OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 09:22:33 -0500, "John Gaquin"
wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
news:npeJb.32917

..... But, "characterizing" can also
be a form of translation when you're not dealing with a foreign language,
but instead trying to understand gibberish.

I agree.

The ability and opportunity to characterize speech can help bring clarity
and understanding to those who otherwise simply wouldn't truly comprehend
what is happening. For example, in cases where circumstances require that
you carefully and specifically define the meaning of the word "is", or to
help elucidate the meaning of convoluted or confusing statements like "I
did not have sexual relations with that woman -- Ms Lewinski."

That sort of thing.

I see. (meaning - I read.) This characterizing thing is becoming quite
clear. I do appreciate all the help with my language arts.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Characterizing" sounds like a neat trick. That means I can basically
do whatever I want with someone's
statement.

No, you can't just screw around with an acutal quote and claim that "Bush
said..................." if Bush did not. That's not characterization.

Reread the item that has you confused.
It compared two possible approaches to
diplomacy, from the perspective of the US
"speaking" to a foreign power.
There was no claim that either of the contrasting statements were attributable
to
any specific person or group. Why you now insist on infering that there was is
a bit puzzling. It's almost as if you're hoping to distract from the message by
shifitng discussion to the medium.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"John H" wrote in message
...


I see. (meaning - I read.) This characterizing thing is becoming quite
clear. I do appreciate all the help with my language arts.

John H


Sometimes, it's conversationally useful to take a situation or a piece of
writing and interpret in an extreme way which borders on the absurd. That
doesn't always falsify the original information, but it may serve to plow
through the cotton some people insert in their ears each morning.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 15:56:23 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
.. .


I see. (meaning - I read.) This characterizing thing is becoming quite
clear. I do appreciate all the help with my language arts.

John H


Sometimes, it's conversationally useful to take a situation or a piece of
writing and interpret in an extreme way which borders on the absurd. That
doesn't always falsify the original information, but it may serve to plow
through the cotton some people insert in their ears each morning.


As a matter of fact, it seems as though there are several people in
this news group who do interpret a piece of writing in an extreme way,
bordering on the absurd. Very often, it does falsify the original
information. Yet these folks see no problem in this, and even seem to
believe the extremely absurd "characterizations" they have developed.

Have you noticed this?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On 02 Jan 2004 15:47:17 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

"Characterizing" sounds like a neat trick. That means I can basically
do whatever I want with someone's
statement.

No, you can't just screw around with an acutal quote and claim that "Bush
said..................." if Bush did not. That's not characterization.

Reread the item that has you confused.
It compared two possible approaches to
diplomacy, from the perspective of the US
"speaking" to a foreign power.
There was no claim that either of the contrasting statements were attributable
to
any specific person or group. Why you now insist on infering that there was is
a bit puzzling. It's almost as if you're hoping to distract from the message by
shifitng discussion to the medium.

Then what was the purpose in the statements? The discussion had to do
with the PNAC, not made up statements. In fact, I have been trying to
get you to stick to what's written.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"John H" wrote in message
...


Sometimes, it's conversationally useful to take a situation or a piece of
writing and interpret in an extreme way which borders on the absurd. That
doesn't always falsify the original information, but it may serve to plow
through the cotton some people insert in their ears each morning.


As a matter of fact, it seems as though there are several people in
this news group who do interpret a piece of writing in an extreme way,
bordering on the absurd. Very often, it does falsify the original
information. Yet these folks see no problem in this, and even seem to
believe the extremely absurd "characterizations" they have developed.

Have you noticed this?

John H

Maybe. :-) But,. it's 45 degrees, the rain has stopped, and I'm having
hallucinations. There are brown trout drifting along the wall behind my
desk. I can't focus on anything else at the moment.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...


I see. (meaning - I read.) This characterizing thing is becoming quite
clear. I do appreciate all the help with my language arts.

John H


Sometimes, it's conversationally useful to take a situation or a piece of
writing and interpret in an extreme way which borders on the absurd. That
doesn't always falsify the original information, but it may serve to plow
through the cotton some people insert in their ears each morning.



You're wasting your time with John Herring. He lives in a rigid little
box and can't see its corners, never mind the opening at the top.

--
Email sent to is never read.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

John Gaquin wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
news:npeJb.32917

..... But, "characterizing" can also
be a form of translation when you're not dealing with a foreign language,
but instead trying to understand gibberish.

