Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

From another list:

RULE 33(a) is amended to read as follows:

(a) A vessel of 12 meters or more in length shall be provided with a
whistle, a vessel of 20 meters or more in length shall be provided with
a bell in addition to a whistle, and a vessel of 100 meters or more in
length shall, in addition, be provided with a gong, the tone and sound
of which cannot be confused with that of the bell. The whistle, bell,
and gong shall comply with the specifications in Annex III to these
Regulations. The bell or gong or both may be replaced by other equipment
having the same respective sound characteristics, provided that manual
sounding of the required signals shall always be possible.

Please note that the bell is no longer required on a vessel 12 meters or
more but less than 20 meters in length.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules2003.htm
_______________________________________________

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

Yep! That's the argument I made with the surveyor a couple years ago..

Steve
s/v Good Intention

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

Looks like that revision was effective only as of Nov 2003.

Question now is what are the regs inward of COLREGS demarkations?
I think state or Army Corps regs govern. Local water smokies could catch us
on a technicality.

Len

--
Eliminate "ns" for email address.

Yep! That's the argument I made with the surveyor a couple years ago..

Steve
s/v Good Intention

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

The "Inland Rules" would govern. Since the Inland rules are trying to
mirror the International closely and considering the reasoning for the
change (vessel size), I would bet that once they create the inserts to
correct your rules book, you will find this applying to both
international and inland.

Len Krauss wrote:
Looks like that revision was effective only as of Nov 2003.

Question now is what are the regs inward of COLREGS demarkations?
I think state or Army Corps regs govern. Local water smokies could catch us
on a technicality.

Len

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

State regs will often replicate Fed, e.g. in Oregon the 'bell' is
called out as required equipment ala what COLREGS were (or are for a
little while longer :-)

(Note that at least in Oregon, no usage rules, just you need to have
one.)

Might take a while for states to catch up. So.......

-al-


On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:10:51 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:

The "Inland Rules" would govern. Since the Inland rules are trying to
mirror the International closely and considering the reasoning for the
change (vessel size), I would bet that once they create the inserts to
correct your rules book, you will find this applying to both
international and inland.

Len Krauss wrote:
Looks like that revision was effective only as of Nov 2003.

Question now is what are the regs inward of COLREGS demarkations?
I think state or Army Corps regs govern. Local water smokies could catch us
on a technicality.

Len

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Yep! That's the argument I made with the surveyor a couple years ago..

Steve
s/v Good Intention

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.

Doug
s/v Callista


The seem to think they have a responsibility to verify all the safety
equipment..

I even had one surveyor who insisted (strongly recommended) that I have MOB
gear aboard even though she knew I was a single hander.. Said the insurance
companies wanted info in boat safety equipment.

Yah! I agree. But I know that they poke their nose into everything but the
areas they should be looking, like spungy decks, etc.

For the last insurance survey I went so far as to remove the life raft since
it was past it's inspection date and I didn't want him to list it and that
fact.

Both of the last two surveyors I have had were recommended by my insurance
company, even though I was paying for the survey.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

I just wish there were some sort of standards for surveying. Each
surveyor seems to have their own personal issues they concentrate
on while glossing over or ignoring others. One surveyor listed a
number of "required items" which I complied with. A couple of
years later another surveyor listed "required items" that required
me to undo most of what the previous surveyor listed.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steve" wrote in message
...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.

Doug
s/v Callista


The seem to think they have a responsibility to verify all the safety
equipment..

I even had one surveyor who insisted (strongly recommended) that I have
MOB
gear aboard even though she knew I was a single hander.. Said the
insurance
companies wanted info in boat safety equipment.

Yah! I agree. But I know that they poke their nose into everything but the
areas they should be looking, like spungy decks, etc.

For the last insurance survey I went so far as to remove the life raft
since
it was past it's inspection date and I didn't want him to list it and that
fact.

Both of the last two surveyors I have had were recommended by my insurance
company, even though I was paying for the survey.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

Doug Dotson wrote:
I just wish there were some sort of standards for surveying ...

There are, only they are not widespread in the US. Almost all European and
many southern hemisphere countries have such regs. FWIW we sometimes see
Lloyd's specs in the US, but there is little indication that a _requirement_
for this will spread any time soon.


--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.


Why do you say that?

I have had several surveys done, and each time I had the option of a
"limited" survey focusing on a specific item or a "general" survey that
covered overall value, integrity and condition.

