1st boat help
 

I've been around boats for a long time because I've been on Dive boats
but have never owned a boat myself and have never really operated them
myself. I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina for the weekend (23 miles). I would
also like to go out and go diving with a few people. I don't plan on
staying on the boat for more than 1 or two nights. Being my first
boat, I would like to get a used one to help reduce the cost. My
thoughts are to get a 26-28ft with a cabin. First, am I crazy for
getting this size boat as my first one? Also, I was looking at the
Bayliner because the cost is a lot lower than others. The bad news is
that I see a lot of negative feedback for Bayliner boats. I'm looking
for a boat that is seaworthy, dependable, etc. but I don't need the
fancy interior stuff like teak, etc. Any recommendations would be
great. Please email mail in addition to posting on the newsgroup
). Thanks.

1st boat help
 

Our first boat was a 30 footer. Like you we had been around boats for a long
time but had never owned one.

We did a ton of research before buying, trying to sort out the "bayliner is
crap" sort of advice as well as determining what our needs were (sounds like
you've got the needs part figured out).

I read up a lot on hull design and learned the difference between open water
boats and protected bay boats. And looked around a lot to see what other
people were using and what they seemed to think.

As far as the Bayliner thing goes, there's a lot of Bayliners in my marina
and they seem perfectly fine. We're on the St. Lawrence/1000 Islands area so
none of us are dealing with the type of stuff you would need a Hatteras for.
But it all comes down to your intended use. I'm not familiar with the
boating area you mention so you'll want to see what the other guys are using
and ask them what they think.

Just my 2 bits.



"Diverguy" wrote in message
om...
I've been around boats for a long time because I've been on Dive boats
but have never owned a boat myself and have never really operated them
myself. I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina for the weekend (23 miles). I would
also like to go out and go diving with a few people. I don't plan on
staying on the boat for more than 1 or two nights. Being my first
boat, I would like to get a used one to help reduce the cost. My
thoughts are to get a 26-28ft with a cabin. First, am I crazy for
getting this size boat as my first one? Also, I was looking at the
Bayliner because the cost is a lot lower than others. The bad news is
that I see a lot of negative feedback for Bayliner boats. I'm looking
for a boat that is seaworthy, dependable, etc. but I don't need the
fancy interior stuff like teak, etc. Any recommendations would be
great. Please email mail in addition to posting on the newsgroup
). Thanks.

1st boat help
 

Paul, do you know if the state's pulling in the docks yet for the launches
at lakes like Black Lake? I'm salivating for one last trip up that way....

1st boat help
 

Gee I don't know sorry. I'm on the Canadian side, I'm guessing you're on the
'murican side?

I'd give my left arm for one more cruise too. The trees are supposed to be
spectacular down there right now.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Paul, do you know if the state's pulling in the docks yet for the launches
at lakes like Black Lake? I'm salivating for one last trip up that way....

1st boat help
 

Yeah...'murican, in Rochester. The twits are pulling the docks at some of
the Finger Lakes already. Nobody told them there's another month to bass
season, and that the pike and walleye are going friggin' bonkers. We can
still get our boats in the water, but it requires hip waders.

"Paul" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
Gee I don't know sorry. I'm on the Canadian side, I'm guessing you're on
the
'murican side?

I'd give my left arm for one more cruise too. The trees are supposed to be
spectacular down there right now.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Paul, do you know if the state's pulling in the docks yet for the
launches
at lakes like Black Lake? I'm salivating for one last trip up that
way....

1st boat help
 

Don't be afraid of a 28-footer as a"first boat." The learning curve for
handling a 28 footer isn't really any longer than for a 21 or 22 footer, and in
a lot of ways the greater mass of a larger boat helps promote stability.

The brand name of the boat you select will be less important than the design
characteristics. Bayliner probably builds both suitable and unsuitable boats
for your purpose....but if you're going to be somewhere under 30-feet size wise
you might want to consider boats that are designed for offshore sport fishing
conditions. In the NW, boats like C-Dory, Skagit Orca and a few other brands
would be worthy of investigation and consideration.