I agree.

The ability and opportunity to characterize speech can help bring clarity
and understanding to those who otherwise simply wouldn't truly comprehend
what is happening. For example, in cases where circumstances require that
you carefully and specifically define the meaning of the word "is", or to
help elucidate the meaning of convoluted or confusing statements like "I
did not have sexual relations with that woman -- Ms Lewinski."

That sort of thing.



Yes, clarity would certainly help George W. Bush overcome his incessant
lying about everything important.



--
Email sent to is never read.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:27:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
.. .


Sometimes, it's conversationally useful to take a situation or a piece of
writing and interpret in an extreme way which borders on the absurd. That
doesn't always falsify the original information, but it may serve to plow
through the cotton some people insert in their ears each morning.


As a matter of fact, it seems as though there are several people in
this news group who do interpret a piece of writing in an extreme way,
bordering on the absurd. Very often, it does falsify the original
information. Yet these folks see no problem in this, and even seem to
believe the extremely absurd "characterizations" they have developed.

Have you noticed this?

John H

Maybe. :-) But,. it's 45 degrees, the rain has stopped, and I'm having
hallucinations. There are brown trout drifting along the wall behind my
desk. I can't focus on anything else at the moment.

It's 48 here in northern VA, and there are no trout to be seen. Where
are you? Out there in Seattle with Chuck?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"John H" wrote in message
...


As a matter of fact, it seems as though there are several people in
this news group who do interpret a piece of writing in an extreme way,
bordering on the absurd. Very often, it does falsify the original
information. Yet these folks see no problem in this, and even seem to
believe the extremely absurd "characterizations" they have developed.

Have you noticed this?

John H

Maybe. :-) But,. it's 45 degrees, the rain has stopped, and I'm having
hallucinations. There are brown trout drifting along the wall behind my
desk. I can't focus on anything else at the moment.

It's 48 here in northern VA, and there are no trout to be seen. Where
are you? Out there in Seattle with Chuck?

John H

I'm in Rochester NY. There are TWO trout to be seen on my kitchen counter.
The first 4 were too small to keep. Frankly, it's not supposed to work this
well. I'm really surprised. There's a hatchery about 2 miles upstream from
where I fished, and I thought maybe they'd released a few. But, these fish
are much more colorful than the ones that've lived on hatchery food. It
usually takes them a good 3-4 months of yummy bug dinners to develop the
wild color.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

It's 48 here in northern VA, and there are no trout to be seen.

....And it's supposed to be 72 and sunny tomorrow here in Richmond, VA!!!! Is
this supposed to be winter? ....NOT!

Heck, tomorrow, I'm going to play golf with some friends. Forget going
hunting. With that kind of weather, all the ducks and geese won't migrate
south - they are all still up in PA, NY, and Canada.

Butch Ammon

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Butch Ammon" wrote in message
...
It's 48 here in northern VA, and there are no trout to be seen.

...And it's supposed to be 72 and sunny tomorrow here in Richmond, VA!!!!
Is
this supposed to be winter? ....NOT!

Heck, tomorrow, I'm going to play golf with some friends. Forget going
hunting. With that kind of weather, all the ducks and geese won't migrate
south - they are all still up in PA, NY, and Canada.

Butch Ammon

There are about 6 trillion ducks here in Rochester, all flocking around some
guy who seems to have an endless supply of bread in his car, and he never
goes home. Are these the ducks you were looking for? Want me to knock him in
the water? :-)

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Heck, tomorrow, I'm going to play golf with some friends. Forget going
hunting. With that kind of weather, all the ducks and geese won't migrate
south - they are all still up in PA, NY, and Canada.

Butch Ammon

There are about 6 trillion ducks here in Rochester, all flocking around some
guy who seems to have an endless supply of bread in his car, and he never
goes home. Are these the ducks you were looking for? Want me to knock him in
the water? :-)


Yes, please.... :- What northern folks are technically doing is called "Short
Stopping". Ducks and Geese will not migrate to southern climates when they
have a permanent food supply. I know that the organization Ducks Unlimited is
all up on it and trying to stop it.

Butch Ammon

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Butch Ammon" wrote in message
...
Heck, tomorrow, I'm going to play golf with some friends. Forget going
hunting. With that kind of weather, all the ducks and geese won't
migrate
south - they are all still up in PA, NY, and Canada.

