4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

On another thread, I asked about a 2 stroke vs. a 4 stroke for flats
fishing. Lots of "up on plane, get going .. stop .. do it again" etc. I run
in 18 inches of water or less most of the time.

One respondent brings up the theory that "four strokes can and do produce
better "thrust"". Is that theory correct?

In my original posting, I clearly needed/want hole shot..not better gas
mileage..more quiet..less pollution, or top end speed. Right now, in the
couple of groups in which I posted the original question...the vote is 27 to
3 votes in favor of 2 stokes over 4 strokes??????. If his theory is
correct...the 27 to 3 seems wrong for my particular needs. any comments are
much appreciated.. thanks

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Four strokes tend to have more low-end "grunt" and a smoother power curve.
Two strokes tend to have a more pronounced "powerband".

That said on a boat that's propped right - a 2-stroke gets into the
powerband on the hole shot.

My boat (running a VERY old 2-stroke) is propped to 5600 rpm WOT (don't mean
I run it there often) and my hole shot is "explosive" to say the least.

-W

"RG" wrote in message
...
On another thread, I asked about a 2 stroke vs. a 4 stroke for flats
fishing. Lots of "up on plane, get going .. stop .. do it again" etc. I
run
in 18 inches of water or less most of the time.

One respondent brings up the theory that "four strokes can and do produce
better "thrust"". Is that theory correct?

In my original posting, I clearly needed/want hole shot..not better gas
mileage..more quiet..less pollution, or top end speed. Right now, in the
couple of groups in which I posted the original question...the vote is 27
to
3 votes in favor of 2 stokes over 4 strokes??????. If his theory is
correct...the 27 to 3 seems wrong for my particular needs. any comments
are
much appreciated.. thanks

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

You want to do hole shots in 18" of water or less? You should choose the motor
with the cheapest prop and lower unit. :)

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

RG wrote:
On another thread, I asked about a 2 stroke vs. a 4 stroke for flats
fishing. Lots of "up on plane, get going .. stop .. do it again" etc. I run
in 18 inches of water or less most of the time.

One respondent brings up the theory that "four strokes can and do produce
better "thrust"". Is that theory correct?

In my original posting, I clearly needed/want hole shot..not better gas
mileage..more quiet..less pollution, or top end speed. Right now, in the
couple of groups in which I posted the original question...the vote is 27 to
3 votes in favor of 2 stokes over 4 strokes??????. If his theory is
correct...the 27 to 3 seems wrong for my particular needs. any comments are
much appreciated.. thanks



Not really the thrust is a function of the propeller & what type of
engine turns it. Propellers with lost of pitch to provide a high top
speed on a fast boat, need lots of low down torque to get them away
quickly from a standing start. What you really want is an engine with
the best low down torque & traditionally 4 strokes have been good at
this, however this is not the case with the new 4 stroke OBs.

It's true 4 strokes can produce good torque however in your hole shot
premises a 2 stroke can be just as good & sometimes better (more bangs
for a given number of prop turns). So the 2 strokes can produce good low
down torque which means they can bog less from a standing start, this is
usually put down to their weight advantage but.

The new 4 strokes are usually very high revving engines (sometimes
higher than the equivalent HP 2 stroke) which means they produce their
best torque quite high up the rev band, again contrary to the usual
comments.

For getting away quickly the 2 strokes are OK indeed that's probably
their only strong point, but for fuel economy, long service life, ease
of use, resale value etc the 4 stroke is the go.

You've been warned about the Evinrudes, stay well away for the next 5
yrs at least, indeed I'll predict they won't even exist in 5 yrs just as
I did Ficht & it only took 3 yrs for them to go:-).


K

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

For getting away quickly the 2 strokes are OK indeed that's probably
their only strong point, but for fuel economy, long service life,

Large 2 stroke OB's have demonstrated their ability to provide a long
reliable service life over several decades, large 4 stroke OB's have not.

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

/nods

I know of *many* two-stoke outboards that have several decades on individual
units.

If the 4 stroke outboards turn out anything like the 4 stroke motorcycle
engines. They won't have as long a service life.

-W

"-v-" wrote in message
...
For getting away quickly the 2 strokes are OK indeed that's probably
their only strong point, but for fuel economy, long service life,

Large 2 stroke OB's have demonstrated their ability to provide a long
reliable service life over several decades, large 4 stroke OB's have not.

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Clams Canino wrote:
/nods

I know of *many* two-stoke outboards that have several decades on individual
units.

If the 4 stroke outboards turn out anything like the 4 stroke motorcycle
engines. They won't have as long a service life.

-W

"-v-" wrote in message
...

For getting away quickly the 2 strokes are OK indeed that's probably
their only strong point, but for fuel economy, long service life,

Large 2 stroke OB's have demonstrated their ability to provide a long
reliable service life over several decades, large 4 stroke OB's have not.






Touche!!! Point taken from you both & begrudgingly accepted:-)


K

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

So...if you want to play with TC-3 oil, snort oil fumes, sacrifice
fuel mileage, and endure the noise for a superior hole shot, the 27 to
3 vote is probably right on target. You'll be much happier with the 2
stroke.

I don't get it, but different strokes for different folks.....

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at
My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at
Lee Yeaton's Bayguide










Everyone in the marine industry and most of its environmental critics are aware
that there are now at least four manufacturers of two-cycle outboards with DFI,
direct fuel injection: systems that put the fuel directly into the combustion
chamber after the intake and exhaust ports close. Such systems eliminate loss
of some of the incoming fuel charge out the exhaust ports along with the
scavenged products of combustion that occurs with carbureted or EFI manifold
injection systems. Nevertheless, conventional wisdom tells most of the critics
of the two-cycle engine that it will never be as clean as a four-cycle engine.
For this reason they would eventually advocate banning the two-cycle engine
from the waterways on environmental protection grounds.

