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If I had the money, I’d sign up...
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If I had the money, I’d sign up...
Tim wrote:
You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html I would trust Branson and VG a lot more than SpaceX. |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:38:56 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html I would trust Branson and VG a lot more than SpaceX. === Perhaps, but who's offering the better ride? I'd want to orbit at least once - not likely to happen however. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
If I had the money, IÂ’d sign up...
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:38:56 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html I would trust Branson and VG a lot more than SpaceX. === Perhaps, but who's offering the better ride? I'd want to orbit at least once - not likely to happen however. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com Safer ride. |
If I had the money, I?d sign up...
On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 22:46:55 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:38:56 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html I would trust Branson and VG a lot more than SpaceX. === Perhaps, but who's offering the better ride? I'd want to orbit at least once - not likely to happen however. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com Safer ride. === I'm sure a quick parabolic arc to the edge of space would be exciting but for my money I'd want to orbit. |
If I had the money, I?d sign up...
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 10:37:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 22:46:55 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:38:56 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html I would trust Branson and VG a lot more than SpaceX. === Perhaps, but who's offering the better ride? I'd want to orbit at least once - not likely to happen however. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com Safer ride. === I'm sure a quick parabolic arc to the edge of space would be exciting but for my money I'd want to orbit. I'd be OK with a ride in the Vomit Comet. |
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On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 3:17:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html It's not the same thing, but back in the 90's I was into high power rocketry. During that time frame there were 3 guys that got together and built an amateur rocket that flew to the edge of space. It was a boosted dart, which means the bottom part was a big, fat rocket motor and the top was a skinny but heavy small rocket with no motor. When the lower stage burns out the upper stage drag separates and keeps going (from inertia) until gravity does its thing. They launched it in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada. It had a downward looking camera with a RF downlink for video and telemetry. It hit mach 3.something, and the dart traveled to a bit over 50 miles. I can't find it now, but there used to be a video showing the flight. You saw the earth fall away, and when it hit apogee (arced over), you saw the curvature of the earth and then tons of stars. Unfortunately, it came in ballistic and impacted a few miles downrange. Even with a backhoe, they only recovered a few bits. The story was it took them over a year to build it, and it cost one of the guys his marriage. |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
Its Me wrote:
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 3:17:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html It's not the same thing, but back in the 90's I was into high power rocketry. During that time frame there were 3 guys that got together and built an amateur rocket that flew to the edge of space. It was a boosted dart, which means the bottom part was a big, fat rocket motor and the top was a skinny but heavy small rocket with no motor. When the lower stage burns out the upper stage drag separates and keeps going (from inertia) until gravity does its thing. They launched it in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada. It had a downward looking camera with a RF downlink for video and telemetry. It hit mach 3.something, and the dart traveled to a bit over 50 miles. I can't find it now, but there used to be a video showing the flight. You saw the earth fall away, and when it hit apogee (arced over), you saw the curvature of the earth and then tons of stars. Unfortunately, it came in ballistic and impacted a few miles downrange. Even with a backhoe, they only recovered a few bits. The story was it took them over a year to build it, and it cost one of the guys his marriage. I always loved rockets. We built a bunch of aluminum tube rockets powered by zinc- sulfur. We used to fire them at the Albany, CA police range when no one was around. Probably go to jail these days for doing that. |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 12:19:15 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