Butch Ammon

There are about 6 trillion ducks here in Rochester, all flocking around
some
guy who seems to have an endless supply of bread in his car, and he never
goes home. Are these the ducks you were looking for? Want me to knock him
in
the water? :-)


Yes, please.... :- What northern folks are technically doing is called
"Short
Stopping". Ducks and Geese will not migrate to southern climates when
they
have a permanent food supply. I know that the organization Ducks
Unlimited is
all up on it and trying to stop it.

Butch Ammon

I read that feeding them makes them congregate in bunches that are much
larger than they would gather in normally. The result is that duck diseases
spread much more quickly. It makes sense. In wild places, I've never seen
hundreds hanging out together.

I've mentioned this to 2-3 people who had multiple loaves of Wonder Bread
with them, but they just drooled and gave me a vacant stare. I guess George
Carlin will never run out of stupid people for his comedy.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Butch Ammon" wrote in message
...
Heck, tomorrow, I'm going to play golf with some friends. Forget going
hunting. With that kind of weather, all the ducks and geese won't
migrate
south - they are all still up in PA, NY, and Canada.

Butch Ammon

There are about 6 trillion ducks here in Rochester, all flocking around
some
guy who seems to have an endless supply of bread in his car, and he never
goes home. Are these the ducks you were looking for? Want me to knock him
in
the water? :-)


Yes, please.... :- What northern folks are technically doing is called
"Short
Stopping". Ducks and Geese will not migrate to southern climates when
they
have a permanent food supply. I know that the organization Ducks
Unlimited is
all up on it and trying to stop it.

Butch Ammon

I read that feeding them makes them congregate in bunches that are much
larger than they would gather in normally. The result is that duck diseases
spread much more quickly. It makes sense. In wild places, I've never seen
hundreds hanging out together.

I've mentioned this to 2-3 people who had multiple loaves of Wonder Bread
with them, but they just drooled and gave me a vacant stare. I guess George
Carlin will never run out of stupid people for his comedy.

We had about a dozen ducks in our yard this morning, stopping off for
some corn and fresh water. We usually have a double handful of ducks or
geese in the yard for a spell during part of each day until about
mid-December, but this year, they're hanging about longer.

I think they've figured out that the signs that say "Hunters Will Be
Shot on Sight" make the acreage so protected in our immediate area a
safe zone.



--
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OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


I think they've figured out that the signs that say "Hunters Will Be
Shot on Sight" make the acreage so protected in our immediate area a
safe zone.


Around here, we don't threaten hunters. They tend to shoot themselves or
their hunting buddies. I've met perhaps 50 in the 20 years I've lived here.
But, I've only met about 4 who made me thing "That's an artist". The rest
were silly people in camo.

A few years ago, I went into the woods with a neighbor who'd been hunting on
his dad's 400 acres for many years. Pretty impressive. He spent the first
two weeks of deer season carrying no gun, just binoculars, a thermos, a
camera, and a notepad. Anytime the news reported that a hunter had killed
himself or his buddy, he'd mutter "Cool. Just got safer for me." :-)

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


I think they've figured out that the signs that say "Hunters Will Be
Shot on Sight" make the acreage so protected in our immediate area a
safe zone.


Around here, we don't threaten hunters. They tend to shoot themselves or
their hunting buddies. I've met perhaps 50 in the 20 years I've lived here.
But, I've only met about 4 who made me thing "That's an artist". The rest
were silly people in camo.

A few years ago, I went into the woods with a neighbor who'd been hunting on
his dad's 400 acres for many years. Pretty impressive. He spent the first
two weeks of deer season carrying no gun, just binoculars, a thermos, a
camera, and a notepad. Anytime the news reported that a hunter had killed
himself or his buddy, he'd mutter "Cool. Just got safer for me." :-)



I've never seen stats on shooting accidents involving hunters, but, of
course, I've noticed the backpage headlines in the newspaper when it
happens. It does seem to occur with some frequency, and I'm guessing it
is the result of booze, stupidity or just outright carelessness.

I just can't buy into the hunting scene. There was a bit on one of the
TV outdoor shows last night where a young kid was out with his dad,
grandad or uncle, not sure which, and they were ISO turkeys to shoot.
They enticed a huge tom into their sights about 25' away and after some
coaxing, the kid blasted the bird. I was thinking that if the kid had
been fishing, he could have had a few minutes of fun and then released
his catch.





