" Catalina 36 - powerboat with new 26hp diesel |
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:08:52 GMT, "Falky foo"
wrote: The ocean is NOT a pleasant place to be unless you're in a 60+ foot boat. ======================================== My experience has been that from the mid 40s on up is usually a decent ride. I've sailed to Bermuda 4 times on sailboats 48 to 55 feet and they were all fairly comfortable. My 2 trips on a light, fast 41 were anything but. |
"BllFs6" wrote in message ... Hi all.... or if I wanted to dive or fish I could stand taking ALL day doing it (because of the slow speed). A sailboat is not a very good platform for fishing and especially poor for diving. Getting back in a sailboat with scuba gear could be quite a challenge Now, lets say I get the typical mostly enclosed small sailboat. Say 18 to 22 footer. That is pretty small! I would recommend a 25 foot boat as a minimum. How many HP would I need to push such a vessel at hull speed? And say for example that it calculates at 4HP, how much more power should I have in reserve to fight wind, waves, bad weather, avoiding running the engine at max power etc etc.... I would recommend getting as much as the boat can handle. You can always throttle it back. and generally if its something unexpected (ie pop up thunderstorms) it only last a few hours at most. If the boat can't handle the conditions you could be dead in a few hours..... jog 10 to 20 miles east/west of "the pass" and about 10 miles offshore max... Being close to the shore doesn't help you unless you can find shelter there. Indeed, if the wind is coming from the ocean towards the shore being too close can be a real problem. Being a mile from shore but twenty miles from port still means you have twenty miles to go to get to shelter. Would a sailboat (without any of the sailing thingamabobs on it) make a decent day/long weekend powered cruiser when used in nice weather? A weekend on an 18 foot sailboat would be really cramped! At 25 feet two people could be reasonably comfortable. And would it be reasonably safe (if not comfortable) in bad weather (compared to a high powered "normal" powerboat)?.... A sailboat tends to be very stable, and as long as you haven' t piled the decks high with gear it could be quite sea-worthy. Comfortable can be a different issue. In bad weather, you are going to get tossed around. Some people can handle this fine, others get so sea-sick they can't function. The boat can (probably will) leak and get everything inside wet. Most small sailboats are tiller steered from the cockpit which means you have to be out in the weather, which usually isn't too comfortable. Compare this to a small powerboat that has an inside helm that can keep you reasonably dry and warm. And I certainly like the idea of economical boating being of a rather cheap nature myself (and being poor at the moment makes for a really bad combination :).... Well, my first recommendation would be that if you are going to get a sailboat, learn to sail! Think of how much more pleasant the cruise would be if you weren't listening to the whine of that outboard and smelling its fumes! Furthermore, in a decent wind you might actually make better time with the sails then you could with the outboard. If the wind isn't cooperating or blowing the wrong direction then you can fire up the motor and cruise on in. It would also be safer, as you could always sail if the motor died on you. If you really didn't want to sail then I would recommend getting a power boat that was built to go slow. A trawler or tug style boat would be just your ticket, something with a displacement hull that could cruise along at 8 knots and not burn too much fuel doing it. The power boat will give you a lot more useable space for a given length of boat and if you get a platform off the transom it would be a lot better platform for diving. Rod McInnis |
Many sailboaters motor with the sail up just to slow the rolling.
G "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:29:23 GMT, wrote: Please explain why the righting moment of a sailboat would be improved by more weight, higher up! I can't wait to hear this one. ====================================== Righting moment is not improved of course, but roll resistance is improved a lot. A sailboat with out its mast will roll gunnel to gunnel in any kind of seaway. I once found that out the hard way on a dark and stormy night off the New Jersey coast. Not a fun ride. |
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