The insurance company is going to want the overall survey, and they will
want to know that the vessel has all the "recommended" safety equipment,
which is often over and above the required list. In order to provide such a
survey to the insurance company, the surveyor DOES have the business of
being in this kind of thing.

Rod McInnis

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

After perhaps 8 or so surveys over the years being both purchase
surveys (which are the expensive ones) and insurance surveys (
which are the cheaper ones), I've never had any surveyor mention
anything about the CG mandated equipment other than fire extinguishers
begin sufficuent and current. None of any of the surveyors checklists
contained anything about flares, signalling devices, PFDs, waste
management plan, oil discharge placard, waste discharge rules placard,
etc. Those items are left to the CG safety inspection or the courtesy
inspections conducted by the CG Aux. No insurance has had any
complaints other than sending me a form that I could indicate that
I complied or wil comply with the "required" items.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.


Why do you say that?

I have had several surveys done, and each time I had the option of a
"limited" survey focusing on a specific item or a "general" survey that
covered overall value, integrity and condition.

The insurance company is going to want the overall survey, and they will
want to know that the vessel has all the "recommended" safety equipment,
which is often over and above the required list. In order to provide such
a
survey to the insurance company, the surveyor DOES have the business of
being in this kind of thing.

Rod McInnis

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

Some of these surveyors, I believe, are on the insurance co. 'short list' or
referral list. I suspect that looking into all of the safety equipment gives
the surveyor a feel for the skippers attitude towards safety /condtion of
the vessel.

I usually make every effort to have all the gear laid out so he doesn't have
to waste any time on it.. Time saved while waiting for me to find a safety
item is time you could use to check for some truly significant items. Plus,
it just demonstrates my interest and concern about these matters.

The last surveyor I use is a semi retired merchant master and also served in
the USCG. I'm not afraid of what he might find on my boat, but when he ask
about a bell, I reminded him that my boat was under the required length
requiring a bell. I think the only reason he ask was because he normal does
larger and commercial vessels.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

x-no-archive:yes "Doug Dotson" wrote:

After perhaps 8 or so surveys over the years being both purchase
surveys (which are the expensive ones) and insurance surveys (
which are the cheaper ones), I've never had any surveyor mention
anything about the CG mandated equipment other than fire extinguishers
begin sufficuent and current. None of any of the surveyors checklists
contained anything about flares, signalling devices, PFDs, waste
management plan, oil discharge placard, waste discharge rules placard,
etc. Those items are left to the CG safety inspection or the courtesy
inspections conducted by the CG Aux. No insurance has had any
complaints other than sending me a form that I could indicate that
I complied or wil comply with the "required" items.

OTOH we've had 1 purchase survey and several insurance surveys and all
of them addressed all or most of those items. I thought that was the
norm.

I just got out the initial survey to look at it and on the last page
it addresses:

Minimum Inshore and Coastal Equipment
-horn and/or whistle (aboard)
-bell (none observed)
-PFDs - aboard all US CG approved including throwable type IV
-fire extinguishers - all mounted and show charge
-automatic fire suppression for engine room (none at that time, but
we've got one now)
-compass (Ritchie) and deviation table for compass (none observed)
-distress flares (aboard and correspond to CG regulations)
-anchors (listed the Danforth)
-gas vapor detector (none but we have one now)
-high bilge alarm (none)
-first aid kit (none observed but we have one now)
-bilge pumps - work
- EPIRB (none but we have one now)
-USCG No discharge sign (posted)
-Federal no dumping sign-posted (no garbage management plan was seen,
but we have one now)

Of course all the surveyors were from the same office. The
pre-purchase surveyor was the head guy in the office and we picked him
on the recommendation of several trusted friends and relatives as THE
surveyor in the area (the broker was unhappy but couldn't do anything
about it), and he lived up to his reputation. In fact when we
switched insurance companies, the new insurance company took his
pre-purchase survey without requiring another one. The other
surveyors from that office used the initial survey to check off that
we'd fixed the things that were mentioned as deficient in the first
survey.

We did have a CGX courtesy inspection, and Bob did not show them the
autoinflate PFDs that we wear when underway because they aren't
approved. He just showed them the regular life vests.


"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.


Why do you say that?

I have had several surveys done, and each time I had the option of a
"limited" survey focusing on a specific item or a "general" survey that
covered overall value, integrity and condition.

The insurance company is going to want the overall survey, and they will
want to know that the vessel has all the "recommended" safety equipment,
which is often over and above the required list. In order to provide such
a
survey to the insurance company, the surveyor DOES have the business of
being in this kind of thing.