1st boat help
 

To avoid 2foot-itis, when I decided to buy a boat, I bought
the biggest boat I could trailer without getting ridiculous
(25'). Never regretted that move.
JR

Diverguy wrote:

I've been around boats for a long time because I've been on Dive boats
but have never owned a boat myself and have never really operated them
myself. I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina for the weekend (23 miles). I would
also like to go out and go diving with a few people. I don't plan on
staying on the boat for more than 1 or two nights. Being my first
boat, I would like to get a used one to help reduce the cost. My
thoughts are to get a 26-28ft with a cabin. First, am I crazy for
getting this size boat as my first one? Also, I was looking at the
Bayliner because the cost is a lot lower than others. The bad news is
that I see a lot of negative feedback for Bayliner boats. I'm looking
for a boat that is seaworthy, dependable, etc. but I don't need the
fancy interior stuff like teak, etc. Any recommendations would be
great. Please email mail in addition to posting on the newsgroup
). Thanks.

--
Remove X to reply

--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth

1st boat help
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Don't be afraid of a 28-footer as a"first boat." The learning curve for
handling a 28 footer isn't really any longer than for a 21 or 22 footer,
and in
a lot of ways the greater mass of a larger boat helps promote stability.

The brand name of the boat you select will be less important than the
design
characteristics. Bayliner probably builds both suitable and unsuitable
boats
for your purpose....but if you're going to be somewhere under 30-feet size
wise
you might want to consider boats that are designed for offshore sport
fishing
conditions. In the NW, boats like C-Dory, Skagit Orca and a few other
brands
would be worthy of investigation and consideration.



Check with the people on the All Coast Board. They fish and boat the area.
One of the guys has a 24' Sportcraft for sale. Never ridden on one, but do
like the lines.
http://www.allcoastsportfishing.com/...&conf=mainconf
Bill

1st boat help
 

Hi David,

This is not my area but I have been looking at ~25' boats with a cabin.

I think you need to consider what size you can tow unless you will keep in
on the water?

I would spend some time looking at new boats so you can learn something
about them. I would find a dealer near the area you are planning on boating
and talk to them about something new and used.

I would not get a boat over 10 years old and about 5 years old would be
great. If you are going out in the ocean, you need to learn a lot about
boating and have a boat that is in top shape.

One more thing is that a diesel motor is nice on a larger boat but will cost
more.

--
Bill Kiene

Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com

"Diverguy" wrote in message
om...

I've been around boats for a long time because I've been on Dive boats
but have never owned a boat myself and have never really operated them
myself. I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina for the weekend (23 miles). I would
also like to go out and go diving with a few people. I don't plan on
staying on the boat for more than 1 or two nights. Being my first
boat, I would like to get a used one to help reduce the cost. My
thoughts are to get a 26-28ft with a cabin. First, am I crazy for
getting this size boat as my first one? Also, I was looking at the
Bayliner because the cost is a lot lower than others. The bad news is
that I see a lot of negative feedback for Bayliner boats. I'm looking
for a boat that is seaworthy, dependable, etc. but I don't need the
fancy interior stuff like teak, etc. Any recommendations would be
great. Please email mail in addition to posting on the newsgroup
). Thanks.

1st boat help
 

"Bill Kiene" wrote in message
m...
Hi David,

This is not my area but I have been looking at ~25' boats with a cabin.

I think you need to consider what size you can tow unless you will keep in
on the water?

Good point. A fishing acquaintance of mine bought a 25' something, without
thinking of how he was going to trailer it. He has a 1999 Crown Victoria
with all the snazzy suspension upgrades, but still, not a car you'd want to
tow with every single weekend. He was about to trade it in for some pig of
an SUV like an Escalade or something, just to tow the boat.

Luckily, his wife slowed him down and reminded him that they only trailer it
about 6 times a year, to move it between lakefront houses owned by their
parents, on different lakes. It sits at those houses for 3-4 weeks at a
time. She called a couple of marinas and found they could get the boat towed
6 times for far less than the cost of putting gas into a fat SUV for three
months. And this didn't take into account driving the SUV around pointlessly
for the off-season.

It may seem like a minor point until you consider that the Crown Vic gets an
honest 24-26 mpg, and something like the Escalade gets 12 mpg on a flat
highway doing 65 mph with the wind behind it.