--
Email sent to is never read.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

I think it's great. The dad/granddad/uncle taught the young boy how to get a
turkey to have for food. I have gone turkey hunting many times and it is a
real challenge. Turkeys can see in full color like a human and their sight is
50 times more sharper than ours. In other words, a turkey can see you blink
your eyes from 200 yards away!

Say what you want, but I know from experience turkey hunting is real battle of
wits and patience.

Butch Ammon

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Butch Ammon wrote:
I think it's great. The dad/granddad/uncle taught the young boy how to get a
turkey to have for food.

The dad/grand-dad/uncle would better serve the kid by making sure he
knows how to read and how to otherwise prepare himself intellectually
for this unbrave new world. If you want food, you can go to Giant or
Safeware.


I have gone turkey hunting many times and it is a
real challenge. Turkeys can see in full color like a human and their sight is
50 times more sharper than ours. In other words, a turkey can see you blink
your eyes from 200 yards away!

So?



Say what you want, but I know from experience turkey hunting is real battle of
wits and patience.

Butch Ammon


You've outwitted a turkey, eh?




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OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Say what you want, but I know from experience turkey hunting is real battle
of
wits and patience.

Butch Ammon


You've outwitted a turkey, eh?


Not exactly.... I've been "busted", as the saying goes, way too many times.
Turkeys always seem to have this sixth sense and know where I am and they know
the range of a shotgun too. They are very smart and frustrating for hunters to
hunt.

Question: You mentioned something about food at Giant, Safeware, or even
Kroger's, Ukrop's, Food Lion, etc... How did those Butterball Turkeys get in
the supermarket? Turkey hunting just saves a trip to the store, IMHO. Please
tell me you celebrate Thanksgiving and eat a turkey with your family.

Butch Ammon

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Butch Ammon wrote:

Say what you want, but I know from experience turkey hunting is real battle
of
wits and patience.

Butch Ammon


You've outwitted a turkey, eh?


Not exactly.... I've been "busted", as the saying goes, way too many times.
Turkeys always seem to have this sixth sense and know where I am and they know
the range of a shotgun too. They are very smart and frustrating for hunters to
hunt.

Question: You mentioned something about food at Giant, Safeware, or even
Kroger's, Ukrop's, Food Lion, etc... How did those Butterball Turkeys get in
the supermarket? Turkey hunting just saves a trip to the store, IMHO. Please
tell me you celebrate Thanksgiving and eat a turkey with your family.

Butch Ammon

They are delivered in a truck, Butch.

I buy my Thanksgiving turkey at Giant. It's usually a loss-leader item.
I got a 20-pound, Grade A, U.S. Government inspected fresh turkey for
about 90 cents a pound, cleaned and ready to stuff.

It was delicious.

How long did it take you to clean the turkey you didn't catch? And how
do you know it was disease-free?

h.



--
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OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

I've raised a couple turkeys for food and it's more of a PITA than it's
worth. It was only tolerable because I did it along side the show ducks. But
turkeys get into more trouble than ducks - LOL.

That said, were I to see a huge tom, I'd most likely blast it too. I *like*
turkey for dinner. That said, it sounds like more trouble than it's worth.
If
the damn things are that savvy in the wild - it's easier to catch one at the
store.

And I paid .60 a pound for my loss leaders over the holidays. :p

-W (had turkey last night - the shrink wrapped kind)



"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Butch Ammon wrote:

Say what you want, but I know from experience turkey hunting is real
battle
of
wits and patience.

Butch Ammon


You've outwitted a turkey, eh?


Not exactly.... I've been "busted", as the saying goes, way too many
times.
Turkeys always seem to have this sixth sense and know where I am and
they know
the range of a shotgun too. They are very smart and frustrating for
hunters to
hunt.

Question: You mentioned something about food at Giant, Safeware, or
even
Kroger's, Ukrop's, Food Lion, etc... How did those Butterball Turkeys
get in
the supermarket? Turkey hunting just saves a trip to the store, IMHO.
Please
tell me you celebrate Thanksgiving and eat a turkey with your family.

Butch Ammon

They are delivered in a truck, Butch.

I buy my Thanksgiving turkey at Giant. It's usually a loss-leader item.
I got a 20-pound, Grade A, U.S. Government inspected fresh turkey for
about 90 cents a pound, cleaned and ready to stuff.

It was delicious.

