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Propane generator science fair project
I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about
propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. |
Propane generator science fair project
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 21:16:30 -0400,
wrote: On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 20:54:56 -0400, wrote: I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. === Great, thanks. I'll be in touch via EMAIL. It might be worthwhile to repeat that waveform analysis with a heavily inductive load. I say that from personal experience with the 8 KW Kohler genset on my old Bertram 33. That generator worked fine with all loads except the Heart Interface Inverter/Charger. The charger was heavily inductive as it approached full output and it would severely distort the sine wave to the point that the charger would cut back its' output, even though the load was theoretically well within the generator's rating. Of course that resulted in a vicious circle feeedback loop which was bad for all concerned. The inverter charger that I have now is supposed to be power factor corrected and has never caused any similar problem. I am not sure what I have that fits that bill. I suppose big motors or something may be fairly inductive. I did not notice any problems with my PCs, TVs etc. I did figure out the generator seems to be set up for 115/230 because it was pretty stable at that voltage but by the time it got to the kitchen fridge that ended up being more like 109 and it is slow starting. I know I drop about 2.5-3v in the feeder from the generator to the panel and that is my bad. There are probably some other losses in the system too. I used #10/3 Romex and I would have done better to use bigger wire. I have 50' of 6/4 SO cord that I used twice in 45 years as an extension cord for my welder. I may re purpose that, see what else I have in the shed or I may just buy new THHN #8 or 6. If I can just goose up the voltage a bit I doubt I will do anything. Henc gave me a variac before he left and I might just put that on the kitchen fridge. The one out in the tiki bar seems OK as does everything else. |
Propane generator science fair project
On 9/30/2017 8:54 PM, wrote:
I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. The "output" won't be less on propane but the efficiency is. Your pic makes me want to go track down the guy I lent my HP scope to. :-) |
Propane generator science fair project
On 9/30/2017 9:16 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 20:54:56 -0400, wrote: I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. === Great, thanks. I'll be in touch via EMAIL. It might be worthwhile to repeat that waveform analysis with a heavily inductive load. I say that from personal experience with the 8 KW Kohler genset on my old Bertram 33. That generator worked fine with all loads except the Heart Interface Inverter/Charger. The charger was heavily inductive as it approached full output and it would severely distort the sine wave to the point that the charger would cut back its' output, even though the load was theoretically well within the generator's rating. Of course that resulted in a vicious circle feeedback loop which was bad for all concerned. The inverter charger that I have now is supposed to be power factor corrected and has never caused any similar problem. I remember taking a course in power factor corrections intended more for people looking to become plant or facilities engineers at large manufacturing plants that used a lot of AC motor powered machinery. It's quite an involved science and the "real" power available is often not anywhere close to the "apparent" power without using big capacitors and inductors to correct the lag/lead. Now-a-days I can't even remember the right hand or left hand rule. :-) |
Propane generator science fair project
On 9/30/2017 9:40 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 21:16:30 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 20:54:56 -0400, wrote: I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. === Great, thanks. I'll be in touch via EMAIL. It might be worthwhile to repeat that waveform analysis with a heavily inductive load. I say that from personal experience with the 8 KW Kohler genset on my old Bertram 33. That generator worked fine with all loads except the Heart Interface Inverter/Charger. The charger was heavily inductive as it approached full output and it would severely distort the sine wave to the point that the charger would cut back its' output, even though the load was theoretically well within the generator's rating. Of course that resulted in a vicious circle feeedback loop which was bad for all concerned. The inverter charger that I have now is supposed to be power factor corrected and has never caused any similar problem. I am not sure what I have that fits that bill. I suppose big motors or something may be fairly inductive. I did not notice any problems with my PCs, TVs etc. I did figure out the generator seems to be set up for 115/230 because it was pretty stable at that voltage but by the time it got to the kitchen fridge that ended up being more like 109 and it is slow starting. I know I drop about 2.5-3v in the feeder from the generator to the panel and that is my bad. There are probably some other losses in the system too. I used #10/3 Romex and I would have done better to use bigger wire. I have 50' of 6/4 SO cord that I used twice in 45 years as an extension cord for my welder. I may re purpose that, see what else I have in the shed or I may just buy new THHN #8 or 6. If I can just goose up the voltage a bit I doubt I will do anything. Henc gave me a variac before he left and I might just put that on the kitchen fridge. The one out in the tiki bar seems OK as does everything else. Probably not an issue in your case but in large electrical usage facilities the growing use of switching power supplies for computers and other devices adds to power correction issues. The switching power supplies apparently look like an inductive load and when there are many of them, it becomes an issue. |
Propane generator science fair project