1st boat help
 

It seems to me you are looking for family comfort, a dive platform and
some nice amenities.

You should have a look at Formula boats. The 27' or the 31' will fit
your needs. I have a '91 26'PC. The boat is very well built, with
stainless fittings where most other manufacturers use plated or worse.
The hull is stronger, and won't break in heavy seas. (Bayliners have
been known to do that.) The entire boat is well thought out.
The swim platform is so well made, my wife and all our guests can climb
out on it!

http://www.formulaboats.com/


Capt. Frank

See attached website for a few pix. Go to the "boating link"

1st boat help
 

Dave,

You have quite a few needs for a first time boater. Some of those needs
like being easy to operate for a first timer, and something big enough
for 4 for a weekend, might be at odds with each other. Here is some
advice which might be helpful is resolving these conflicts.

First of all define the experience and character of the potential captain,
you. If you have had previous boat handling experience, and/or are
someone who can learn the skills of boat handling and adapt those
procedures fluidly, to changing conditions, you might be able to start off
with a larger boat. If you have had little experience and/or tend to panic
in stressful situations (such as docking in heavy winds), it may be
necessary to start off with a smaller boat that is easier to acquire the
fundamentals of boat handling, and is more forgiving of operator error.
Taking safe boating courses, and finding a friend with a larger boat who
will let you get experience docking their vessel could overcome these
shortcommings.

Next, define your personal needs. Within your family of four, define
"weekending on a boat". To some of us it means camping, or "roughing
it". If you family is the outdoor type and your kids are younger perhaps
a 19ft cuddy with a camper top will fit the bill. To some, weekending
means having ALL the ammenities of home aboard. In which case the 24ft
Aft cabin cruiser might be minimum. After you defined weekending,
determine what percentage of your boating will consist of weekending.
Once again, if youre only looking to do this a handful of times a year,
you might consider doing with less to few times to gain other advantages
(eg fuel economy, ease of use, ease of trailering, etc).

Determine where the boat will most likely be used. This will most likely
determine the size and perhaps the type of boat being used. As for the
size and type, I would take a 10' duck boat or bass boat out on Lake Erie
where I boat. Your conditions might just merit that larger boat. When
it comes down to brand, as someone else stated, seek advice from boaters
in the area. My only caveat would be to learn to separate knowledge from
bull****. If another boater can tell you specifically the pluses or
minuses of a given boat model, preferrably based upon person experience,
then I would be more likely to take what they say at face value.

As for which brand to buy... I tend to believe that all boats are somewhat
crap. Irrespective of the brand, I have yet to see a new boat that did
not exhibit some design flaw or quality control issues. When you are
talking about used boats, these issues can skew or level the playing field
of quality between brands. I for one would have no problem condsidering a
used Bayliner that was well cared for, over (insert favorite brand here)
that was abused. Conversely, if the usage was reversed the Bayliner MAY
not have faired as well as the popular boat. I honestly don't know.

As for Bayliners in particular, my personal experiences with them were
favorable on the great lakes. I have formed the opinion that in that area
of use, they are a value priced alternative, undeserving of alot of the
snide remarks seen here. As for salt water use, I cannot honestly say, so
find someone in the area you boat who can give you concrete information,
before you buy.

Do you really need a 24 footer? Or is a 24 footer big enough? Only you
can answer the question honestly. No matter what you decide, good luck
with your purchase and take the time to get acquainted with your needs as
well as the rules and customs of what I deem to be the most enjoyable
pursuits on earth.

I hope this helps

Bob Dimond






In article ,
(Diverguy) wrote:

I've been around boats for a long time because I've been on Dive boats
but have never owned a boat myself and have never really operated them
myself. I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina for the weekend (23 miles). I would
also like to go out and go diving with a few people. I don't plan on
staying on the boat for more than 1 or two nights. Being my first
boat, I would like to get a used one to help reduce the cost. My
thoughts are to get a 26-28ft with a cabin. First, am I crazy for
getting this size boat as my first one? Also, I was looking at the
Bayliner because the cost is a lot lower than others. The bad news is
that I see a lot of negative feedback for Bayliner boats. I'm looking
for a boat that is seaworthy, dependable, etc. but I don't need the
fancy interior stuff like teak, etc. Any recommendations would be
great. Please email mail in addition to posting on the newsgroup
). Thanks.