Rod McInnis




grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

That's what irritates me about surveyors. There is no damm requirement for a
compass deviation card, or compass for that matter. Neither an EPIRB, an
anchor, a high bilge alarm, etc. However, if they put that on the survey the
insurance company is probably going to require you put them in within 30
days.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
x-no-archive:yes "Doug Dotson" wrote:

After perhaps 8 or so surveys over the years being both purchase
surveys (which are the expensive ones) and insurance surveys (
which are the cheaper ones), I've never had any surveyor mention
anything about the CG mandated equipment other than fire extinguishers
begin sufficuent and current. None of any of the surveyors checklists
contained anything about flares, signalling devices, PFDs, waste
management plan, oil discharge placard, waste discharge rules placard,
etc. Those items are left to the CG safety inspection or the courtesy
inspections conducted by the CG Aux. No insurance has had any
complaints other than sending me a form that I could indicate that
I complied or wil comply with the "required" items.

OTOH we've had 1 purchase survey and several insurance surveys and all
of them addressed all or most of those items. I thought that was the
norm.

I just got out the initial survey to look at it and on the last page
it addresses:

Minimum Inshore and Coastal Equipment
-horn and/or whistle (aboard)
-bell (none observed)
-PFDs - aboard all US CG approved including throwable type IV
-fire extinguishers - all mounted and show charge
-automatic fire suppression for engine room (none at that time, but
we've got one now)
-compass (Ritchie) and deviation table for compass (none observed)
-distress flares (aboard and correspond to CG regulations)
-anchors (listed the Danforth)
-gas vapor detector (none but we have one now)
-high bilge alarm (none)
-first aid kit (none observed but we have one now)
-bilge pumps - work
- EPIRB (none but we have one now)
-USCG No discharge sign (posted)
-Federal no dumping sign-posted (no garbage management plan was seen,
but we have one now)

Of course all the surveyors were from the same office. The
pre-purchase surveyor was the head guy in the office and we picked him
on the recommendation of several trusted friends and relatives as THE
surveyor in the area (the broker was unhappy but couldn't do anything
about it), and he lived up to his reputation. In fact when we
switched insurance companies, the new insurance company took his
pre-purchase survey without requiring another one. The other
surveyors from that office used the initial survey to check off that
we'd fixed the things that were mentioned as deficient in the first
survey.

We did have a CGX courtesy inspection, and Bob did not show them the
autoinflate PFDs that we wear when underway because they aren't
approved. He just showed them the regular life vests.


"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.


Why do you say that?

I have had several surveys done, and each time I had the option of a
"limited" survey focusing on a specific item or a "general" survey that
covered overall value, integrity and condition.

The insurance company is going to want the overall survey, and they
will
want to know that the vessel has all the "recommended" safety
equipment,
which is often over and above the required list. In order to provide
such
a
survey to the insurance company, the surveyor DOES have the business of
being in this kind of thing.

Rod McInnis




grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

x-no-archive:yes



"Keith" wrote:

That's what irritates me about surveyors. There is no damm requirement for a
compass deviation card, or compass for that matter. Neither an EPIRB, an
anchor, a high bilge alarm, etc. However, if they put that on the survey the
insurance company is probably going to require you put them in within 30
days.

It wasn't listed as a REQUIREMENT, just as for safety item. And we
still don't have a deviation card posted anywhere, although we did go
out and do one, and we have it somewhere. I don't think we have a
high bilge alarm either. Have never heard it in any case. And the
insurance company hasn't required them. We did get a discount for an
automatic fire extinguisher in the engine room.

It was, as I said, the last page of the survey - the items were
prioritized according to how serious the surveyor thought they were,
and some of the things we just haven't done - sometimes because Bob
disagreed with the surveyor on what the configuration should be. This
wasn't an insurance survey. We've not had a problem with being
required to do something within 30 days. Maybe that's because the
boat was and is in good shape and maintenance is ongoing. It isn't
just left to sit.


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
x-no-archive:yes "Doug Dotson" wrote:

After perhaps 8 or so surveys over the years being both purchase
surveys (which are the expensive ones) and insurance surveys (
which are the cheaper ones), I've never had any surveyor mention
anything about the CG mandated equipment other than fire extinguishers
begin sufficuent and current. None of any of the surveyors checklists
contained anything about flares, signalling devices, PFDs, waste
management plan, oil discharge placard, waste discharge rules placard,
etc. Those items are left to the CG safety inspection or the courtesy
inspections conducted by the CG Aux. No insurance has had any
complaints other than sending me a form that I could indicate that
I complied or wil comply with the "required" items.