There are even more manufacturers producing four-cycle outboards, including the
same manufacturers that make the DFI two-cycle engines. They must seemingly
follow down both roads for self preservation, as part of the outboard market is
definitely leaning in the four-cycle direction, driven that way by hype,
environmental concerns, and certain perceived advantages. We have already
considered the ramifications of the increased engine weight for the
four-cycles, the potential effect on boat trim, and the possible inability to
float the boat level when swamped, as required by federal regulations for
outboard boats less than 20-feet long. Then there is also the increased cost
and complexity involved with four-cycle power, to be offset by savings realized
in fuel consumed and elimination of smoke and oil slicks.

This may be the price of progress, they say. But, is it possible to "have your
cake and eat it, too?" Some recent tests run comparing 2002 model two-cycle DFI
outboards with four-cycle outboards of equal power rating, mounted on the same
boat, would seem to indicate such things are really possible. Comparison tests
of two brands of four-cycle 225-hp outboards were made with a current state-of
the-art DFI two-cycle 225. On identical 20'7" boats one four-cycle brand
produced a best mileage of 4.7 mpg at 27.7 mph while the two-cycle gave a best
4.5 mpg at 28.6 mph. Very close. But, the two-cycle had a top speed of 59.8 mph
against 52.4 mph for the four-cycle. At the same 52-mph speed the two-cycle
gave better mileage to the tune of 3.2 mpg to 2.7 mpg for the four-cycle. The
two-cycle produced better fuel mileage at every speed from 34 mph up and was
also better at trolling speeds of 4-7 mph.

When tested against the other 225-hp, four-cycle brand on identical 24' boats,
the DFI two-cycle again prevailed overall, delivering a matching best 3.15 mpg
at 32 mph. This outran the four-cycle 49.3 to 45.7 mph, getting better mileage
(2.58 mpg) at its top speed than the four-cycle (2.44 mpg) at its top speed. It
also produced far better mileage in the trolling speed range from 3.5-8 mph.

A third set of tests compared a 135-hp, two-cycle DFI outboard against a
130-hp, four-cycle outboard on identical 20' boats. The two-cycle delivered
4.25 mpg at 20.8 mph against a best 3.97 mpg at 20.4 mph for the four-cycle.
Best economy for the two-cycle was achieved at 27.9 mph: 4.45 mpg. It also
bested the four-cycle in the 3-8 mph trolling speed range and beat it in top
speed 43 mph/3.54 mpg to 37 mph/2.97 mpg.

"Bah, humbug!" you might say. But there are sound engineering internal
combustion engine principles for this surprising result. It is true that the
typical four-cycle engine may have an inherent advantage in fuel consumed per
horsepower. But not when the engine must be designed to produce very high
horsepower per cubic inch of displacement at high engine speeds, as it must to
achieve even the already heavier weight seen when compared to its two-cycle
competitor.

In order to achieve this high-power output, while firing only every other
revolution of the crankshaft, the camshaft valve timing must develop
considerable overlap between intake and exhaust valve openings and closings,
which means it begins to suffer some of the same raw fuel loss out the exhaust
problems as the carbureted or manifold injected two-cycle engine. It only has
manifold injection, so the fuel and air must mix in the manifold and enter
together past the intake valve into the combustion chamber while the exhaust
valve is still partly open. The result is Some loss in fuel economy.

Since the four-cycle engine has the same radical valve timing at low engine
speeds, it suffers even more when compared to the two-cycle DFI engine at
trolling speeds. The only way to fix this problem in the four-cycle engine is
to go to direct fuel injection into the combustion chamber after the valves
close, like the DFI two-cycle, or have a system providing variable valve timing
with engine speed, conservative timing at lower speed and radical timing at
higher speed. Such systems are now being developed for future automobile
engines. Such things would add complexity, cost and weight, to an already more
expensive and heavier product.

Then there is the factor of acceleration from idle to planing speed. On the 241
boat the 225-hp, two-cycle DFI went from zero to 150 feet in 7.06 seconds while
the four-cycle took 7.76 seconds. On the 20' boat the 135-hp, two-cycle DFI
went zero to 150 feet in 6.2 seconds while the four-cycle took 8.7 seconds for
the same distance. Acceleration from zero to 30 mph on the 20'7" boat for the
225-hp two-cycle DFI took 5.77 seconds compared to 10.7 seconds for the 225-hp
four cycle. This demonstrates the better low-end torque and fast-rising power
curve of the two-cycle, firing every revolution of the crankshaft. The
four-cycles are quieter at low engine speeds, but this advantage goes away at
the higher engine speeds.

So, the conclusions are that the state of the art two-cycle DFI outboard can
match or beat the four-cycle in fuel economy, top speed, and acceleration. What
about exhaust emissions, which brought on the whole move to four-cycle
outboards in the first place? These two-cycle engines can match or beat the
four-cycles there, as well. It matches pretty much with the fuel economy story.
The more fuel the engine consumes at a given boat speed, the more exhaust
emissions that come out the other end. With precise microprocessor control and
direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber after the ports close,
the two-cycle DFI can better the most stringent exhaust emission requirements
now proposed out to 2007. The four-cycle can do no better.

