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Water in engine oil - How Common ?
Hello :
I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph |
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over the
transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at: http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph |
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at: http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves. It ain't supposed to happen, but it can. Eisboch |
Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before a
noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that it is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash your tail. As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a sb as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil. The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any more than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan and that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the oil? "Eisboch" wrote in message ... Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote: Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at: http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves. It ain't supposed to happen, but it can. Eisboch |
"Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" I have owned a wide variety of boats and I have never had water get into the engine. and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. While it is possible that water can get ingested into the engine the likely scenario is that it gets sucked into the cylinders and hydrolocks the engine. You would know it if this happened to you. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. I think so too. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? I have never heard of this being a problem in a stock engine, but it can be a problem with a modified engine. It is common for a "high performance" engine to use a cam that has significant overlap between exhaust and intake. The overlap really helps at the really high RPMs but it kills idle. These are the engines that "lope" as they idle or simply won't idle below 1000 RPM at all. Even in these engines it is only a problem if there is very little drop distance from the elbow to the exhaust manifold. Again, if you sucked water into the cylinder you would know it when you tried to start up again. A more common hydrolock situation is the result of an engine that "runs on" or "diesels" when you shut it down. It is common for these engines to actually run backwards for a bit, which can really suck water up from the exhaust. Again, first clue is that you can't crank the engine over again until you pull the spark plugs and drain the water out. No matter what, water in the oil is NOT normal. Rod McInnis |
To All :
Thanks for your quick responses. The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water did not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout. The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or may have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from the ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine or stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from just being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the BoatUS consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a design flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction of water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during the intake stroke. I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and Volvo. Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo. If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks like a design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm probably not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due to poor design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed correctly in the first place. We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ... I've had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy the "this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw. Boats are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To tell me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp loading areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer engineer .. if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats SHOULD be designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water use - to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do. Thanks to all for the feedback ! Ralph JamesgangNC wrote: Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before a noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that it is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash your tail. As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a sb as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil. The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any more than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan and that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the oil? "Eisboch" wrote in message ... Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote: Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at: http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves. It ain't supposed to happen, but it can. Eisboch |
Ralph Modica wrote:
To All : Thanks for your quick responses. The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water did not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout. The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or may have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from the ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine or stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from just being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the BoatUS consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a design flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction of water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during the intake stroke. I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and Volvo. Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo. If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks like a design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm probably not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due to poor design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed correctly in the first place. We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ... I've had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy the "this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw. Boats are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To tell me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp loading areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer engineer .. if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats SHOULD be designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water use - to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do. Thanks to all for the feedback ! Ralph The water in the oil is most likely not from the manifolds... this would suggest a hydro-lock exposure... and would be a very unusual circumstance on the Volvo I/O(especially this new). The Mercruiser, for example, has a flapper in the leg to prevent power-off or reverse intrusion(although it commonly fatigues & fails - & owners run the boats in all kinds of conditions for years and never notice it has been gone for a long time) and the Volvo likely has a similar protection feature. Then, even if it does get past the leg, the risers are next. Unless the manifolds have been severely ravaged by exposure/corrosion, cylinder intrusion is unlikely in a properly operating running engine. Even then, the mechanic is suggesting that the water then got past the pistons & rings - highly improbable. The valve timing overlap is a non-issue - that engine is of a relatively mild tune - more like an RV cam grind for torque & low end grunt(under 5000 rpm power) not a radical street/strip shaft. The problem sounds like an intake manifold gasket, and it is not "normal". How much water do you think it was in the mix? This is a GM engine, but Volvo should be able to address the issue. The brand of boat would seem to be irrelevant. Get it fixed under warranty... I'm wondering if the mechanic or shop is trying to put off the job until he can be paid an off-warranty rate for the work. Rob |
I agree with Rob on this one, I doubt it from exhaust reversion while