OTOH we've had 1 purchase survey and several insurance surveys and all
of them addressed all or most of those items. I thought that was the
norm.

I just got out the initial survey to look at it and on the last page
it addresses:

Minimum Inshore and Coastal Equipment
-horn and/or whistle (aboard)
-bell (none observed)
-PFDs - aboard all US CG approved including throwable type IV
-fire extinguishers - all mounted and show charge
-automatic fire suppression for engine room (none at that time, but
we've got one now)
-compass (Ritchie) and deviation table for compass (none observed)
-distress flares (aboard and correspond to CG regulations)
-anchors (listed the Danforth)
-gas vapor detector (none but we have one now)
-high bilge alarm (none)
-first aid kit (none observed but we have one now)
-bilge pumps - work
- EPIRB (none but we have one now)
-USCG No discharge sign (posted)
-Federal no dumping sign-posted (no garbage management plan was seen,
but we have one now)

Of course all the surveyors were from the same office. The
pre-purchase surveyor was the head guy in the office and we picked him
on the recommendation of several trusted friends and relatives as THE
surveyor in the area (the broker was unhappy but couldn't do anything
about it), and he lived up to his reputation. In fact when we
switched insurance companies, the new insurance company took his
pre-purchase survey without requiring another one. The other
surveyors from that office used the initial survey to check off that
we'd fixed the things that were mentioned as deficient in the first
survey.

We did have a CGX courtesy inspection, and Bob did not show them the
autoinflate PFDs that we wear when underway because they aren't
approved. He just showed them the regular life vests.


"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.


Why do you say that?

I have had several surveys done, and each time I had the option of a
"limited" survey focusing on a specific item or a "general" survey that
covered overall value, integrity and condition.

The insurance company is going to want the overall survey, and they
will
want to know that the vessel has all the "recommended" safety
equipment,
which is often over and above the required list. In order to provide
such
a
survey to the insurance company, the surveyor DOES have the business of
being in this kind of thing.

Rod McInnis




grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html


grandma Rosalie

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

Well, you said that the survey said "minimum inshore and coastal equipment"
and you had these things missing. Assuming your surveyor meant what he said,
your insurance company would normally require you to fix, repair, or add
these things within 30 days. They didn't? You're lucky.

Mine put down something to the effect that my sight tubes on my diesel tanks
were vinyl tubing. He stated "while acceptable, they should be replaced with
polycarbonate tubes." Even though he said they were acceptable, since he put
it in that section of things that needed to be addressed, the insurance
company required me to change them. PITA. You just have to be careful to
make sure your surveyor puts things like that in a "suggestions" area
instead of "requirements" or "safety and operability" section unless they
really belong there.


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
x-no-archive:yes



"Keith" wrote:

That's what irritates me about surveyors. There is no damm requirement
for a
compass deviation card, or compass for that matter. Neither an EPIRB, an
anchor, a high bilge alarm, etc. However, if they put that on the survey
the
insurance company is probably going to require you put them in within 30
days.

It wasn't listed as a REQUIREMENT, just as for safety item. And we
still don't have a deviation card posted anywhere, although we did go
out and do one, and we have it somewhere. I don't think we have a
high bilge alarm either. Have never heard it in any case. And the
insurance company hasn't required them. We did get a discount for an
automatic fire extinguisher in the engine room.

It was, as I said, the last page of the survey - the items were
prioritized according to how serious the surveyor thought they were,
and some of the things we just haven't done - sometimes because Bob
disagreed with the surveyor on what the configuration should be. This
wasn't an insurance survey. We've not had a problem with being
required to do something within 30 days. Maybe that's because the
boat was and is in good shape and maintenance is ongoing. It isn't
just left to sit.


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
x-no-archive:yes "Doug Dotson" wrote:

After perhaps 8 or so surveys over the years being both purchase
surveys (which are the expensive ones) and insurance surveys (
which are the cheaper ones), I've never had any surveyor mention
anything about the CG mandated equipment other than fire extinguishers
begin sufficuent and current. None of any of the surveyors checklists
contained anything about flares, signalling devices, PFDs, waste
management plan, oil discharge placard, waste discharge rules placard,
etc. Those items are left to the CG safety inspection or the courtesy
inspections conducted by the CG Aux. No insurance has had any
complaints other than sending me a form that I could indicate that
I complied or wil comply with the "required" items.

