On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 15:32:36 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:20:02 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 12:36:11 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 12:02:26 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 10/5/17 11:36 AM, wrote:

BAO has just watched too many Dirty Harry movies. He also does not
understand that these are shaped charges that basically poke a hole in
something. It is not going to blast out several rooms.

I have also heard the range was more like 300 yards. When you look at
the ballistics of the 5.56 (.223) you see that out beyond around 300
yards the bullet starts dropping pretty fast. Unless he was shooting
tracers and walking the rounds in it is unlikely they would have been
that effective. I read one person saying 1000 yards and that would
have required holding 50-60 feet high.
This was a fat retired clerk, not Chris Kyle.



"Better to think first in terms of mid-range, in the 400- to 600-yard
ranges. For this type of shooting the .223 is ideal. In fact, there are
shooters doing outstanding work at 1,000 yards with the .223 cartridge.
But this is post-graduate stuff. For now let’s stay in the medium ranges."

http://tinyurl.com/y95ov8x2


The shooter likely wasn't targeting individuals, but, rather, just
shooting in tight bits of crowd. And I thought he had .308 rifles, too.
Range wasn't an issue.

You are talking about bench rest shooters (sighted in at the range
they are shooting at) and this guy was shooting off hand with a bump
stock. At 1000 yards those rounds would have been landing in the
parking lot if he did not use tracers or something to walk in the
fire.
At 300 yards he could shoot point blank and only be a foot or so off.

300 yards was the far target for qualifying with the rifle during basic training. Couldn't be a foot
off either!

... but you were not trying to control a rifle with a bump stock and
you were sighted in at 200, cranking in the necessary elevation for
300.

Somewhere way back there, I lost your point. The guy was shooting at a distance of about 300+ yards,
from a height of 100+ yards into a huge crowd. Are you saying he had to be a good shot? Or are you
saying he could be a mediocre shot while spraying rounds everywhere.

Personally, I think the latter is true.

My M-14 was zeroed for 100 yards in basic training. I applied the proper elevation to hit the 300
yard target.

Amen.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 16:50:53 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 15:32:36 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:20:02 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 12:36:11 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 12:02:26 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 10/5/17 11:36 AM, wrote:

BAO has just watched too many Dirty Harry movies. He also does not
understand that these are shaped charges that basically poke a hole in
something. It is not going to blast out several rooms.

I have also heard the range was more like 300 yards. When you look at
the ballistics of the 5.56 (.223) you see that out beyond around 300
yards the bullet starts dropping pretty fast. Unless he was shooting
tracers and walking the rounds in it is unlikely they would have been
that effective. I read one person saying 1000 yards and that would
have required holding 50-60 feet high.
This was a fat retired clerk, not Chris Kyle.



"Better to think first in terms of mid-range, in the 400- to 600-yard
ranges. For this type of shooting the .223 is ideal. In fact, there are
shooters doing outstanding work at 1,000 yards with the .223 cartridge.
But this is post-graduate stuff. For now let’s stay in the medium ranges."

http://tinyurl.com/y95ov8x2


The shooter likely wasn't targeting individuals, but, rather, just
shooting in tight bits of crowd. And I thought he had .308 rifles, too.
Range wasn't an issue.

You are talking about bench rest shooters (sighted in at the range
they are shooting at) and this guy was shooting off hand with a bump
stock. At 1000 yards those rounds would have been landing in the
parking lot if he did not use tracers or something to walk in the
fire.
At 300 yards he could shoot point blank and only be a foot or so off.

300 yards was the far target for qualifying with the rifle during basic training. Couldn't be a foot
off either!

... but you were not trying to control a rifle with a bump stock and
you were sighted in at 200, cranking in the necessary elevation for
300.

Somewhere way back there, I lost your point. The guy was shooting at a distance of about 300+ yards,
from a height of 100+ yards into a huge crowd. Are you saying he had to be a good shot? Or are you
saying he could be a mediocre shot while spraying rounds everywhere.

I was just debunking the 1000 yard story.
I agree this was just spray and pray. That is really all you can do
with a bump stock.

Personally, I think the latter is true.

My M-14 was zeroed for 100 yards in basic training. I applied the proper elevation to hit the 300
yard target.

Amen.

