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Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008
Art Engel wrote:
Stefan wrote: says... o Rule 18 now applies in some circumstances when both boats tack around a mark. (the current rule states that if the proper course for either boat is to tack, rule 18 is out. The new rule says one but not both.) I think this needs to be read carefully, because at first read it appears to say more than it does. My initial take is that this change only makes a practical difference in a situation where two boats are on opposite tacks and the proper course for both of them is to tack. This would seem to be an odd occurrence (i.e. boats in different races that share a common mark). I welcome more discussion on this - I'm not sure I've read it correctly... Where there would be a change is where both boats are on starboard tack (at a leave-to-port windward mark) and neither boat can fetch the mark. Under RRS 2001-04 rule 18 cannot apply since both need to tack. Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 can apply since both must tack. This is an inconsequential change in my view. I don't follow your reasoning here. Since both boats are on starboard, they're not on opposite tacks. I don't see any changes to rule 18 at all that affect overlapped boats on the same tack. The reason for the change was a rare situation at leeward marks. Two boats enter the zone on port but the only proper courses for the next mark require both to tack immediately after passing the mark. Under RRS 2001-04 wording rule 18 wouldn't apply even though except for the tack after the mark it would be a typical rounding. Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 will apply since both boats must tack to sail a proper course. Again, you've lost me. Two boats enter the zone on port. What part of RRS2001 says that rule 18 doesn't apply? -- // Walt // // |
Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008
Walt wrote:
o Rule 18 now applies in some circumstances when both boats tack around a mark. (the current rule states that if the proper course for either boat is to tack, rule 18 is out. The new rule says one but not both.) I think this needs to be read carefully, because at first read it appears to say more than it does. My initial take is that this change only makes a practical difference in a situation where two boats are on opposite tacks and the proper course for both of them is to tack. This would seem to be an odd occurrence (i.e. boats in different races that share a common mark). I welcome more discussion on this - I'm not sure I've read it correctly... Where there would be a change is where both boats are on starboard tack (at a leave-to-port windward mark) and neither boat can fetch the mark. Under RRS 2001-04 rule 18 cannot apply since both need to tack. Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 can apply since both must tack. This is an inconsequential change in my view. I don't follow your reasoning here. Since both boats are on starboard, they're not on opposite tacks. I don't see any changes to rule 18 at all that affect overlapped boats on the same tack. The reason for the change was a rare situation at leeward marks. Two boats enter the zone on port but the only proper courses for the next mark require both to tack immediately after passing the mark. Under RRS 2001-04 wording rule 18 wouldn't apply even though except for the tack after the mark it would be a typical rounding. Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 will apply since both boats must tack to sail a proper course. Again, you've lost me. Two boats enter the zone on port. What part of RRS2001 says that rule 18 doesn't apply? I lost you because I wrote too quickly and was WRONG. The situation is relevant when boats are on OPPOSITE tacks, not the same tack (as you pointed out). Sorry for the confusion. The second clause of 18.1(b) is a bit obscure. The clause (when the *proper course* for one or both of them to round or pass the *mark* or *obstruction* is to tack) is intended to cover the situation where boats are on a leg to a reach mark and one boat has misjudged the mark (for example because of current) and must sail for a while on the other tack in order to round. As a result, that boat will be sailing in to the mark on starboard tack while the other boat is approaching the mark on port tack and will simply tack around the mark. Since the boats are not on a beat to windward, the first clause of 18.1(b) does not apply and without the second clause rule 18 would apply. See http://www.racingrules.org/misc/18-1(b)_2ndclause.gif The problem some folks (not me) saw in the 2001-04 rule occurred when two boats were coming in to a leeward mark (on OPPOSITE tacks) and the only proper course for both boats was to tack immediately after the mark. Since the proper course for both would be to tack rule 18 wouldn't apply between the boats at that leeward mark. NOT what was intended but a somewhat rare circumstance. [I will now point out the problem with the 2005-08 rule. If the boat that misjudged the reach mark then misjudges the layline and tacks short then both boats must tack (P once, S twice more) and rule 18 will apply between them. Not intended, but again a rare circumstance.] Art Engel e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net Web: http://www.racingrules.org |
Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008
Art Engel wrote:
o Rule 18 now applies in some circumstances when both boats tack around a mark. (the current rule states that if the proper course for either boat is to tack, rule 18 is out. The new rule says one but not both.) I think this needs to be read carefully, because at first read it appears to say more than it does. My initial take is that this change only makes a practical difference in a situation where two boats are on opposite tacks and the proper course for both of them is to tack. This would seem to be an odd occurrence (i.e. boats in different races that share a common mark). I welcome more discussion on this - I'm not sure I've read it correctly... Would this be a relevant situation? Windward mark to be rounded to port. Starboard tacker is short of the layline so both boats must tack. Port tacker approaches on collision course. Under RRS2001 rule 18 does not apply. Under RRS2005 it does. Personally I think the situation under RRS2001 is better because it is unclear which is the "inside" boat when close-hauled on opposite tacks. In your example, since the boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward rule 18 does not apply under either RRS 2001-04 or RRS 2005-08. No change. Where there would be a change is where both boats are on starboard tack (at a leave-to-port windward mark) and neither boat can fetch the mark. Under RRS 2001-04 rule 18 cannot apply since both need to tack. Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 can apply since both must tack. This is an inconsequential change in my view. The reason for the change was a rare situation at leeward marks. Two boats enter the zone on port but the only proper courses for the next mark require both to tack immediately after passing the mark. Under RRS 2001-04 wording rule 18 wouldn't apply even though except for the tack after the mark it would be a typical rounding. Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 will apply since both boats must tack to sail a proper course. In the two paragraphs above I refer to both boats on the same tack. That is WRONG - I should have said the boats were on opposite tacks. See my separate posting in answer to Walt. Art Engel e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net Web: http://www.racingrules.org |
Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008
Stefan Lloyd wrote:
o Rule 16.2 has been modified (again!) so that it only applies when a port boat is ducking a starboard boat. This would seem a major change. Consider port crossing a short distance ahead of starboard. Under RRS2001 starboard cannot start to pinch up to make life harder for port. Under RRS2005 they can. Given that the intention of the 1997 rewrite was to make collisions less likely, I don't understand this one. No change under RRS 2005-08. Under RRS 2001-04 S pinching enough so that P can no longer keep clear breaks rule 16.1. Since 16.1 won't change under RRS 2005-08 S will still break 16.1. If that is the case, why is 16.2 needed at all? Some (including me) are not convinced that it is needed. But here is the rationale. When P is crossing ahead of S and S changes course the only thing that P can do is crash-tack - that is not seamanlike so S broke 16.1 since P had no way to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. No need for 16.2 in that instance. When P is aiming to pass behind S and S changes course P can easily turn down more, a relatively seamanlike thing to do. Hence, some would argue that S does not break 16.1. 16.2 makes clear that S breaks a rule when she changes course and P must immediately respond. Art Engel e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net Web: http://www.racingrules.org |
Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008
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