Its Me wrote: On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 3:17:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html It's not the same thing, but back in the 90's I was into high power rocketry. During that time frame there were 3 guys that got together and built an amateur rocket that flew to the edge of space. It was a boosted dart, which means the bottom part was a big, fat rocket motor and the top was a skinny but heavy small rocket with no motor. When the lower stage burns out the upper stage drag separates and keeps going (from inertia) until gravity does its thing. They launched it in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada. It had a downward looking camera with a RF downlink for video and telemetry. It hit mach 3.something, and the dart traveled to a bit over 50 miles. I can't find it now, but there used to be a video showing the flight. You saw the earth fall away, and when it hit apogee (arced over), you saw the curvature of the earth and then tons of stars. Unfortunately, it came in ballistic and impacted a few miles downrange. Even with a backhoe, they only recovered a few bits. The story was it took them over a year to build it, and it cost one of the guys his marriage. I always loved rockets. We built a bunch of aluminum tube rockets powered by zinc- sulfur. We used to fire them at the Albany, CA police range when no one was around. Probably go to jail these days for doing that. Do a search for high power rocketry. You'd be amazed at what's available and what hobbyist are doing with it. To fly the big stuff you have to be a member of a rocketry association (NRA or Tripoli) and have your field registered with the FAA. Then you have to give them advance notice of when you're going to launch, and you are altitude limited depending on your geographic situation. At least that's how it worked when I was active. The biggest thing I built and flew was 6 inches in diameter, stood over 8 feet tall and weighed about 25 pounds. It used a cluster of 5 motors. The biggest cluster I flew in it had 4 times the power (specific impulse in newton-seconds) of a military Stinger shoulder-launched missile. It was good for a little over 8,000 feet. The propellant used is ammonium perchlorate. Basically the same stuff as the solid rocket boosters on the space shuttle. Expensive hobby. |
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On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:44:30 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote: it had 4 times the power (specific impulse in newton-seconds) of a military Stinger === Are you able to calculate that in advance using knowledge of the chemistry and rocket geometery, or do you do test firings on the ground? --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:44:30 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: it had 4 times the power (specific impulse in newton-seconds) of a military Stinger === Are you able to calculate that in advance using knowledge of the chemistry and rocket geometery, or do you do test firings on the ground? These are commercially produced motors. You can buy single use motors, or aluminum tubes and end caps, then buy the reload kits that have the propellant, O-rings, nozzles, etc for "building" the motor. They have been tested and are rated for their impulse, usually complete with graphs of how it is delivered (bell curve, big spike then slowly tapering off, etc..). The motors are sized by the letters of the alphabet. The Low power black powder Estes motors are 1/4 and 1/2-A, A, B, C. The fat ones were D motors. E and F are considered mid power. High power starts at G and up. Each letter is a doubling of impulse range in N/s, like 2-4, 4-8, 8-16, etc... Supposedly the Stinger was in the K range. My cluster was 1 L, 2 J's and 2 I's, putting it into the M range. Here's one source: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Cesaroni_Propellant_Kits/54mm_Motors |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:34:12 PM UTC-5, Its Me wrote:
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:44:30 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: it had 4 times the power (specific impulse in newton-seconds) of a military Stinger === Are you able to calculate that in advance using knowledge of the chemistry and rocket geometery, or do you do test firings on the ground? These are commercially produced motors. You can buy single use motors, or aluminum tubes and end caps, then buy the reload kits that have the propellant, O-rings, nozzles, etc for "building" the motor. They have been tested and are rated for their impulse, usually complete with graphs of how it is delivered (bell curve, big spike then slowly tapering off, etc..). The motors are sized by the letters of the alphabet. The Low power black powder Estes motors are 1/4 and 1/2-A, A, B, C. The fat ones were D motors. E and F are considered mid power. High power starts at G and up. Each letter is a doubling of impulse range in N/s, like 2-4, 4-8, 8-16, etc... Supposedly the Stinger was in the K range. My cluster was 1 L, 2 J's and 2 I's, putting it into the M range. Here's one source: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Cesaroni_Propellant_Kits/54mm_Motors Oh, and for a little while I got into building "experimental" motors. That basically consisted of mixing a prepared recipe of chemicals together and casting your own fuel grains. Then you cut them and drilled the center core out, and loaded them into the casing with a nozzle and O-rings. The science of making it work properly had already been worked out. It's funny, the propellant really isn't dangerous. It's some pretty nasty, poisonous stuff, but once cast and set, you can bang on it with a hammer and it's just rubbery. It's hard to light. It's just that once lit, it's hard to put out and it has it's own source of oxygen. Put it in a tube with the proper sized nozzle, and you have a motor. If the nozzle is too big, you have a blow torch. If the nozzle is too small, you have shrapnel. :) |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On 12/14/2018 1:34 PM, Its Me wrote:
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:44:30 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: it had 4 times the power (specific impulse in newton-seconds) of a military Stinger === Are you able to calculate that in advance using knowledge of the chemistry and rocket geometery, or do you do test firings on the ground? These are commercially produced motors. You can buy single use motors, or aluminum tubes and end caps, then buy the reload kits that have the propellant, O-rings, nozzles, etc for "building" the motor. They have been tested and are rated for their impulse, usually complete with graphs of how it is delivered (bell curve, big spike then slowly tapering off, etc..). The motors are sized by the letters of the alphabet. The Low power black powder Estes motors are 1/4 and 1/2-A, A, B, C. The fat ones were D motors. E and F are considered mid power. High power starts at G and up. Each letter is a doubling of impulse range in N/s, like 2-4, 4-8, 8-16, etc... Supposedly the Stinger was in the K range. My cluster was 1 L, 2 J's and 2 I's, putting it into the M range. Here's one source: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Cesaroni_Propellant_Kits/54mm_Motors That's cool. |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 10:48:01 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote: On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:34:12 PM UTC-5, Its Me wrote: On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:44:30 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: it had 4 times the power (specific impulse in newton-seconds) of a military Stinger === Are you able to calculate that in advance using knowledge of the chemistry and rocket geometery, or do you do test firings on the ground? These are commercially produced motors. You can buy single use motors, or aluminum tubes and end caps, then buy the reload kits that have the propellant, O-rings, nozzles, etc for "building" the motor. They have been tested and are rated for their impulse, usually complete with graphs of how it is delivered (bell curve, big spike then slowly tapering off, etc..). The motors are sized by the letters of the alphabet. The Low power black powder Estes motors are 1/4 and 1/2-A, A, B, C. The fat ones were D motors. E and F are considered mid power. High power starts at G and up. Each letter is a doubling of impulse range in N/s, like 2-4, 4-8, 8-16, etc... Supposedly the Stinger was in the K range. My cluster was 1 L, 2 J's and 2 I's, putting it into the M range. Here's one source: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Cesaroni_Propellant_Kits/54mm_Motors Oh, and for a little while I got into building "experimental" motors. That basically consisted of mixing a prepared recipe of chemicals together and casting your own fuel grains. Then you cut them and drilled the center core out, and loaded them into the casing with a nozzle and O-rings. The science of making it work properly had already been worked out. It's funny, the propellant really isn't dangerous. It's some pretty nasty, poisonous stuff, but once cast and set, you can bang on it with a hammer and it's just rubbery. It's hard to light. It's just that once lit, it's hard to put out and it has it's own source of oxygen. Put it in a tube with the proper sized nozzle, and you have a motor. If the nozzle is too big, you have a blow torch. If the nozzle is too small, you have shrapnel. :) === Interesting, thanks - learn something new every day. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:19:14 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Its Me wrote: On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 3:17:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html It's not the same thing, but back in the 90's I was into high power rocketry. During that time frame there were 3 guys that got together and built an amateur rocket that flew to the edge of space. It was a boosted dart, which means the bottom part was a big, fat rocket motor and the top was a skinny but heavy small rocket with no motor. When the lower stage burns out the upper stage drag separates and keeps going (from inertia) until gravity does its thing. They launched it in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada. It had a downward looking camera with a RF downlink for video and telemetry. It hit mach 3.something, and the dart traveled to a bit over 50 miles. I can't find it now, but there used to be a video showing the flight. You saw the earth fall away, and when it hit apogee (arced over), you saw the curvature of the earth and then tons of stars. Unfortunately, it came in ballistic and impacted a few miles downrange. Even with a backhoe, they only recovered a few bits. The story was it took them over a year to build it, and it cost one of the guys his marriage. I always loved rockets. We built a bunch of aluminum tube rockets powered by zinc- sulfur. We used to fire them at the Albany, CA police range when no one was around. Probably go to jail these days for doing that. I played with zinc sulfur rockets too. We started with Crossman cylinders in Bering Cigar tubes. You could really send one for a ride. Then we started using longer tubes. A Crossman cylinder is a pretty good fit an 3/4" copper pipe. Solder alone won't hold but if you shoot a few screws in there and use the solder for a seal it works ok. The trick is how far up you cut the "nozzle". Just make sure it is perfectly square or you will just make a pinwheel. We also played with fins but shooting them out of a long pipe gets them fairly well stabilized. The best solution is still a long stick out the back. ;-). The real trick is finding someone to sell you zinc powder. We got it from a plating shop until they would not sell it anymore. |
If I had the money, I’d sign up...