The army guys I knew said the zero for an M14 was 200, my bad. (I
asked when I got my M1A). We had 2 crusty old retired sargents working
for IBM in Ft Myers.

wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 09:54:16 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 06:40:33 -0500, Boating All Out wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 10:53:45 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

11:05 AMBoating All Out
Excerpt from
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/10/senators-
strategy-to-combat-gun-violence-get-small.html

"Leading the charge on Tuesday was South Dakota senator John
Thune, who said in an interview with NBC News that, given
the fact that there?s no way to stop a mass shooting from
happening in an ?open society,? citizens? best hope to avoid
being violently killed is to ? duck. ?I think people are
going to have to take steps in their own lives to take
precautions to protect themselves. And in situations like
that, you know, try to stay safe. As somebody said ? get
small.?

It was the most depressing Republican response to the
shooting until slightly later in the afternoon, when
Oklahoma senator James Inhofe (famous for holding up a
snowball to disprove climate change) pinned the
responsibility for Sunday night?s massacre on sanctuary
cities."

Hahahaha. What the hell is he talking about?
One round from a bazooka could have taken out the shooter.
The obvious solution is to legalize bazooka open-carry.
Then the crowd would have handled it.
The problem is the law prevents bazooka open-carry.
What are our politicians thinking?
...
What are they thinking? I believe they're not. Anyhow his statement makes about as much sense as blowing a shotgun in the air off your balcony...
I agree Biden was just being stupid and the "bazooka" thing is pretty
stupid too. They are not that accurate to start with, unless you are
talking about a modern laser guided anti tank weapon. Then there is
the collateral damage problem.
Look up M72 LAW. Replace the word "bazooka" with whatever
version of LAW is appropriate, and legalize them for open
carry. Biden is a hell of a lot closer to my reality than
that asshole Thune telling me to "get small."
Collateral damage?
Less than 58 dead concert goers I'd bet. One round just
close would take the perp out. Price of Freedom.
Get some Army/Marine LAWS trainers to train open carry
applicants down at the local range.
There would be no shortage of applicants. Open carry ticket
for LAWS and toting one at a concert - how cool is that?
What's not to like about it?
Better than carrying a tricked out boom box.

If we really thought this would be a thing, the answer would have been
SWAT snipers covering the buildings from other buildings. If Trump had
been there, the snipers would have been there. (ever since Dallas)
It would have stopped in about 20-30 seconds if there was anyone
qualified to shoot back at that guy.
Couple hundred rounds could land on the Presidential convoy
before then.
Besides, too expensive for widespread use. Full auto fire
raining down from high elevation has changed the game for
the Secret Service.
They might be considering LAWS teams for the Presidential
detail.
You "staying small?"


Effective range for a LAW is about 250 meters (with a *lot* of practice), and that's not shooting up
32 floors. I think I saw the range for the shooter in Vegas was about 600 yards.
BAO has just watched too many Dirty Harry movies. He also does not
understand that these are shaped charges that basically poke a hole in
something. It is not going to blast out several rooms.

I have also heard the range was more like 300 yards. When you look at
the ballistics of the 5.56 (.223) you see that out beyond around 300
yards the bullet starts dropping pretty fast. Unless he was shooting
tracers and walking the rounds in it is unlikely they would have been
that effective. I read one person saying 1000 yards and that would
have required holding 50-60 feet high.
This was a fat retired clerk, not Chris Kyle.

I would guess higher than that for a .223. A .338 Lapua is about 16
feet and a 6.5 Creedmoor is about 35 feet. I'm not sure how his
elevation factored into that. No doubt he was lobbing them into the crowd.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:09:26 -0400, wrote:

The army guys I knew said the zero for an M14 was 200, my bad. (I
asked when I got my M1A). We had 2 crusty old retired sargents working
for IBM in Ft Myers.

===

I kind of recall zeroing our M-14s at 25 yards which was also supposed
to be zero at 150 or 200, don't remember which. Mine was incredibly
accurate out to 300.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 3:50:55 PM UTC-5, John H wrote:


Somewhere way back there, I lost your point. The guy was shooting at a distance of about 300+ yards,
from a height of 100+ yards into a huge crowd. Are you saying he had to be a good shot? Or are you
saying he could be a mediocre shot while spraying rounds everywhere.