How long did it take you to clean the turkey you didn't catch? And how
do you know it was disease-free?

h.



--
Email sent to is never read.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


I've never seen stats on shooting accidents involving hunters, but, of
course, I've noticed the backpage headlines in the newspaper when it
happens. It does seem to occur with some frequency, and I'm guessing it
is the result of booze, stupidity or just outright carelessness.

According to my friend, "don't climb a tree with your gun loaded" is one of
the most often ignored rules. A lot of guns handed down from grandpa (and
probably some newer ones) won't pass the "drop test".


I just can't buy into the hunting scene. There was a bit on one of the
TV outdoor shows last night where a young kid was out with his dad,
grandad or uncle, not sure which, and they were ISO turkeys to shoot.
They enticed a huge tom into their sights about 25' away and after some
coaxing, the kid blasted the bird. I was thinking that if the kid had
been fishing, he could have had a few minutes of fun and then released
his catch.

A) They ate it.
B) It's better than anything you buy in the store.
C) The ones you buy in the store (believe it or not) were alive before they
were killed.

I'd like to mount a few trophy hunters on the wall, but people who hunt
responsibly and eat what they get? What's the problem with that?

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Butch Ammon wrote:
I think it's great. The dad/granddad/uncle taught the young boy how to
get a
turkey to have for food.

The dad/grand-dad/uncle would better serve the kid by making sure he
knows how to read and how to otherwise prepare himself intellectually
for this unbrave new world. If you want food, you can go to Giant or
Safeware.

.....and get a turkey pumped full of antibiotics, a turkey that for reasons
nobody understands, has been bred and fed to produce a huge chunk of dried
out white meat. And, when they're killed, it's done in a way that's no more
or less humane than a hunted bird. I got my turkey in November from a local
farm. I asked the guy how they were killed. He said "You don't wanna know,
and we do it the best way possible".


I have gone turkey hunting many times and it is a
real challenge. Turkeys can see in full color like a human and their
sight is
50 times more sharper than ours. In other words, a turkey can see you
blink
your eyes from 200 yards away!

So?

So, he just deflated the kneejerk nonsense about how the odds are stacked in
the hunter's favor when turkey hunting.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

At least it lets the kid know where meat comes from. As to turkey prices.
At Thanksgiving, Safeway had up to a 16# turkey for $4.99. About 31 cents a
pound.
Bill

"Clams Canino" wrote in message
news:N9CJb.275143$_M.1299325@attbi_s54...
I've raised a couple turkeys for food and it's more of a PITA than it's
worth. It was only tolerable because I did it along side the show ducks.
But
turkeys get into more trouble than ducks - LOL.

That said, were I to see a huge tom, I'd most likely blast it too. I
*like*
turkey for dinner. That said, it sounds like more trouble than it's worth.
If
the damn things are that savvy in the wild - it's easier to catch one at
the
store.

And I paid .60 a pound for my loss leaders over the holidays. :p

-W (had turkey last night - the shrink wrapped kind)



"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Butch Ammon wrote:

Say what you want, but I know from experience turkey hunting is real
battle
of
wits and patience.

Butch Ammon


You've outwitted a turkey, eh?


Not exactly.... I've been "busted", as the saying goes, way too many
times.
Turkeys always seem to have this sixth sense and know where I am and
they know
the range of a shotgun too. They are very smart and frustrating for
hunters to
hunt.

Question: You mentioned something about food at Giant, Safeware, or
even
Kroger's, Ukrop's, Food Lion, etc... How did those Butterball Turkeys
get in
the supermarket? Turkey hunting just saves a trip to the store, IMHO.
Please
tell me you celebrate Thanksgiving and eat a turkey with your family.

Butch Ammon

They are delivered in a truck, Butch.

I buy my Thanksgiving turkey at Giant. It's usually a loss-leader item.
I got a 20-pound, Grade A, U.S. Government inspected fresh turkey for
about 90 cents a pound, cleaned and ready to stuff.

It was delicious.

How long did it take you to clean the turkey you didn't catch? And how
do you know it was disease-free?

h.



--
Email sent to is never read.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:04:06 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
.. .

Read the site. I suspect you've never delved deeper than the "Statement
of
Priniciples". When you have made a study of the entire PNAC program,
we'll be
on the same playing field in this discussion.