running. The cam is just way too mild for that. Sometimes a lot of water getting back up the exhaust will leak past the rings into the oil but in that situation you have to have the engine off when the water enters the exhaust and stay off for a long time for the water to leak past the rings. Seldom happens on a trailer boat. You launch, you start the engine. Merc does have riser extenders for large boats where the engine is mounted close to the water line. I don't know about Volvo. I'd be looking for other sources like gaskets. Where are you located and how often was the boat used this summer? Was it properly winterized last winter? Have you drained the oil to determine the amount of water yet? The total amount of water is really going to be a useful clue. When you say water was found on the dipstick, you mean the white crud resulting from a water/oil mix? Remove the oil filler cap and look there too. Does it live outside on the trailer? Always stored with the bow high? As to fitness of purpose I'm guessing maybe this is your first boat? Boats are nothing like cars and they have a whole lot harder life that most things. Combine that with the fact that most boat builders are more like a cottage industry than a major manufacturer and you soon figure out why they call boats a hole in the water you pour money into :-) "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... To All : Thanks for your quick responses. The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water did not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout. The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or may have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from the ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine or stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from just being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the BoatUS consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a design flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction of water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during the intake stroke. I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and Volvo. Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo. If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks like a design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm probably not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due to poor design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed correctly in the first place. We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ... I've had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy the "this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw. Boats are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To tell me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp loading areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer engineer .. if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats SHOULD be designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water use - to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do. Thanks to all for the feedback ! Ralph JamesgangNC wrote: Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before a noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that it is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash your tail. As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a sb as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil. The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any more than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan and that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the oil? "Eisboch" wrote in message ... Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote: Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at: http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves. It ain't supposed to happen, but it can. Eisboch |
Risers are too short for the engine/hull configuration. You'll never get the
dealer to admit it, but check around with other owners of your hull/engine combo in your area and see who else has the same tbl. Best of luck Mike |
"rmcinnis" wrote in message ... "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" I have owned a wide variety of boats and I have never had water get into the engine. A very tiny amount of water in the oil is normal but NOT GOOD. A byproduct of combustion is water. You see it dripping out of the tailpipes of cars when they are cold and a fog when warmer. Some of this water gets by the rings and winds up in the engine. It's important that the engine get hot and stay hot for enough time to drive the water out of the oil. Now as to the amount, there should NEVER be a change in the color of the oil because of the water in it. If there is then you have a bad head gasket or a cracked block. It's common for head gaskets to leak thus the recommended stop leak in automotive cars. Since boats usually use raw water cooling you can't put stop leak in the cooling system. All you can do is tighten the head gaskets and hope it stops. IF not then new head gasket(s) are needed. |
Mike, I was on the fence about that one. Typically you experience hydrolock
symptoms at least some times with water coming back through the exhaust. If the boat was used as an overnighter that might increase the possibility. A lot of factors have to happen just right to get water through the exhaust and past the rings without the operator noticing it when they try to start the engine. Do you know if volvo makes riser extenders similar to the merc ones? Their manifolds look a lot like mercs. If that's the problem then the fix is fairly straight forward. Also makes the problem entirely Larson's, Volvo has not control over engine placement relative to the waterline beyond recomendations which I'm sure they make. Ralph, here's what the riser extenders look like for merc. You can see they are simply blocks with the correct passsages designed to go between the manifolds and the risers. They raise the exhaust riser for situations where the boat engine sits low in the hull. It keeps the riser far enough above the waterline to keep water from entering the exhaust while the engine is off. If I were at a dealer I'd be tempted to just put one agains a volvo riser to see if the pattern is the same. I know next to nothing about volvo so I don't know if they have their own riser extenders. Volvo has the advantage of being better engineered, merc has been around forever. Due to overwhelming numbers they have had to confront a lot of real world problems. http://www.perfprotech.com/Home/Tech...0manifolds.htm "CaptMP" wrote in message ... Risers are too short for the engine/hull configuration. You'll never get the dealer to admit it, but check around with other owners of your hull/engine combo in your area and see who else has the same tbl. Best of luck Mike |
"Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... To All : Thanks for your quick responses. I had another thought that you might want to consider. It's a boat, it leaks. Normally this water collects in the bilge until it gets high enough to activate the bilge pump and then the water level lowers some amount. Many boats have their bilge pump on a three position switch: On, Auto, and OFF. If left in the off position the water level can accumulate in the bilge. The amount that accumulates might not be a problem while operating on a fairly level keel. Then you reach the launch ramp. The steep incline while pulling out makes all the water run to the back. The three of four inches that had been distributed along most of the length is now concentrated in the engine compartment. It is possible for the water level to get high enough to cover the dipstick tube and thus water can enter the engine. You get to the top of the ramp, the boat levels out and the water spreads itself out again so you never get to see the water level in the engine compartment at its highest level. Just a thought..... Rod |
rmcinnis wrote:
"Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... To All : Thanks for your quick responses. I had another thought that you might want to consider. It's a boat, it leaks. Normally this water collects in the bilge until it gets high enough to activate the bilge pump and then the water level lowers some amount. Many boats have their bilge pump on a three position switch: On, Auto, and OFF. If left in the off position the water level can accumulate in the bilge. The amount that accumulates might not be a problem while operating on a fairly level keel. Then you reach the launch ramp. The steep incline while pulling out makes all the water run to the back. The three of four inches that had been distributed along most of the length is now concentrated in the engine compartment. It is possible for the water level to get high enough to cover the dipstick tube and thus water can enter the engine. You get to the top of the ramp, the boat levels out and the water spreads itself out again so you never get to see the water level in the engine compartment at its highest level. Just a thought..... Rod NO WAY without noticing! That would be so much weight in water to cause serious listing/swamping/trailering issues... Rob |
In article , Ralph Modica wrote: Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph It is NOT normal. Figure out why its happening and FIX IT before you end up buying an engine! -- -- Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do! http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING! http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME! http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind |
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