After more than five years of testing and field experience the 2002 two-cycle
DFI outboards have been developed to have quality durability, economy and
environmental friendliness to match or beat the four-cycles, and at lower
weight and cost. Both can exist and be successful in the marine market but no
one should sell the two-cycle engine short on its ability to survive and
prosper long into the future. It just has too many good things going for it.
You might even see it on some future stern drives.

Ralph Lambrecht is an engineer with more than 50 years of experience in the
marine industry and marine safety standards development.

Lambrecht, Ralph. 2002. “Two-stroke conventional wisdom.� Boat & Motor
Dealer. April. 34-37

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Gene Kearns wrote:

In my own limited experience, I traded two 2-stoke Yamahas for two
4-stroke Suzukis and, thus far, they have proved much quieter, easier
to crank, and more fuel efficient (at the speeds I use). Plus, I
don't have to screw around with that crappy 2-stroke oil or have to
breathe its noxious fumes in an unfavorable wind.

Personally, I'll take the 4-strokes any day..... but then, they fit
my usage pattern.


Though the 1990s and up until this year, we had a series of Merc
two-cycle outboards, 90, 115, 135 Opti, on different boats. Since each
had a decent-sized oil bottle (the 90 and 115 under the hood, so to
speak), messing with the oil was not a real annoyance. The 90 seemed to
spew out more of an oil smell and smoke at trolling speeds than the 115,
but the Opti was a good-neighbor engine...no visible smoke, no smell.

Our Yamaha 225 four-stroke idles much more quietly than any of the
Mercs, and it is one smooth-running engine. I see where Yamaha has
bounced its 250 HDPI up to 300 horse. I'm sure in a few years Yamaha
will have a 300 hp four stroke and at that point, I'll trade in the 225,
for the 75 additional horses. Maybe.

So far, I have no complaints about teh 225 Yamaha.


--
Email sent to is never read.

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

"K Smith" wrote in message
...
Clams Canino wrote:
/nods

I know of *many* two-stoke outboards that have several decades on
individual
units.

If the 4 stroke outboards turn out anything like the 4 stroke
motorcycle
engines. They won't have as long a service life.

-W

"-v-" wrote in message
...

For getting away quickly the 2 strokes are OK indeed that's
probably
their only strong point, but for fuel economy, long service life,

Large 2 stroke OB's have demonstrated their ability to provide a
long
reliable service life over several decades, large 4 stroke OB's have
not.






Touche!!! Point taken from you both & begrudgingly accepted:-)


K

You might want to check out the Bass and Walleye boats page to see if
they have any comparisons on line. And keep in mind that it won't be
long and you won't be able to buy (new anyway) any of those fine
carburated 2 strokes that have demonstrated reliability, only 4 strokes
or DFI. Now which of those have the best reliabilty. And I don't know
where you got the idea that 2 stroke MC engines were more durable than 4
strokes.

del cecchi

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
You want to do hole shots in 18" of water or less? You should choose the
motor
with the cheapest prop and lower unit. :)

Actually, 18 inches is at the "deep" end of my scale around here. I can get
the CSkiff up in 12 inches easily with the right setback and raised motor on
my little boat.

Today, on a beautiful 65 degree day.... my little 14 ft. Carolina Skiff and
I skimmed into about -9-" inches....yes, that is NINE inches..... of water
today. When I shut her down, however, I had so little water under the hull
that I had to pull the "big " ( 25 hp ) engine up and keep the trolling
motor in its holster. Luckily the wind was blowing the right way, and I
floated out in no time. Not smart, necessarily, but its mostly a sand; mud
( and occasional oyster reef ) bottom. Keeps my prop polished, too! The
tricky North Winds blew a foot or two of water out of our bays. Go Away
Northers!!!!!

That's the interesting thing with this newsgroup. A lot of people think 4
feet is shallow. Ha...the entire area of Galveston (TX ) Bay ( 525 square
miles-Third largest bay system in the U.S. ) averages less than 10 feet in
depth. Ask me how I know this.... ( I used to have a 27 foot Catalina
sailboat with a fixed keel).

Last summer, when I bought the new 25 hp Merc. for the CSkiff, the guy ( in
Illinois) simply could NOT believe that I wanted the motor set back and up
so high over the bottom of the hull. When I returned home to Houston, I had
to take it to North Shore Marine here to have it set up and back correctly.

Thanks for all of your comments, some of which are understanding and wise
and some simply incredulous.
I'm incredulous when someone asks about a depth finder that can read at 200
feet!!

Keep 'em coming. Ain't boating grand???

RichG

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 04:17:27 GMT, "RG"
wrote:

"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
You want to do hole shots in 18" of water or less? You should choose the
motor
with the cheapest prop and lower unit. :)

Actually, 18 inches is at the "deep" end of my scale around here. I can get
the CSkiff up in 12 inches easily with the right setback and raised motor on
my little boat.

Today, on a beautiful 65 degree day.... my little 14 ft. Carolina Skiff and
I skimmed into about -9-" inches....yes, that is NINE inches..... of water
today. When I shut her down, however, I had so little water under the hull
that I had to pull the "big " ( 25 hp ) engine up and keep the trolling
motor in its holster. Luckily the wind was blowing the right way, and I
floated out in no time. Not smart, necessarily, but its mostly a sand; mud
( and occasional oyster reef ) bottom. Keeps my prop polished, too! The
tricky North Winds blew a foot or two of water out of our bays. Go Away
Northers!!!!!