1st boat help
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Don't be afraid of a 28-footer as a"first boat." The learning curve for
handling a 28 footer isn't really any longer than for a 21 or 22 footer,
and in
a lot of ways the greater mass of a larger boat helps promote stability.

The brand name of the boat you select will be less important than the
design
characteristics. Bayliner probably builds both suitable and unsuitable
boats
for your purpose....but if you're going to be somewhere under 30-feet size
wise
you might want to consider boats that are designed for offshore sport
fishing
conditions. In the NW, boats like C-Dory, Skagit Orca and a few other
brands
would be worthy of investigation and consideration.



C-Dory is a nice boat but not offshore. The bottom is too flat causing a
rough ride and instability with a following sea. Been there, done that!
Gordon

1st boat help
 

C-Dory is a nice boat but not offshore. The bottom is too flat causing a
rough ride and instability with a following sea. Been there, done that!
Gordon



I'm doing a boat review on a 25' C-Dory next Monday. (Wanted to get something
done about a vessel suitable for blackmouth fishing, since in the magazine biz
it's already December). This will be my first experience actually underway on
one of these, although I did an article on the factory about two years ago.. It
seems we agree that they are "nice boats", hopefully there will be enough snot
to plow through next week that I'll be able to either agree or disagree with
your handling assessment. :-)

1st boat help
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
C-Dory is a nice boat but not offshore. The bottom is too flat causing
a
rough ride and instability with a following sea. Been there, done that!
Gordon



I'm doing a boat review on a 25' C-Dory next Monday. (Wanted to get
something
done about a vessel suitable for blackmouth fishing, since in the magazine
biz
it's already December). This will be my first experience actually underway
on
one of these, although I did an article on the factory about two years
ago.. It
seems we agree that they are "nice boats", hopefully there will be enough
snot
to plow through next week that I'll be able to either agree or disagree
with
your handling assessment. :-)



Mine was a 22 footer. Is the 25 the cat? Or do they something new? The
deadrise on the old 22 foot was shallow and the bottom was completely flat
on the pre 1986 ers. After all they are dories!
Also you mentioned offshore. I don't think you'll get into 7 foot swells
with 3 foot chop in Puget Sound as you commonly will going to and from
Swiftsure Bank out of Neah Bay in May.
Gordon

1st boat help
 

Also you mentioned offshore. I don't think you'll get into 7 foot swells
with 3 foot chop in Puget Sound as you commonly will going to and from
Swiftsure Bank out of Neah Bay in May.
Gordon

With any luck, we'll see the 2-3 foot chop. Swells aren't so bad- just up the
hill and down again. :-)

1st boat help
 

On 21 Oct 2003 10:59:20 -0700, Diverguy wrote:

I've been around boats for a long time because I've been on Dive boats
but have never owned a boat myself and have never really operated them
myself. I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina for the weekend (23 miles). I would
also like to go out and go diving with a few people. I don't plan on
staying on the boat for more than 1 or two nights. Being my first
boat, I would like to get a used one to help reduce the cost. My
thoughts are to get a 26-28ft with a cabin. First, am I crazy for
getting this size boat as my first one? Also, I was looking at the
Bayliner because the cost is a lot lower than others. The bad news is
that I see a lot of negative feedback for Bayliner boats. I'm looking
for a boat that is seaworthy, dependable, etc. but I don't need the
fancy interior stuff like teak, etc. Any recommendations would be
great. Please email mail in addition to posting on the newsgroup
). Thanks.

Just one additional consideration and my opinion only: if I were buying
anything upwards of 28', I'd spend the few extra dollars to make sure it
had twin engines. Besides the extra safety in emergencies, they can be far
easier to maneuver in rough weather in emergencies. While you will need to
spend a bit of time learning the handling characteristics, I think that
once learned, they are far easier to handle in tight quarters.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com

1st boat help
 

I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina

Didn't the Four Preps define that as
"a leaky old boat,
any old thain that will stay afloat"?
Of course that was the 60s ;-)

1st boat help
 

Personally, I think that a 28 foot stern drive, single motor boat is the
toughest "to control" boat out there. Anything larger, you'd almost have to
go with twin screws. Anything smaller, you could "man handle" your way
through some mistakes with the help of 2 deck mates. Just thinking about
backing into a tight slip on a windy fall day on a 28' single screw makes me
wince . . .