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 10:48:01 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote: On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:34:12 PM UTC-5, Its Me wrote: On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:44:30 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: it had 4 times the power (specific impulse in newton-seconds) of a military Stinger === Are you able to calculate that in advance using knowledge of the chemistry and rocket geometery, or do you do test firings on the ground? These are commercially produced motors. You can buy single use motors, or aluminum tubes and end caps, then buy the reload kits that have the propellant, O-rings, nozzles, etc for "building" the motor. They have been tested and are rated for their impulse, usually complete with graphs of how it is delivered (bell curve, big spike then slowly tapering off, etc..). The motors are sized by the letters of the alphabet. The Low power black powder Estes motors are 1/4 and 1/2-A, A, B, C. The fat ones were D motors. E and F are considered mid power. High power starts at G and up. Each letter is a doubling of impulse range in N/s, like 2-4, 4-8, 8-16, etc... Supposedly the Stinger was in the K range. My cluster was 1 L, 2 J's and 2 I's, putting it into the M range. Here's one source: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Cesaroni_Propellant_Kits/54mm_Motors Oh, and for a little while I got into building "experimental" motors. That basically consisted of mixing a prepared recipe of chemicals together and casting your own fuel grains. Then you cut them and drilled the center core out, and loaded them into the casing with a nozzle and O-rings. The science of making it work properly had already been worked out. It's funny, the propellant really isn't dangerous. It's some pretty nasty, poisonous stuff, but once cast and set, you can bang on it with a hammer and it's just rubbery. It's hard to light. It's just that once lit, it's hard to put out and it has it's own source of oxygen. Put it in a tube with the proper sized nozzle, and you have a motor. If the nozzle is too big, you have a blow torch. If the nozzle is too small, you have shrapnel. :) That was our process. We found a doweled cell in a destroyed building that use 1.5" galvanized pipe for the dowel and we chipped out an 8x8 block section 2 blocks high for our test stand. We had a couple zinc sulfur "bombs" that were totally contained. When we started playing with potassium chlorate, we blew a hole in our test stand. I doubt anyone would sell you that stuff now and if they did an ATF agent would be delivering it. |
If I had the money, IÂ’d sign up...
wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:19:14 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Its Me wrote: On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 3:17:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html It's not the same thing, but back in the 90's I was into high power rocketry. During that time frame there were 3 guys that got together and built an amateur rocket that flew to the edge of space. It was a boosted dart, which means the bottom part was a big, fat rocket motor and the top was a skinny but heavy small rocket with no motor. When the lower stage burns out the upper stage drag separates and keeps going (from inertia) until gravity does its thing. They launched it in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada. It had a downward looking camera with a RF downlink for video and telemetry. It hit mach 3.something, and the dart traveled to a bit over 50 miles. I can't find it now, but there used to be a video showing the flight. You saw the earth fall away, and when it hit apogee (arced over), you saw the curvature of the earth and then tons of stars. Unfortunately, it came in ballistic and impacted a few miles downrange. Even with a backhoe, they only recovered a few bits. The story was it took them over a year to build it, and it cost one of the guys his marriage. I always loved rockets. We built a bunch of aluminum tube rockets powered by zinc- sulfur. We used to fire them at the Albany, CA police range when no one was around. Probably go to jail these days for doing that. I played with zinc sulfur rockets too. We started with Crossman cylinders in Bering Cigar tubes. You could really send one for a ride. Then we started using longer tubes. A Crossman cylinder is a pretty good fit an 3/4" copper pipe. Solder alone won't hold but if you shoot a few screws in there and use the solder for a seal it works ok. The trick is how far up you cut the "nozzle". Just make sure it is perfectly square or you will just make a pinwheel. We also played with fins but shooting them out of a long pipe gets them fairly well stabilized. The best solution is still a long stick out the back. ;-). The real trick is finding someone to sell you zinc powder. We got it from a plating shop until they would not sell it anymore. Easier to get 60 years ago. We used aluminum tube from a TV antenna for a lot of them. Had a pair of pliers that had a great shape for necking down the tube up from the end. |
If I had the money, I?d sign up...
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 03:36:14 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:19:14 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Its Me wrote: On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 3:17:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote: You know civilian space travel is coming... https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/13/...-of-space.html It's not the same thing, but back in the 90's I was into high power rocketry. During that time frame there were 3 guys that got together and built an amateur rocket that flew to the edge of space. It was a boosted dart, which means the bottom part was a big, fat rocket motor and the top was a skinny but heavy small rocket with no motor. When the lower stage burns out the upper stage drag separates and keeps going (from inertia) until gravity does its thing. They launched it in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada. It had a downward looking camera with a RF downlink for video and telemetry. It hit mach 3.something, and the dart traveled to a bit over 50 miles. I can't find it now, but there used to be a video showing the flight. You saw the earth fall away, and when it hit apogee (arced over), you saw the curvature of the earth and then tons of stars. Unfortunately, it came in ballistic and impacted a few miles downrange. Even with a backhoe, they only recovered a few bits. The story was it took them over a year to build it, and it cost one of the guys his marriage. I always loved rockets. We built a bunch of aluminum tube rockets powered by zinc- sulfur. We used to fire them at the Albany, CA police range when no one was around. Probably go to jail these days for doing that. I played with zinc sulfur rockets too. We started with Crossman cylinders in Bering Cigar tubes. You could really send one for a ride. Then we started using longer tubes. A Crossman cylinder is a pretty good fit an 3/4" copper pipe. Solder alone won't hold but if you shoot a few screws in there and use the solder for a seal it works ok. The trick is how far up you cut the "nozzle". Just make sure it is perfectly square or you will just make a pinwheel. We also played with fins but shooting them out of a long pipe gets them fairly well stabilized. The best solution is still a long stick out the back. ;-). The real trick is finding someone to sell you zinc powder. We got it from a plating shop until they would not sell it anymore. Easier to get 60 years ago. We used aluminum tube from a TV antenna for a lot of them. Had a pair of pliers that had a great shape for necking down the tube up from the end. We tried the aluminum from cheap lawn chairs and it seemed to burn out It also had holes in most of it so the only good part was the brace under the chair and the legs. I never had any luck with trying to form the venturi. A CO2 cylinder was pretty much perfect and they were easy to come by. I also had lots of short copper tube scraps I picked up here and there. If you saw off the top dome, drill out or cut off the venturi end, space it in the copper tube with 16 or 18 copper wire 120 degrees apart it ends up being a very tight fit, Then sweat it in with solder and you got something. You can use the dome you cut off as the nose. Same trick. Another fuel that is almost as good as zinc/sulfur is sugar and Potassium Nitrate. It is a little scary caramelizing the mix in a gas oven but we never had it go up. At around 600 degrees it will pour like honey, just be sure to preheat your funnel and the rocket body first. That stuff goes up pretty good too and the ingredients are a lot easier to get. |
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