Before we start arguing the merits of each individual article on the
site, I think it's fair to discuss the principles of the organization.
We started with your comments shaping circumstances for favorable
outcomes, which you found arrogant. However, from later posts it seems
you agree with that statement.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

I doubt that Chuck disagrees completely with the idea of meddling PEACEFULLY
in order to create favorable political or economic situations. Every country
on earth does that to the best of its ability. I suspect the problem is that
people involved with the PNAC have already demonstrated that whether to
meddle peacefully or with weapons is pretty much a coin toss - a 50/50
chance of either happening. Not much different than standing in the cleaning
products at the supermarket and picking Ajax instead of Comet because it
doesn't make much difference.

Doug, this could be true, but Chuck referred to the shaping of
circumstances as arrogant. He didn't limit the shaping to combative
shaping.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"John H" wrote in message
...


I doubt that Chuck disagrees completely with the idea of meddling
PEACEFULLY
in order to create favorable political or economic situations. Every
country
on earth does that to the best of its ability. I suspect the problem is
that
people involved with the PNAC have already demonstrated that whether to
meddle peacefully or with weapons is pretty much a coin toss - a 50/50
chance of either happening. Not much different than standing in the
cleaning
products at the supermarket and picking Ajax instead of Comet because it
doesn't make much difference.

Doug, this could be true, but Chuck referred to the shaping of
circumstances as arrogant. He didn't limit the shaping to combative
shaping.

John H

Maybe Mrs Chuck shaped circumstances in such a way that he had to spend an
unwanted afternoon with a relative he's not fond of, so he expanded this
attitude to encompass world politics. I can't believe Chuck thinks EVERYONE
doesn't shape circumstances at one time or another. Even him. :-)

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

Maybe Mrs Chuck shaped circumstances in such a way that he had to spend an
unwanted afternoon with a relative he's not fond of, so he expanded this
attitude to encompass world politics. I can't believe Chuck thinks EVERYONE
doesn't shape circumstances at one time or another. Even him. :-)


It would be arrogant for me to assume I had the right, (perhaps the divine
imperative!), to shape curcumstances on the rest of the planet for my personal
benefit.

http://www.tomorrowsbestseller.com/w...State/book.asp

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Maybe Mrs Chuck shaped circumstances in such a way that he had to spend
an
unwanted afternoon with a relative he's not fond of, so he expanded this
attitude to encompass world politics. I can't believe Chuck thinks
EVERYONE
doesn't shape circumstances at one time or another. Even him. :-)


It would be arrogant for me to assume I had the right, (perhaps the divine
imperative!), to shape curcumstances on the rest of the planet for my
personal
benefit.


http://www.tomorrowsbestseller.com/w...State/book.asp

Chuck, I'm talking about doing it through any peaceful means, such as
diplomacy, above-board win-win financial arrangements, etc. By "win-win", I
don't mean that an American company gets permission to mine copper by paying
off some generalissimo, while the workers are essentially slaves from the
nearest prison. There *are* real-life situations which are better than that.
If you call Microsoft tech support at 3:00 AM Eastern time, you stand a good
chance of speaking to someone from Ireland or India.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:35:20 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
.. .


I doubt that Chuck disagrees completely with the idea of meddling
PEACEFULLY
in order to create favorable political or economic situations. Every
country
on earth does that to the best of its ability. I suspect the problem is
that
people involved with the PNAC have already demonstrated that whether to
meddle peacefully or with weapons is pretty much a coin toss - a 50/50
chance of either happening. Not much different than standing in the
cleaning
products at the supermarket and picking Ajax instead of Comet because it
doesn't make much difference.

Doug, this could be true, but Chuck referred to the shaping of
circumstances as arrogant. He didn't limit the shaping to combative
shaping.

John H

Maybe Mrs Chuck shaped circumstances in such a way that he had to spend an
unwanted afternoon with a relative he's not fond of, so he expanded this
attitude to encompass world politics. I can't believe Chuck thinks EVERYONE
doesn't shape circumstances at one time or another. Even him. :-)

I think Chuck is a great guy. He is going to take my brother and I on
his boat, and they are not going to get my in a crossfire,
politically. But, he's the one that said it, not me. I didn't make it
up!