Personally, I think the latter is true.

Thats the point i was making. He didnt have to aim much. Really all he did was lob 'em in...

wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:09:26 -0400, wrote:

The army guys I knew said the zero for an M14 was 200, my bad. (I
asked when I got my M1A). We had 2 crusty old retired sargents working
for IBM in Ft Myers.

===

I kind of recall zeroing our M-14s at 25 yards which was also supposed
to be zero at 150 or 200, don't remember which. Mine was incredibly
accurate out to 300.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com



Basic we shot carbines at I think 50yards. Maybe a 100. Yearly
qualification was either 38 cal pistols at the local police range or m16 at
100yards at Hamilton AFB.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 22:12:50 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:09:26 -0400, wrote:

The army guys I knew said the zero for an M14 was 200, my bad. (I
asked when I got my M1A). We had 2 crusty old retired sargents working
for IBM in Ft Myers.

===

I kind of recall zeroing our M-14s at 25 yards which was also supposed
to be zero at 150 or 200, don't remember which. Mine was incredibly
accurate out to 300.


I did that out at Cecil Webb and using some surplus ammo with spanish
writing on it, 25 yards got me really close at 200 with a scope on
that funky GI one screw mount.
It is a good way to get on the paper at 200 anyway.
My problem was that my Soviet spotting scope was not good enough to
see my hits at 200 so I just shot a bunch and went down to see how I
did later. BTW I sucked. I hope we don't have a war ;-)
I was shooting at paper plates tho not a full sized military target.
I never got serious about it again and won't until I get a decent
scope mount. When I went back to 25 yards, the zero had moved.
I set up the iron sights at 25 and called it a day.
I really prefer training with my .45 and my .380. That is something I
might need in a serious social situation some day.
For fun, I want my Daly shooting at clay.

On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:28:59 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:09:26 -0400, wrote:

The army guys I knew said the zero for an M14 was 200, my bad. (I
asked when I got my M1A). We had 2 crusty old retired sargents working
for IBM in Ft Myers.

===

I kind of recall zeroing our M-14s at 25 yards which was also supposed
to be zero at 150 or 200, don't remember which. Mine was incredibly
accurate out to 300.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com



Basic we shot carbines at I think 50yards. Maybe a 100. Yearly
qualification was either 38 cal pistols at the local police range or m16 at
100yards at Hamilton AFB.

The only real qualification we did was with an M1, at 200 as I recall
but it was just a one week thing.
I did shoot .45s with my chief on the first ship I was on but it was
very unofficial. I did learn a lot tho. He was on the marksmanship
team for a while.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 22:12:50 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:09:26 -0400, wrote:

The army guys I knew said the zero for an M14 was 200, my bad. (I
asked when I got my M1A). We had 2 crusty old retired sargents working
for IBM in Ft Myers.

===

I kind of recall zeroing our M-14s at 25 yards which was also supposed
to be zero at 150 or 200, don't remember which. Mine was incredibly
accurate out to 300.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

The 25 yard distance is what we used also. Had to have a quarter-sized grouping. I'd thought the
battle site zero was for 100 yards center of mass. Anything further you aimed higher, anything
closer you aimed lower. I missed two targets during qualifying, both at 50 yards because I forgot to
aim at the bottom of the target instead of center mass. Still got my Expert badge though!

wrote:
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 03:28:59 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:09:26 -0400, wrote:

The army guys I knew said the zero for an M14 was 200, my bad. (I
asked when I got my M1A). We had 2 crusty old retired sargents working
for IBM in Ft Myers.

===

I kind of recall zeroing our M-14s at 25 yards which was also supposed
to be zero at 150 or 200, don't remember which. Mine was incredibly
accurate out to 300.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com



Basic we shot carbines at I think 50yards. Maybe a 100. Yearly
qualification was either 38 cal pistols at the local police range or m16 at
100yards at Hamilton AFB.

The only real qualification we did was with an M1, at 200 as I recall
but it was just a one week thing.
I did shoot .45s with my chief on the first ship I was on but it was
very unofficial. I did learn a lot tho. He was on the marksmanship
team for a while.



Our training was 2 days. One, indoor as was raining, dry fire and
instruction. 2 nd day range. That was in 6 weeks basic.