That's the interesting thing with this newsgroup. A lot of people think 4
feet is shallow. Ha...the entire area of Galveston (TX ) Bay ( 525 square
miles-Third largest bay system in the U.S. ) averages less than 10 feet in
depth. Ask me how I know this.... ( I used to have a 27 foot Catalina
sailboat with a fixed keel).

Last summer, when I bought the new 25 hp Merc. for the CSkiff, the guy ( in
Illinois) simply could NOT believe that I wanted the motor set back and up
so high over the bottom of the hull. When I returned home to Houston, I had
to take it to North Shore Marine here to have it set up and back correctly.

Thanks for all of your comments, some of which are understanding and wise
and some simply incredulous.
I'm incredulous when someone asks about a depth finder that can read at 200
feet!!

Keep 'em coming. Ain't boating grand???

RichG



Rich,
I've got no problem with your setup- sounds perfect for where
you run. I DON'T want to hear about 65°, however, as we never cleared
20° today!

20" inches of snow sit on my boat cover. I'll get to it, but first,
I've got to shovel the roof. Rain is forecast for Wednesday, and
that's a bad mix. :o(

Please don't tease the animals. :oþ
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from OT-wrecked.boats.noah.
....as you were. :o)

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Good thing it is mud. We run aluminum jetboats in rivers with rocks and
boulders. The true river sled, mine is a deeper version and draws 6-8" at
speed, vs the true sled at about 2" can ride a self cause wave over a dry
gravel bar. 0.190" aluminum bottom is nice.
Bill

"RG" wrote in message
...
"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
You want to do hole shots in 18" of water or less? You should choose
the
motor
with the cheapest prop and lower unit. :)

Actually, 18 inches is at the "deep" end of my scale around here. I can
get
the CSkiff up in 12 inches easily with the right setback and raised motor
on
my little boat.

Today, on a beautiful 65 degree day.... my little 14 ft. Carolina Skiff
and
I skimmed into about -9-" inches....yes, that is NINE inches..... of
water
today. When I shut her down, however, I had so little water under the hull
that I had to pull the "big " ( 25 hp ) engine up and keep the trolling
motor in its holster. Luckily the wind was blowing the right way, and I
floated out in no time. Not smart, necessarily, but its mostly a sand;
mud
( and occasional oyster reef ) bottom. Keeps my prop polished, too! The
tricky North Winds blew a foot or two of water out of our bays. Go Away
Northers!!!!!

That's the interesting thing with this newsgroup. A lot of people think 4
feet is shallow. Ha...the entire area of Galveston (TX ) Bay ( 525 square
miles-Third largest bay system in the U.S. ) averages less than 10 feet in
depth. Ask me how I know this.... ( I used to have a 27 foot Catalina
sailboat with a fixed keel).

Last summer, when I bought the new 25 hp Merc. for the CSkiff, the guy (
in
Illinois) simply could NOT believe that I wanted the motor set back and up
so high over the bottom of the hull. When I returned home to Houston, I
had
to take it to North Shore Marine here to have it set up and back
correctly.

Thanks for all of your comments, some of which are understanding and wise
and some simply incredulous.
I'm incredulous when someone asks about a depth finder that can read at
200
feet!!

Keep 'em coming. Ain't boating grand???

RichG

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Noah...20 degrees..Bah Humbug...Why do you think I moved from Chicago 23
years ago?? RG

Calif Bill, Yea, we have our version of your "sleds" see
www.flatsmasterboats.com . They say they run on spit. They are fiberglass,
though, which works around here just fine.
RG

"noah"
Rich,
I've got no problem with your setup- sounds perfect for where
you run. I DON'T want to hear about 65°, however, as we never cleared
20° today!

20" inches of snow sit on my boat cover. I'll get to it, but first,
I've got to shovel the roof. Rain is forecast for Wednesday, and
that's a bad mix. :o(

Please don't tease the animals. :oþ
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from OT-wrecked.boats.noah.
...as you were. :o)

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:33:31 +0000, F330 GT wrote:

So...if you want to play with TC-3 oil, snort oil fumes, sacrifice
fuel mileage, and endure the noise for a superior hole shot, the 27 to
3 vote is probably right on target. You'll be much happier with the 2
stroke.

I don't get it, but different strokes for different folks.....


Everyone in the marine industry and most of its environmental critics are aware
that there are now at least four manufacturers of two-cycle outboards with DFI,
direct fuel injection: systems that put the fuel directly into the combustion
chamber after the intake and exhaust ports close.

Some interesting data. But I'm confused. If the fuel is injected directly
into the combustion chamber (and I assume immediately burned), how does
the crankcase get lubricated? Is there oil in the "fuel" that's injected?
Why?

Now, you say a DFI 2-stroke has better emissions than a 4-stroke. I infer
that you're talking about a carburated 4-stroke - what about a DFI
4-stroke (like most 4-stroke motorbike engines are, I believe)? As long as
a 2-stoke burns oil, I can't see how it will do better, emission-wise,
than a comparable 4-stroke (ie carb-to-carb, DFI-to-DFI, etc).

And, again by experience: I have yet to see a 2-stroke outboard that
doesn't smoke like hell at idle. And I see a lot of outboards at launch
ramps, marinas, etc. Maybe nobody's buying these DFI outboards?

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Hi Rich,

Did you get a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke?

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA, USA
www.kiene.com







www.kiene.com

"RG" wrote in message
...
"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
You want to do hole shots in 18" of water or less? You should choose
the
motor
with the cheapest prop and lower unit. :)

Actually, 18 inches is at the "deep" end of my scale around here. I can
get
the CSkiff up in 12 inches easily with the right setback and raised motor
on
my little boat.