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On 08 Jan 2004 18:10:51 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Maybe Mrs Chuck shaped circumstances in such a way that he had to spend an
unwanted afternoon with a relative he's not fond of, so he expanded this
attitude to encompass world politics. I can't believe Chuck thinks EVERYONE
doesn't shape circumstances at one time or another. Even him. :-)


It would be arrogant for me to assume I had the right, (perhaps the divine
imperative!), to shape curcumstances on the rest of the planet for my personal
benefit.

http://www.tomorrowsbestseller.com/w...State/book.asp

Chuck, this book doesn't seem like an unbiased explanation of the
Patriot Act.

I don't think it would be arrogant of you to *try* to shape
circumstances on this planet for any reason you desire. After all,
isn't that what you are attempting in this NG, albeit at a smaller
scale?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On 08 Jan 2004 18:10:51 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Maybe Mrs Chuck shaped circumstances in such a way that he had to spend an
unwanted afternoon with a relative he's not fond of, so he expanded this
attitude to encompass world politics. I can't believe Chuck thinks EVERYONE
doesn't shape circumstances at one time or another. Even him. :-)


It would be arrogant for me to assume I had the right, (perhaps the divine
imperative!), to shape curcumstances on the rest of the planet for my personal
benefit.


But what about for the benefit of society?

Dave

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Joe" wrote in message ...
You get dumber by the day, Mr. Kevin Noble.

You can't post here anymore, Joe, remember? Going to live up to YOUR
statements, or lying as usual?

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

But what about for the benefit of society?

Dave


You shape domestic circumstances for the benefit of domestic society.

We have no business making a decision about what will be best for the society
of some other nation. They have right to self determination.

We can persuade, negotiate, trade, etc.
We should not intimidate or bully.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On 09 Jan 2004 16:59:48 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

But what about for the benefit of society?

Dave


You shape domestic circumstances for the benefit of domestic society.


True.


We have no business making a decision about what will be best for the society
of some other nation. They have right to self determination.

Not under the oppressive rule of a tyrannical dictator. That's why wee
need to "help" them to this goal.


We can persuade, negotiate, trade, etc.
We should not intimidate or bully.

I say that the ends justify the means in this case.


Dave

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

We have no business making a decision about what will be best for the
society
of some other nation. They have right to self determination.

Not under the oppressive rule of a tyrannical dictator. That's why wee
need to "help" them to this goal.

And who decides that a government is oppressive, tyrannical, or dictatorial?

By what standards?

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
We have no business making a decision about what will be best for the
society
of some other nation. They have right to self determination.

Not under the oppressive rule of a tyrannical dictator. That's why wee
need to "help" them to this goal.

And who decides that a government is oppressive, tyrannical, or
dictatorial?

By what standards?

You have already done just that. What was your criteria?

Bert

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On 13 Jan 2004 14:41:46 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

We have no business making a decision about what will be best for the
society
of some other nation. They have right to self determination.

Not under the oppressive rule of a tyrannical dictator. That's why wee
need to "help" them to this goal.

And who decides that a government is oppressive, tyrannical, or dictatorial?

By what standards?

That should be fairly obvious. When the rights of the citizens of a
particular country are oppressed to the point where they live in fear
for their lives if they happen to inadvertently break some strange
"law", then I'd say that that government qualifies.

Also, if the leader of said country invades another country for the
sole purpose of taking it over and subjugating the population for his
own benefit, then that also qualifies. If the country also takes an
aggressive policy of amassing a large arsenal of weapons with the
intent to use them (domestically or otherwise), then I'd say that
qualifies as well.


Dave

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


Also, if the leader of said country invades another country for the
sole purpose of taking it over and subjugating the population for his
own benefit, then that also qualifies.

Hey...we did this recently.

If the country also takes an
aggressive policy of amassing a large arsenal of weapons with the
intent to use them (domestically or otherwise), then I'd say that
qualifies as well.

We've been doing this since 1946. We supposedly stopped creating chem/bio
weapons, but the nuclear arsenal continues to grow.

OT for Conservatives who think war is grand
 

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:54:38 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .


Also, if the leader of said country invades another country for the
sole purpose of taking it over and subjugating the population for his
own benefit, then that also qualifies.

Hey...we did this recently.

When?



If the country also takes an
aggressive policy of amassing a large arsenal of weapons with the
intent to use them (domestically or otherwise), then I'd say that
qualifies as well.

We've been doing this since 1946. We supposedly stopped creating chem/bio
weapons, but the nuclear arsenal continues to grow.

Really? Where did you hear that we are still building nukes? According
to the various START and SALT treaties, we should v'e been reducing
that stockpile.


Dave