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It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun
than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. “Firearm-related fatalities exceeded motor vehicle fatalities in 17 states and the District of Columbia in 2013,” VPC’s report said, citing the most recent federal data. “That year, gun deaths (including gun suicide, homicide, and fatal unintentional shootings) outpaced motor vehicle deaths in Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, District of Columbia, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming.” In those 17 states, there were 12,730 gun deaths, compared to 11,256 car-related fatalities. The states with the most gun deaths were Alaska, Louisiana, Wyoming, Tennessee and Missouri, where the death rate was 50 percent higher—or more—than the national average of 10.64 gun deaths per 100,000 people. The reason why guns are killing more people than cars in these states is due to two simultaneous trends. The first is gun nuts have undermined sensible government efforts to require life-saving controls, the study said, such as features that prevent guns from mistakenly firing to limiting firearm accesss to people with violent histories. The second trend is that manufacturers have militarized the domestic market in recent years with semi-automatic features that were never on traditional sporting and hunting arms. “Firearms remain the last consumer product manufactured in the United States not subject to federal health and safety regulation,” VPN said, whereas cars have been subject to safety requirements for decades—such as installing seat belts, head rests, energy-absorbing steering wheels, shatter-proof windows, as roadway features have become safter and penalities for driving while intoxicated have increased. “As Dr. David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, notes in his 2004 book Private Guns, Public Health: “[T]he time Americans spend using their cars is orders of magnitudes greater than the time spent using their guns,” VPN said. “More than 90 percent of American households own a car, while a little less than a third of American households contain a gun.” The report contrasts how car makers have taken steps to prevent injury and death, while gun makers and gun lobbyists have fought off many sensible safety regulations. “We have lots of safety regulations concerning the manufacture of motor vehicles; there are virtually no safety regulations for domestic firearms manufacture,” VPN said. “And as is the case with motor vehicles, health and safety regulation could reduce deaths and injuries associated with firearms.” It continued, “Comprehensive regulation of the firearms industry and its products could include: minimum safety standards (i.e., specific design standards and the requirement of safety devices); bans on certain types of firearms such as “junk guns” and military-style assault weapons; limits on firepower; restrictions on gun possession by those convicted of a violent misdemeanor; expanded prohibitions on possession by persons with a history of domestic violence and better enforcement of existing prohibitions; heightened restrictions on the carrying of loaded guns in public; more detailed and timely data collection on gun production, sales, use in crime, as well as involvement in injury and death; and, public education about the extreme risks associated with exposure to firearms.” Moreover, the U.S. gun industry has militarized the civilian market, where increasingly lethal semiautomatic firing pistols and rifles have become the top-selling products. That trrend is documented in gun-control expert Tom Diaz’s latest book, The Last Gun: How Changes in the Gun Industry Are Killing Americans and What It Will Take To Stop It. On Friday, the National Rifle Association will hold its annual meeting in Nashville, Tennessee, a state where more people were killed by guns in 2013 than car crashes. “It will include the largest firearms industry trade show of new weaponry open to the public, where gun companies will prominently feature military-style, semiautomatic weapons with high-capacity ammunition magazines,” VPN said. “The NRA website promises ‘the most spectacular displays of firearms, shooting and hunting accessories in the world’ and encourages attendees to ‘bring your whole family.’” “The NRA is planning a big party in Nashville this weekend, but in reality there is nothing to celebrate,” VPC Executive Director Josh Sugarmann said. “Our analysis exposes the shameful fact that you are more likely to be killed with a gun than in a motor vehicle crash in Tennessee and 16 other states.” “The time has come to stand up to the NRA and its corporate sponsors in the gun industry and regulate firearms for health and safety, just as we regulate motor vehicles and all other consumer products,” he said. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/h...m-car-crashes/ |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns.
Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote:
As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/9/2015 12:58 AM, jps wrote:
In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. Hmm... Cars are designed with transportation in mind. Guns, not so much. Mikek |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/9/2015 7:43 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. How about your gun loony behavior. Explain that. -- Respectfully submitted by Justan Laugh of the day from Krause "I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here. I've been "born again" as a nice guy." |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
|
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 1:58:36 AM UTC-4, jps wrote:
The reason why guns are killing more people than cars in these states is due to two simultaneous trends. The first is gun nuts have undermined sensible government efforts to require life-saving controls, the study said, such as features that prevent guns from mistakenly firing to limiting firearm accesss to people with violent histories. The second trend is that manufacturers have militarized the domestic market in recent years with semi-automatic features that were never on traditional sporting and hunting arms. Any article that uses the term "gun nut" and make a false assertion that some mystical "semi-automatic features" are responsible for firearm deaths in these states is laughable at best. Obviously written by an anti-gun nut. "Though it is one of the most popular rifles sold to civilians, the AR-15 is rarely used in crimes, presumably because it's not readily concealed. The most recent FBI figures show just 358 of the 8,775 murders by firearm in 2010 involved rifles *of any type*. By comparison, 745 people were beaten to death with only hands that year, but no one has called for outlawing fists.." Read mo http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jul/23/dispelling-gun-myths/#ixzz3Wp4KQb2S |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 7:43:05 AM UTC-4, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. Just like you do, ****. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 22:58:32 -0700, jps wrote:
In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. === Oh woe, ain't it awful, ain't it awful. You should mop up a bit after that bleeding heart of yours. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. And what are you afraid of? Seems as if you are the biggest buyer of firearms here. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. And what are you afraid of? Seems as if you are the biggest buyer of firearms here. If you assume what he posts is true (a big assumption) he is the biggest buyer and seller of firearms. I prefer to collect them. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/9/15 8:20 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. And what are you afraid of? Seems as if you are the biggest buyer of firearms here. Well, Bilious, I was going to pack them all during my attendance at the NRA convention, but...amazingly, the NRA doesn't allow working firearms to attend its convention sessions. Why is that, I wonder? :) |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 4:43:05 AM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. You trade firearms faster than whores are swapped at a Los Vegas Union convention. No one else has mentioned purchasing a silencer for a pistol but you. So who ARE you afraid of Krause? |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 5:30:21 PM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/9/15 8:20 PM, Califbill wrote: Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. And what are you afraid of? Seems as if you are the biggest buyer of firearms here. Well, Bilious, I was going to pack them all during my attendance at the NRA convention, Liar. but...amazingly, the NRA doesn't allow working firearms to attend its convention sessions. Why is that, I wonder? :) But I'd bet there are guns-a-plenty at your Unions whore-swapping parties. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/9/15 8:20 PM, Califbill wrote: Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. And what are you afraid of? Seems as if you are the biggest buyer of firearms here. Well, Bilious, I was going to pack them all during my attendance at the NRA convention, but...amazingly, the NRA doesn't allow working firearms to attend its convention sessions. Why is that, I wonder? :) Yup, change the subject. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/10/15 12:57 AM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/9/15 8:20 PM, Califbill wrote: Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. And what are you afraid of? Seems as if you are the biggest buyer of firearms here. Well, Bilious, I was going to pack them all during my attendance at the NRA convention, but...amazingly, the NRA doesn't allow working firearms to attend its convention sessions. Why is that, I wonder? :) Yup, change the subject. Not to worry, Bilious: Conserva-Zombie Mini-Season doesn't start until July. :) I like to shoot inanimate targets at distances out to 100 yards. The handful of firearms I have are suited for that and make it fun. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
|
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 11:32:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
You trade firearms faster than whores are swapped at a Los Vegas Union convention. No one else has mentioned purchasing a silencer for a pistol but you. So who ARE you afraid of Krause? Hopefully, with his silenced Pistol, he will have an accident while cleaning it, shoot himself in the head, and NO ONE will hear it....LMAO |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote:
In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote: On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. Maybe they should admit the War on Drugs is failed. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 4:43:35 PM UTC-7, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote: On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. Maybe they should admit the War on Drugs is failed. And poverty...and terrorism... |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:53:41 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote: On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote: On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. Whoosh is right. We've been saying it's a bogus comparison for years, but the stats have now made that bogus comparison obsolete. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/12/15 4:22 PM, jps wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:53:41 -0400, Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote: On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. Whoosh is right. We've been saying it's a bogus comparison for years, but the stats have now made that bogus comparison obsolete. The comparison of auto deaths to firearms deaths has always been stupid and specious, but it's been offered up here for years. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:33:31 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote: On 4/12/15 4:22 PM, jps wrote: On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:53:41 -0400, Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote: On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. Whoosh is right. We've been saying it's a bogus comparison for years, but the stats have now made that bogus comparison obsolete. The comparison of auto deaths to firearms deaths has always been stupid and specious, but it's been offered up here for years. === Harry, there is certainly no one here who knows stupid and specious better than you, coupled with just a dash of serious hypocrisy. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:53:44 PM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote: On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. Harry, you mean you mean you don't like my boat 'n garage comparison? Shucks! |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On 4/13/15 12:13 AM, Tim wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:53:44 PM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/11/15 6:00 PM, Tim wrote: On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-7, jps wrote: In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. "It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore" Why would you want to try. a car is a car and a gun is a gun. They don't look nor act the same, nor are they decendant of an originating species . Well, mostly they,re made of metal. I have a 22' boat if you want to compare it to a garage.... Whoosh. For many years those opposed to reasonable firearms control used to tout the statistic that more people in this country were killed in car accidents than by firearms, and yada, yada, yada. Well, apparently that statistic is or is about to change, that more people are being killed by firearms than in car accidents. Harry, you mean you mean you don't like my boat 'n garage comparison? Shucks! It was...Palin-esque. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 22:58:32 -0700, jps wrote:
In one-third of America, you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car crash, a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis has found. Stupid. -- Guns don't cause problems. Gun owner behavior causes problems. |
It's gotten so bad, you can't even compare them to cars anymore
On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 09:34:29 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 4/9/2015 7:43 AM, Keyser Söze wrote: On 4/9/15 7:26 AM, True North wrote: As an outsider, it seems that Americans are loony over guns. Just read the posts from Ditzy Dan Kruger or even our Sheriff John Herring. The more they buy the giddier they get. You have to ask...just what are they so afraid of? It's pretty obvious Herring is afraid of people of color, latinos, women, et cetera. Ditzy Dan is filtered out here, so I don't know what he fears but I recall from second hand posts that he was buying or bought a huge caliber pistol, so I suspect he is compensating for a really small dick. How about your gun loony behavior. Explain that. No ****. Wonder how Don puts up with Harry's arsenal? -- Guns don't cause problems. Gun owner behavior causes problems. |
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