Today, on a beautiful 65 degree day.... my little 14 ft. Carolina Skiff
and
I skimmed into about -9-" inches....yes, that is NINE inches..... of
water
today. When I shut her down, however, I had so little water under the hull
that I had to pull the "big " ( 25 hp ) engine up and keep the trolling
motor in its holster. Luckily the wind was blowing the right way, and I
floated out in no time. Not smart, necessarily, but its mostly a sand;
mud
( and occasional oyster reef ) bottom. Keeps my prop polished, too! The
tricky North Winds blew a foot or two of water out of our bays. Go Away
Northers!!!!!

That's the interesting thing with this newsgroup. A lot of people think 4
feet is shallow. Ha...the entire area of Galveston (TX ) Bay ( 525 square
miles-Third largest bay system in the U.S. ) averages less than 10 feet in
depth. Ask me how I know this.... ( I used to have a 27 foot Catalina
sailboat with a fixed keel).

Last summer, when I bought the new 25 hp Merc. for the CSkiff, the guy (
in
Illinois) simply could NOT believe that I wanted the motor set back and up
so high over the bottom of the hull. When I returned home to Houston, I
had
to take it to North Shore Marine here to have it set up and back
correctly.

Thanks for all of your comments, some of which are understanding and wise
and some simply incredulous.
I'm incredulous when someone asks about a depth finder that can read at
200
feet!!

Keep 'em coming. Ain't boating grand???

RichG

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

I haven't got the new ( to me ) 1989 El Pescador -16 ft- back yet from the
builder. She had some hull "stress cracks" that I knew about when I bought
her. I brought her to the original builder to have the cracks fixed
correctly. She is back at Victoria El Pescador (www.elpescador.com in
Victoria TX, getting her bottom re-arranged properly!

It'll be a nearly new boat/motor/trailer when I get done. I'll take her to
the motor guy the same day I get the call that she is ready, though Victoria
is a two hour drive one way from North Houston. ( Nothing is close in
Texas).

I'm surely leaning towards the two stroke now that I've read all of the
messages.
RichG


"Bill Kiene" wrote in message
om...
Hi Rich,

Did you get a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke?

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA, USA
www.kiene.com







www.kiene.com

"RG" wrote in message
...
"CCred68046" wrote in message
...
You want to do hole shots in 18" of water or less? You should choose
the
motor
with the cheapest prop and lower unit. :)

Actually, 18 inches is at the "deep" end of my scale around here. I can
get
the CSkiff up in 12 inches easily with the right setback and raised
motor
on
my little boat.

Today, on a beautiful 65 degree day.... my little 14 ft. Carolina Skiff
and
I skimmed into about -9-" inches....yes, that is NINE inches..... of
water
today. When I shut her down, however, I had so little water under the
hull
that I had to pull the "big " ( 25 hp ) engine up and keep the trolling
motor in its holster. Luckily the wind was blowing the right way, and I
floated out in no time. Not smart, necessarily, but its mostly a sand;
mud
( and occasional oyster reef ) bottom. Keeps my prop polished, too! The
tricky North Winds blew a foot or two of water out of our bays. Go Away
Northers!!!!!

That's the interesting thing with this newsgroup. A lot of people think
4
feet is shallow. Ha...the entire area of Galveston (TX ) Bay ( 525
square
miles-Third largest bay system in the U.S. ) averages less than 10 feet
in
depth. Ask me how I know this.... ( I used to have a 27 foot Catalina
sailboat with a fixed keel).

Last summer, when I bought the new 25 hp Merc. for the CSkiff, the guy (
in
Illinois) simply could NOT believe that I wanted the motor set back and
up
so high over the bottom of the hull. When I returned home to Houston, I
had
to take it to North Shore Marine here to have it set up and back
correctly.

Thanks for all of your comments, some of which are understanding and
wise
and some simply incredulous.
I'm incredulous when someone asks about a depth finder that can read at
200
feet!!

Keep 'em coming. Ain't boating grand???

RichG

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Whoops ...Sorry Bill ... that was www.elpescadorboats.com if you wanted
to take a look at the unusual hull style. I'll bet they don't have any like
that in California!!!!

They no longer make the 16 footer.
RichG

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

del cecchi wrote:
"K Smith" wrote in message
...

Clams Canino wrote:

/nods

I know of *many* two-stoke outboards that have several decades on

individual

units.

If the 4 stroke outboards turn out anything like the 4 stroke

motorcycle

engines. They won't have as long a service life.

-W

"-v-" wrote in message
. com...


For getting away quickly the 2 strokes are OK indeed that's

probably

their only strong point, but for fuel economy, long service life,

Large 2 stroke OB's have demonstrated their ability to provide a

long

reliable service life over several decades, large 4 stroke OB's have

not.




Touche!!! Point taken from you both & begrudgingly accepted:-)


K


You might want to check out the Bass and Walleye boats page to see if
they have any comparisons on line. And keep in mind that it won't be
long and you won't be able to buy (new anyway) any of those fine
carburated 2 strokes that have demonstrated reliability, only 4 strokes
or DFI. Now which of those have the best reliabilty. And I don't know
where you got the idea that 2 stroke MC engines were more durable than 4
strokes.

del cecchi


Sadly true about not being "able" to get a simple carbed 2 stroke, but
like the cars in the 70s doom & gloom prevailed over the CA CARB regs
however in the end we have better cars, same will happen with 4 stroke
OBs I'd suggest. The DFIs were a passing thing that have done most of
their damage, save a few diehards like Bill, but they're dead & have
been from the beginning.