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 07:10:20 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 9/30/2017 9:16 PM, wrote: On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 20:54:56 -0400, wrote: I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. === Great, thanks. I'll be in touch via EMAIL. It might be worthwhile to repeat that waveform analysis with a heavily inductive load. I say that from personal experience with the 8 KW Kohler genset on my old Bertram 33. That generator worked fine with all loads except the Heart Interface Inverter/Charger. The charger was heavily inductive as it approached full output and it would severely distort the sine wave to the point that the charger would cut back its' output, even though the load was theoretically well within the generator's rating. Of course that resulted in a vicious circle feeedback loop which was bad for all concerned. The inverter charger that I have now is supposed to be power factor corrected and has never caused any similar problem. I remember taking a course in power factor corrections intended more for people looking to become plant or facilities engineers at large manufacturing plants that used a lot of AC motor powered machinery. It's quite an involved science and the "real" power available is often not anywhere close to the "apparent" power without using big capacitors and inductors to correct the lag/lead. Now-a-days I can't even remember the right hand or left hand rule. :-) === The one I remember is the phrase "ELI the ICE man" which means that voltage leads current in an inductive circuit, and current leads voltage in a capacitive circuit. At one time I knew how to do the vector calculation for degrees of lead or lag but I'd have to study up to do that now. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Propane generator science fair project
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 07:13:34 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 9/30/2017 9:40 PM, wrote: On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 21:16:30 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 20:54:56 -0400, wrote: I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. === Great, thanks. I'll be in touch via EMAIL. It might be worthwhile to repeat that waveform analysis with a heavily inductive load. I say that from personal experience with the 8 KW Kohler genset on my old Bertram 33. That generator worked fine with all loads except the Heart Interface Inverter/Charger. The charger was heavily inductive as it approached full output and it would severely distort the sine wave to the point that the charger would cut back its' output, even though the load was theoretically well within the generator's rating. Of course that resulted in a vicious circle feeedback loop which was bad for all concerned. The inverter charger that I have now is supposed to be power factor corrected and has never caused any similar problem. I am not sure what I have that fits that bill. I suppose big motors or something may be fairly inductive. I did not notice any problems with my PCs, TVs etc. I did figure out the generator seems to be set up for 115/230 because it was pretty stable at that voltage but by the time it got to the kitchen fridge that ended up being more like 109 and it is slow starting. I know I drop about 2.5-3v in the feeder from the generator to the panel and that is my bad. There are probably some other losses in the system too. I used #10/3 Romex and I would have done better to use bigger wire. I have 50' of 6/4 SO cord that I used twice in 45 years as an extension cord for my welder. I may re purpose that, see what else I have in the shed or I may just buy new THHN #8 or 6. If I can just goose up the voltage a bit I doubt I will do anything. Henc gave me a variac before he left and I might just put that on the kitchen fridge. The one out in the tiki bar seems OK as does everything else. Probably not an issue in your case but in large electrical usage facilities the growing use of switching power supplies for computers and other devices adds to power correction issues. The switching power supplies apparently look like an inductive load and when there are many of them, it becomes an issue. That usually shows up in modular cubical units with built in power strips. The connectors burn up. It is most pronounced when you have 3 phase wye service and the triplin harmonic gangs up on the neutral. It can also show up on 277v lighting circuits with solid state ballasts. Companies like AFC make "super neutral" cable to beef up that neutral conductor. IBM avoided most of these problems by not even bringing a neutral conductor into a computer room. They used that extra conductor as the "isolated ground" until some time in the late 70s when they figured out it was a waste of wire. Unfortunately the myth still survives today that IG is valuable or that IBM somehow required it. They still had a picture of an IG in the physical planning manual but if you actually read the text, there was not even a suggestion that people install it. I heard it explained that they just kept the picture there for people using 4 wire cable for single phase feeders since we still avoided using a neutral because of the harmonics issue. Most wiring was wire in pipe so you could just omit that extra wire. |
Propane generator science fair project
On 10/1/2017 10:36 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 07:10:20 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 9/30/2017 9:16 PM, wrote: On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 20:54:56 -0400, wrote: I dragged out Wayne's scope and a few meters to debunk a myth about propane. Someone was trying to tell me the output was less on propane than on gasoline. I will admit it uses about 50% more by volume but for the same output. I used my convection oven for a load and that ended up being 5403 watts or around 98% of the rated output of the generator, a pretty good test. The wave form ended up being pretty "siney" although not perfect and did not change with the fuel http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/Wave%20form.jpg The rest of the test looked the same too. http://gfretwell.com/propane%20project/On%20propane.jpg I have that scope ready to go any time you want to drive to Estero Wayne. For being 50 years old, it is still working pretty good. === Great, thanks. I'll be in touch via EMAIL. It might be worthwhile to repeat that waveform analysis with a heavily inductive load. I say that from personal experience with the 8 KW Kohler genset on my old Bertram 33. That generator worked fine with all loads except the Heart Interface Inverter/Charger. The charger was heavily inductive as it approached full output and it would severely distort the sine wave to the point that the charger would cut back its' output, even though the load was theoretically well within the generator's rating. Of course that resulted in a vicious circle feeedback loop which was bad for all concerned. The inverter charger that I have now is supposed to be power factor corrected and has never caused any similar problem. I remember taking a course in power factor corrections intended more for people looking to become plant or facilities engineers at large manufacturing plants that used a lot of AC motor powered machinery. It's quite an involved science and the "real" power available is often not anywhere close to the "apparent" power without using big capacitors and inductors to correct the lag/lead. Now-a-days I can't even remember the right hand or left hand rule. :-) === The one I remember is the phrase "ELI the ICE man" which means that voltage leads current in an inductive circuit, and current leads voltage in a capacitive circuit. At one time I knew how to do the vector calculation for degrees of lead or lag but I'd have to study up to do that now. Me too! :-} |
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