J


10/21/03 5:55 PM

Don't be afraid of a 28-footer as a"first boat." The learning curve for
handling a 28 footer isn't really any longer than for a 21 or 22 footer, and
in
a lot of ways the greater mass of a larger boat helps promote stability.

The brand name of the boat you select will be less important than the design
characteristics. Bayliner probably builds both suitable and unsuitable boats
for your purpose....but if you're going to be somewhere under 30-feet size
wise
you might want to consider boats that are designed for offshore sport fishing
conditions. In the NW, boats like C-Dory, Skagit Orca and a few other brands
would be worthy of investigation and consideration.

1st boat help
 

Wow,

That's great advice Bob! Where were you when we were looking for our first
boat??

As far as Bayliners in Sal****er is concerned. We boat in New England and
it's tough to find "old" bayliners around here. But . . . I have seen a few.
There is one fellow in our marina who bought his Bayliner brand new in 83'
and it still looks and runs great! He is however, an incredible mechanic and
does all the work on the boat himself. I think he will keep his boat another
20 years . . .

J




10/22/03 1:19 PM

Dave,

You have quite a few needs for a first time boater. Some of those needs
like being easy to operate for a first timer, and something big enough
for 4 for a weekend, might be at odds with each other. Here is some
advice which might be helpful is resolving these conflicts.

First of all define the experience and character of the potential captain,
you. If you have had previous boat handling experience, and/or are
someone who can learn the skills of boat handling and adapt those
procedures fluidly, to changing conditions, you might be able to start off
with a larger boat. If you have had little experience and/or tend to panic
in stressful situations (such as docking in heavy winds), it may be
necessary to start off with a smaller boat that is easier to acquire the
fundamentals of boat handling, and is more forgiving of operator error.
Taking safe boating courses, and finding a friend with a larger boat who
will let you get experience docking their vessel could overcome these
shortcommings.

Next, define your personal needs. Within your family of four, define
"weekending on a boat". To some of us it means camping, or "roughing
it". If you family is the outdoor type and your kids are younger perhaps
a 19ft cuddy with a camper top will fit the bill. To some, weekending
means having ALL the ammenities of home aboard. In which case the 24ft
Aft cabin cruiser might be minimum. After you defined weekending,
determine what percentage of your boating will consist of weekending.
Once again, if youre only looking to do this a handful of times a year,
you might consider doing with less to few times to gain other advantages
(eg fuel economy, ease of use, ease of trailering, etc).

Determine where the boat will most likely be used. This will most likely
determine the size and perhaps the type of boat being used. As for the
size and type, I would take a 10' duck boat or bass boat out on Lake Erie
where I boat. Your conditions might just merit that larger boat. When
it comes down to brand, as someone else stated, seek advice from boaters
in the area. My only caveat would be to learn to separate knowledge from
bull****. If another boater can tell you specifically the pluses or
minuses of a given boat model, preferrably based upon person experience,
then I would be more likely to take what they say at face value.

As for which brand to buy... I tend to believe that all boats are somewhat
crap. Irrespective of the brand, I have yet to see a new boat that did
not exhibit some design flaw or quality control issues. When you are
talking about used boats, these issues can skew or level the playing field
of quality between brands. I for one would have no problem condsidering a
used Bayliner that was well cared for, over (insert favorite brand here)
that was abused. Conversely, if the usage was reversed the Bayliner MAY
not have faired as well as the popular boat. I honestly don't know.

As for Bayliners in particular, my personal experiences with them were
favorable on the great lakes. I have formed the opinion that in that area
of use, they are a value priced alternative, undeserving of alot of the
snide remarks seen here. As for salt water use, I cannot honestly say, so
find someone in the area you boat who can give you concrete information,
before you buy.