I do think Clams & V make a point though, it's still too early to say
for absolutely sure the 4 strokes will last as long as the old tech 2
strokes.


K

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

I didn't - I commented that 4 cycle MC engines were not that durable - at
least as compared to car engines. If the 4 cycle outboards run 'em like a
bike engine.....

-W

"del cecchi" wrote in message news:fUbBb.836

And I don't know
where you got the idea that 2 stroke MC engines were more durable than 4
strokes.

del cecchi

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Clams Canino wrote:
I didn't - I commented that 4 cycle MC engines were not that durable - at
least as compared to car engines. If the 4 cycle outboards run 'em like a
bike engine.....

No but running raw sea water through them is always a worry & 4 stokes
do inherently have more "bits".

The bigger 4 strokes are really sophisticated (valves, timing,
electronics) even by car engine standards & again given they sometimes
even exceed the 2 strokes' HP/ltr ratings, it is a point that over time
..........

I'm a 4 stroke devotee so I'm confident, however ...


K


-W

"del cecchi" wrote in message news:fUbBb.836


And I don't know
where you got the idea that 2 stroke MC engines were more durable than 4
strokes.

del cecchi

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:


In my own limited experience, I traded two 2-stoke Yamahas for two
4-stroke Suzukis and, thus far, they have proved much quieter, easier
to crank, and more fuel efficient (at the speeds I use). Plus, I
don't have to screw around with that crappy 2-stroke oil or have to
breathe its noxious fumes in an unfavorable wind.

Personally, I'll take the 4-strokes any day..... but then, they fit
my usage pattern.



Though the 1990s and up until this year, we had a series of Merc
two-cycle outboards, 90, 115, 135 Opti, on different boats. Since each
had a decent-sized oil bottle (the 90 and 115 under the hood, so to
speak), messing with the oil was not a real annoyance. The 90 seemed to
spew out more of an oil smell and smoke at trolling speeds than the 115,
but the Opti was a good-neighbor engine...no visible smoke, no smell.

Our Yamaha 225 four-stroke idles much more quietly than any of the
Mercs, and it is one smooth-running engine. I see where Yamaha has
bounced its 250 HDPI up to 300 horse. I'm sure in a few years Yamaha
will have a 300 hp four stroke and at that point, I'll trade in the 225,
for the 75 additional horses. Maybe.

So far, I have no complaints about teh 225 Yamaha.



This is a lie pure & simple, be very careful this person has never own
a boat & does not now.


K

Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-)




I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer for my



staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.


I need more staff because 2004 is a major election year and business
booked to date indicates we'll be drowning in work. We need to hire a
production coordinator, too. It has very little to do with the state of
the economy, other than using it as reason to defeat Republicrap
candidates.


I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer for my

staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.





We have first-class benefits, including a top-of-the-line health
insurance plan, a non-contributory defined-benefit pension plan, a 401k,
and a life insurance policy equal to annual salary. We contribute a
share of profits to the 401k on behalf of the employee. Our employees
pay $4.50 for generic prescriptions and $8.00 for non-generics, but
that's going up next year to $10 and $15. New employees get two weeks
vacation the first year, and that goes to three weeks the third year. In
addition, we have 12 paid holidays and we shut down from noon on
Christmas eve to the day after New Year's Day. We also provide 20 days
of paid sick leave a year. And we have an outside company administering
pre-tax flexible bennies for our employees.
Our fringe benefit package follows the trade union model, except, of
course, for the profit contributions to 401k's. Trade unions are
not-for-profit enterprises.
How do these compare to the bennies at your shop?

Paid? Every year? I call "bull****". With 3 weeks vacation, 12 paid
holidays, and 20 paid sick days that's 47 *paid* days off every year. Are
they hourly employees? For a "small business", that's the road to
bankruptcy.

Boy...and you had me going there for a minute.

Not quite so simple, though you are trying hard to make it so. Our
business is up because we're on the cusp of an election year. Our
business always goes up in a major election year.
You could say we're going to be doing very well in 2004 because Bush is
such a total failure.


The 20 paid sick days aren't part of the "paid" days off unless those
days are used. None of our people abuses sick leave. In fact, no one as
yet has even come close to using 20 sick days in one year. They're there
in case they're needed.


Oh, I forgot. We also provide everyone with LTD.

The company provides an insurance plan that pays 50% of an employe's
salary for Long Term Disability. Employes have the option of purchasing
an additional 16.66%, bringing their total to 66.66%. The basic benefit
maximum is $4,000 per month. With the buy up, the limit is increased to
$10,000 per month.



Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted);

I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything was
sold...every
cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near
full-retail, too.


He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a
syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a
solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him
great rates.



As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in my memory,
and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife), Kennedy,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and participated in
deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more important than who
was giving them blow jobs.

Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except Bush, and I
worked once for his father.



My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be hit by
a mild hurricane. No
one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk.
Preferably early in July.


We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold clear, a
broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any, either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

The PWC was won as
a prize in a raffle.



Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his office?
Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?"
Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two








"around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These were sold
as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run.
Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he wanted
it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my dad's
main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of
manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In those days,
workers at these places could fix anything.


Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner. But he still
called bumpers bumpers.
--



Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to entice him
into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat
dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the
*exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal county. He
also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred to them
as "jerry-built."


From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a
year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high percentage of *all*
outboards sold in his home state for those years.


This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to
right after
the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his warehouse, I found
wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949
Evinrude 8015
50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for
winning some
outboard stock utility or hydroplane race.

I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop as head
mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still
brand-new. I
have no idea who might own it now.