OTOH we've had 1 purchase survey and several insurance surveys and all
of them addressed all or most of those items. I thought that was the
norm.

I just got out the initial survey to look at it and on the last page
it addresses:

Minimum Inshore and Coastal Equipment
-horn and/or whistle (aboard)
-bell (none observed)
-PFDs - aboard all US CG approved including throwable type IV
-fire extinguishers - all mounted and show charge
-automatic fire suppression for engine room (none at that time, but
we've got one now)
-compass (Ritchie) and deviation table for compass (none observed)
-distress flares (aboard and correspond to CG regulations)
-anchors (listed the Danforth)
-gas vapor detector (none but we have one now)
-high bilge alarm (none)
-first aid kit (none observed but we have one now)
-bilge pumps - work
- EPIRB (none but we have one now)
-USCG No discharge sign (posted)
-Federal no dumping sign-posted (no garbage management plan was seen,
but we have one now)

Of course all the surveyors were from the same office. The
pre-purchase surveyor was the head guy in the office and we picked him
on the recommendation of several trusted friends and relatives as THE
surveyor in the area (the broker was unhappy but couldn't do anything
about it), and he lived up to his reputation. In fact when we
switched insurance companies, the new insurance company took his
pre-purchase survey without requiring another one. The other
surveyors from that office used the initial survey to check off that
we'd fixed the things that were mentioned as deficient in the first
survey.

We did have a CGX courtesy inspection, and Bob did not show them the
autoinflate PFDs that we wear when underway because they aren't
approved. He just showed them the regular life vests.


"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
A surveyor has no business in this kind of thing.


Why do you say that?

I have had several surveys done, and each time I had the option of a
"limited" survey focusing on a specific item or a "general" survey
that
covered overall value, integrity and condition.

The insurance company is going to want the overall survey, and they
will
want to know that the vessel has all the "recommended" safety
equipment,
which is often over and above the required list. In order to
provide
such
a
survey to the insurance company, the surveyor DOES have the business
of
being in this kind of thing.

Rod McInnis




grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html


grandma Rosalie

Revised COLREGS bell requirements
 

I've had a couple NAMS members share their checklists, and what Rosalie
describes is what these guys look for. They also check the dates on the
flares.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
x-no-archive:yes "Doug Dotson" wrote:

After perhaps 8 or so surveys over the years being both purchase
surveys (which are the expensive ones) and insurance surveys (
which are the cheaper ones), I've never had any surveyor mention
anything about the CG mandated equipment other than fire extinguishers
begin sufficuent and current. None of any of the surveyors checklists
contained anything about flares, signalling devices, PFDs, waste
management plan, oil discharge placard, waste discharge rules placard,
etc. Those items are left to the CG safety inspection or the courtesy
inspections conducted by the CG Aux. No insurance has had any
complaints other than sending me a form that I could indicate that
I complied or wil comply with the "required" items.

OTOH we've had 1 purchase survey and several insurance surveys and all
of them addressed all or most of those items. I thought that was the
norm.

I just got out the initial survey to look at it and on the last page
it addresses:

Minimum Inshore and Coastal Equipment
-horn and/or whistle (aboard)
-bell (none observed)
-PFDs - aboard all US CG approved including throwable type IV
-fire extinguishers - all mounted and show charge
-automatic fire suppression for engine room (none at that time, but
we've got one now)
-compass (Ritchie) and deviation table for compass (none observed)
-distress flares (aboard and correspond to CG regulations)
-anchors (listed the Danforth)
-gas vapor detector (none but we have one now)
-high bilge alarm (none)
-first aid kit (none observed but we have one now)
-bilge pumps - work
- EPIRB (none but we have one now)
-USCG No discharge sign (posted)
-Federal no dumping sign-posted (no garbage management plan was seen,
but we have one now)

Of course all the surveyors were from the same office. The
pre-purchase surveyor was the head guy in the office and we picked him
on the recommendation of several trusted friends and relatives as THE
surveyor in the area (the broker was unhappy but couldn't do anything
about it), and he lived up to his reputation. In fact when we
switched insurance companies, the new insurance company took his
pre-purchase survey without requiring another one. The other
surveyors from that office used the initial survey to check off that
we'd fixed the things that were mentioned as deficient in the first
survey.

We did have a CGX courtesy inspection, and Bob did not show them the
autoinflate PFDs that we wear when underway because they aren't
approved. He just showed them the regular life vests.