Do you really need a 24 footer? Or is a 24 footer big enough? Only you
can answer the question honestly. No matter what you decide, good luck
with your purchase and take the time to get acquainted with your needs as
well as the rules and customs of what I deem to be the most enjoyable
pursuits on earth.

I hope this helps

Bob Dimond






In article ,
(Diverguy) wrote:

I've been around boats for a long time because I've been on Dive boats
but have never owned a boat myself and have never really operated them
myself. I would like to get a boat that my family of 4 can go out
from Orange County to Catalina for the weekend (23 miles). I would
also like to go out and go diving with a few people. I don't plan on
staying on the boat for more than 1 or two nights. Being my first
boat, I would like to get a used one to help reduce the cost. My
thoughts are to get a 26-28ft with a cabin. First, am I crazy for
getting this size boat as my first one? Also, I was looking at the
Bayliner because the cost is a lot lower than others. The bad news is
that I see a lot of negative feedback for Bayliner boats. I'm looking
for a boat that is seaworthy, dependable, etc. but I don't need the
fancy interior stuff like teak, etc. Any recommendations would be
great. Please email mail in addition to posting on the newsgroup
). Thanks.

1st boat help
 

Personally, I think that a 28 foot stern drive, single motor boat is the
toughest "to control" boat out there. Anything larger, you'd almost have to
go with twin screws. Anything smaller, you could "man handle" your way
through some mistakes with the help of 2 deck mates. Just thinking about
backing into a tight slip on a windy fall day on a 28' single screw makes me
wince . .

It's easy to see why you would be wincing.

I wouldn't "back" my 36-foot, single screw boat into a tight slip on a windy
day. Not without using a spring line. Unless there's some reason to be stern-to
at the central float, more single screw boaters approach the dock like most
sailors, bow first. A head-in docking is easily accomplished with a single
screw boat in any type of conditions one would ever consider venturing out in.
(Personal worst conditions
I have ever docked my single screw, non-bowthruster, vessel? Over 40-knots
sustained with gusts over 50. It wasn't pretty, but we made it work.)

When conditions are fairly benign, it's easy to back into a slip with a single.
If your two deck mates can't fend off a 28-footer, there is no reason to expect
a magical difference with a 23 or 24-footer.
Unless there's a *major* screwup underway, one person is usually enough to make
minor manual adjustments on vessels of 35-40 feet.

With a single screw boat, you *must* take
the natural environment into account. Wind and current conditions will have a
huge effect on docking, as does what I call the "inside/outside" factor.

If the wind or current is up, my experience
says that the best approach is upwind, or upstream. You can bring out a few
more horses to make headway, but once you're "sailing" downwind or downstream
you are fairly well out of control.

The inside/outside factor: There seems to be a correlation between tight berths
and small fairways. Where you find one, you often encounter the other. When
making a turn from the fairway into a slip, try to approach from the angle that
will allow the side of the boat that needs to be next to the finger float to be
on the "outside" edge of the turn. IOW, turn to starboard to put the port side
against the pier, and turn to port to dock the starboard side. You want to have
fits? Just try to dock the "inside" edge. It can be done, but it's about three
times as difficult and why mess with it?

Then again there are times when the inside/outside factor and the wind or
current are contradictory. But not all that often...and if the wind or current
is extreme
that is the dominant variable IMO.

(I've pulled into guest moorage at marinas
and had twin screw boaters ask, "Why did you go past the slip and then do a 180
in the fairway and come at it from the other
side?" .....If you can solve the problem with
horsepower you don't learn to solve it with
strategy.)

The major difference between handling a single screw and twin screws is that
with a single you must plan a little more carefully and "think" your way to the
dock before you make your approach. Twin screws, you just sort of drive like a
bulldozer. :-)

1st boat help
 

Thanks for the kind words, J.


In article , JML
wrote:

Wow,

That's great advice Bob! Where were you when we were looking for our first
boat??

As far as Bayliners in Sal****er is concerned. We boat in New England and
it's tough to find "old" bayliners around here. But . . . I have seen a few.
There is one fellow in our marina who bought his Bayliner brand new in 83'
and it still looks and runs great! He is however, an incredible mechanic and
does all the work on the boat himself. I think he will keep his boat another
20 years . . .

J