He also built
boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and
all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've
just been an occasional boat owner.


Besides, I worked off and on in the
boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm
knee-deep in boat heritage.


Oh,
and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it wasn't for
what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and came
back in body bags.


During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings
for the
Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use them on
smaller
landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole Evinrude
himself.
My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie star or
singer...I forgot which. Maybe both.



Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat under your
command? I have.


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in winter in
a 22'
boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the fuel. Got a
"fireboat" welcome in NYC.




Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow arine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60
mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe



Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard Wood to
Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway home it
started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE
electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was a large
popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught fire. I
pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my
license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA is still
there.

Sure was a pretty little car.


Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.


A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait, tackle

and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same reasons
-liner and then hull fractures.








Harry has claimed to have a 20 yrs his junior beautiful wife, he even put a fake pic of a beautiful woman on a website once claiming it was his "young bride", he may have a wife, although I doubt it, we don't like nor tolerate misogynists for long.

Needless to say he's made up many "dramatic" over the top stories over the years about this lie to feed his ego & pretend he's the centre of attention, but as with his boat claims & other crap, there's never once been even a shred of independently verifiable material.

After he stalked Madcow in real life, which was most frightening, I do suspect he's very very dangerous & that this "bride" story is his delusional appropriation of his, probably court ordered, treating psychotherapist as "wife" (it seems he was under lock & key for what?? over a year??? a sexual deviant maybe??), have a read of just a small part of his BS & make up your own mind, it's all about free choice:-)


1. She *is* my bride. There are no rules that determine the end of
"bride-hood." If I want to refer to her as my bride, I may.

2. As a professional writer, I know the rules of language and am entitled to
break them in exercise of my license.

3. I doubt many married women would object to their husbands lovingly
referring to them as brides. The connotations are pleasant.

4. She's 20 years younger than I am.



Naw. What happened was that I handled a couple of "political" consulting
jobs funded out of the DC area to help a few candidates and defeat a
couple of ballot issues. Through no fault of mine, we won each of the
races, so some of the deep pockets types based in the DC area think I
actually *know something* about the process. I was offered a contract
that requires my presence in DC quite frequently. My bride also was
offered a job up here that represented a significant professional career
move. So, we're "up here" much of the time and "down there" the rest of
it, except when we're "somewhere else." I've been back to Jax (well,
really south of Jax) five times since coming "up here" late last summer
and my bride just returned from a business trip there.

I swear this is true.


Here's a funny. My bride had to fly out to San Diego Wednesday and
hitched a ride on her company's corporate jet. They landed in Salina,
Kansas, which is due north of Wichita and Skippy's suburb of Derby.

So when she gets to San Diego, I get a call asking, "What the hell did
you do in Kansas...we didn't fly over one significant patch of
water...?"

Harry, you make over 500 posts a week to this group and you don't own
a boat?
And why are you so crabby?
Maybe these two factors are related?



One has to own something to use it? Hmmm. My bride drives off in her car
every day, but she doesn't own it.

I'm not crabby. You asked for advice I gave you some. I questioned your
wanting to take a very small boat out into high seas and suddenly you
turned sour. It's your pot; you are the one stewing in it.

No, it is the boat of a friend. It is a 24' ProLine center console with,
if I recall, a 225 hp Merc on it. It was a dark and stormy day in
January (1997) when we went out, but the sky cleared once we got out to
the Gulf Stream.


Bride and I caught and released:

1 white marlin
12-15 yellowtail snappers, maybe two pounds each. Pretty, pretty fish.
Assorted red snappers
1 amberjack
2 jack crevalle jacks
1 snook
Nondescript sharks

Did you spend a year as a line psychotherapist at a 650-bed state
hospital for forensic patients?
Did you spend a year as senior psychotherapist at a county facility for
substance abusers?
Did you spend two years as chief of therapy at a private, 200-bed
facility for the mentally and emotionally ill, at which approximately
half the patients were trying to beat drugs or alcohol?
Are you currently chief of therapy for a for a multi-practitioner
practice of some 825 patients, about a third of which are seeking help
for substance abuse problems?


Licensed psychotherapist
Screening as to character and background for each degree earned
On-going screening by faculty while in educational system
Interviews and screenings for required years of internships, plus, at the same
time, supervision by a licensed professional.
Close professional and personal supervision by a licensed therapist for two years
of employment before being allowed to apply for licensure
Licensure background check, submission of recommendations by licensed
practitioners
Four hour written examination on state laws
Five hour written examination on diagnosis, procedure and practice

My wife went through this before becoming licensed. Her final internship was as a
psychotherapist at a 600-bed high security state psychiatric hospital where, on a
daily basis, she was exposed to more danger than your average soldier.

My wife worked for a year as psychotherapist in a Florida 600-bed state
mental institution for forensic patients. She saw and treated numerous
sexual deviants who do a bit more than expose themselves. Such "treatment"
is part of being in the mental health professions.


You see, I'm a nautical psychotherapist, and for only $125 an hour,
until their health insurance runs out, I help Bayliner owners overcome their
feelings of boatable inadequacy.


She is a licensed, practicing
psychotherapist and often tells me I am the sanest person she sees each
day. Which can be taken any way one likes.


1. I'm married to a psychotherapist. Live-in therapy, dontcha know? And much of
Freud is passe.

My ex-wife surpassed the anti-Christ at least a decade ago.

They're not actually "free" moments. I go to boat dealers to round-up
Bayliner owners who are trying to find one who will take their own
version of flotsam and jetsam in on trade.


1. The address listed is not a home address. It is an office.

2. I have three phone numbers. The phone number listed is not one of
mine. It has never been one of mine. The phone number *did* belong to an
after-hours message recording hotline my wife maintained for her most
mentally disturbed patients. Some of these troubled souls were
court-ordered referrals. *Every* call to that phone number--every
call--was recorded AND because of the nature of the line, my wife had
the ability to alert the telephone company to trace the phone number of
every incoming call to that line, *even* if the person making the call
tried to block his number.

Why, you might ask? Because when you are dealing with suicidal people,
they'll liable to tell their therapist over the phone that they are
planning to take their life. If the therapist believes the threat is
real, she or he will want to dispatch emergency srvices and perhaps the
police.

In the years my wife has provided this pro bono service, she has never
received a threatening or abusive call from a mentally ill patient or
court-ordered referral. However, after the ranking Flaming Ass of this
newsgroup posted the hotline number in this newsgroup, she received a
number of abusive, foul-mouthed AND life-threatening calls. These were
mostly directed at me but, of course, I never received them BECAUSE
(duh!) the phone is not mine and I've never answered it.
Naturally, my wife alerted the authorities, with whom she works closely
because of her court-referred patients. The authorities are
investigating the callers and have involved both the FBI *and*
authorities in other states, including Florida, Georgia, California and
Texas. Working with the telephone company, the authorities have been
able to trace the origin of virtually every abusive call. And, of
course, they have the tape recordings of the abusive messages. Several
suspects have been identified. I really don't know what the outcome of
all this will be. We haven't had an update in several weeks, nor are
either of us here that interested in the sleazeballs that would make
such calls.


The phone number, of course, is "wired," so when the obnoxious calls came in
from the idiot rec.boaters, the numbers were easy enough to trace. The local
police handled a complaint, the local telco was involved and when it was
discovered the point of origin was out of state, the FBI got involved. At
least one of the idiots was caught and prosecuted. As far as I can tell, he
has not posted here again

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Lloyd Sumpter wrote:
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:33:31 +0000, F330 GT wrote:


So...if you want to play with TC-3 oil, snort oil fumes, sacrifice
fuel mileage, and endure the noise for a superior hole shot, the 27 to
3 vote is probably right on target. You'll be much happier with the 2
stroke.

I don't get it, but different strokes for different folks.....


Everyone in the marine industry and most of its environmental critics are aware
that there are now at least four manufacturers of two-cycle outboards with DFI,
direct fuel injection: systems that put the fuel directly into the combustion
chamber after the intake and exhaust ports close.


Some interesting data. But I'm confused. If the fuel is injected directly
into the combustion chamber (and I assume immediately burned), how does
the crankcase get lubricated?

By tiny amounts of oil being directly inject into it below (actually
through the bore at the piston's side) the piston, raw oil with no fuel
(some of the DFIs have an even tinier amount of oil mixed in the fuel
but this is just to lubricate the injection system/pump itself)

Is there oil in the "fuel" that's injected?
Why?

Save mentioned; no none to lubricate the engine itself.


Now, you say a DFI 2-stroke has better emissions than a 4-stroke. I infer
that you're talking about a carburated 4-stroke - what about a DFI
4-stroke (like most 4-stroke motorbike engines are, I believe)?

No the 4 strokes are mostly EFI not DFI. There are a couple of DFI 4
strokes, Mitsubishi has been playing with it & also Mercedes but so far
it's been shown not to be worth the extra trouble & causes new problems,
EPA & power wise.

As long as
a 2-stoke burns oil, I can't see how it will do better, emission-wise,
than a comparable 4-stroke (ie carb-to-carb, DFI-to-DFI, etc).

They only inject a tiny amount in the crankcase of the DFI, even less
with the latest consumer funded experiment called E-tech (ficht in
drag:-)) The "claim" (probably false yet again) that running hour for
running hour they'll use less oil that the 4 strokes (change intervals)

And, again by experience: I have yet to see a 2-stroke outboard that
doesn't smoke like hell at idle. And I see a lot of outboards at launch
ramps, marinas, etc. Maybe nobody's buying these DFI outboards?

No nobody who has made any sort of independent enquiries. They run very
lean mixtures at low revs to get through the EPA & so they heat the
pistons with abnormal combustion when lean, when the engine is returned
to "normal" mixtures & power is increased the pistons are hot enough to
provoke uncontrolled detonation & failure. OMC itself admitted to a 1 in
5 failure rate & none of the so called fixes including the latest, has
addressed the core issues. Their latest joke is stronger pistons!!! It'd
be funny were it not consumers paying for this BS.

Don't buy evinrude not ever, they're rude!!!

K

See remembered no Harry paste:-)


Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

Harry Krause wrote:

So far, I have no complaints about teh 225 Yamaha.


Hardly surprising seeing that you don't own one.

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

4 stroke produces more "thrust"????
 

"Clams Canino" wrote in message
news:GJsBb.488309$Tr4.1331134@attbi_s03...

I didn't - I commented that 4 cycle MC engines were not that durable -
at
least as compared to car engines. If the 4 cycle outboards run 'em
like a
bike engine.....

-W

"del cecchi" wrote in message news:fUbBb.836

And I don't know
where you got the idea that 2 stroke MC engines were more durable
than 4
strokes.

del cecchi


here is the quote. Sorry for misinterpreting and missing the reference
to automobiles. :-)

I know of *many* two-stoke outboards that have several decades on
individual
units.

If the 4 stroke outboards turn out anything like the 4 stroke
motorcycle
engines. They won't have as long a service life.