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Interesting boat ride......

Once the factory rep got the properly rated hydraulic hoses on the steering
rams,
things went a bit better:

Here's a look at a boat with a model name rather appropriate for late October.
:-)

"Black Cat"
Cat Concepts NZ29

Folks who think black cats are bad luck haven't had the pleasure of spending an
afternoon with Lance Miller of Cat Concepts. Lance allowed us to take his NZ 29
Black Cat power catamaran out on Elliott Bay on an early autumn afternoon, and
the boat is very impressive indeed.

Cat Concepts boats are designed by renown New Zealand naval architect Roger
Hill. Hill has twenty-five years experience in yacht design, and served a
sixteen year "apprenticeship" with Bruce Farr and several other highly regarded
yacht designers from the southern hemisphere. Roger Hill has been the lead
designer or co-designer on a number of well known sail and power luxury yachts,
as well as championship race boats.

In an era of gratuitously swoopy and busy designs, the NZ 29 sports a sleek and
functional profile. Although cleanly and simply drawn, a good deal of complex
engineering is incorporated into the NZ29. As we were about to discover, the
NZ29 is most definitely a high performance vessel and a light weight, yet
super-tough hull is a critical component.

Cat Concepts elected to use knitted, rather than woven fiberglass cloth in the
hull and deck laminates. Woven cloth is considerably cheaper and considered the
industry "standard," but knitted fabrics are much stronger. The hull is balsa
cored, while the deck and superstructure are cored with foam. Vinylester resins
are employed in all hull laminations below the waterline to retard osmotic
blistering, and polyester resins used throughout the remainder of the boat.

A pair of full-length stringers help bond the catamaran's deck to hull tunnel,
resulting in a stiff and secure hull-to-deck joint. This is a very solid boat,
with an integrity than can be easily appreciated when running hard into
standing chop or coming in for a soft landing on the far side of a steep swell.
Nothing rattles. At all.

The NZ29 is an ideal boat for families or individuals with priorities that
might initially seem contradictory. He wants a fun, very fast, high performance
boat. She wants a safe, stable, comfortable hull. They want a boat with
accommodations suitable for the entire family on extended weekend or summer
vacation cruises, and equally adaptable for water skiing or salmon fishing.
Most prospective boat owners would have to sacrifice two or more items on such
a diverse "wish list," but might find they can come rather close to enjoying
all of these attributes with a Cat Concepts NZ29.

Roger Hill maximized use of space in the NZ29. A full size double berth is
tucked up into the starboard bow, and a single berth is built into each hull
below the salon to bring the reasonable sleeping accommodations to four. A
compact but workable head with shower is built into the port bow. An L-shaped
settee with removable dinette table to port in the main cabin, while a galley
with a refrigerator, sink, and a Wallas stove lines the starboard cabin wall.
The Wallas stove doubles as an effective cabin heater during chilly NW winter
months. An optional sink and baitwell was installed on the aft deck. The decks
are teak, with a nifty integral teak swim step protruding between the outboard
engine mounts.

The boat seems very well assembled. All doors and windows slide easily and
latch securely. The aft bulkhead isolates the cabin from most exterior noises.

Getting underway:

The NZ29 we tested was rigged with a pair of 225HP four stroke Honda outboards.
There are smaller, more affordable engine packages available, but the Hondas
certainly make a wonderful power option for the hull. Once started, the Honda
outboards hummed rather than rumbled, purred rather than growled.

We backed into the fairway, and discovered the NZ29 is very maneuverable, but
not exceptionally nimble in close quarters. Most monohulls would have struggled
to respond as quickly as the NZ29, but we expected a Black Cat to be just
slightly more agile. We'd have to rate close quarter operation as extremely
good, rather than excellent. Even so, we entered the relatively confined
fairway with ease and tracked arrow straight at idle- surely do in part to the
directional tendencies of two hulls driven by a pair of high HP engines.
Lance's NZ29 is fitted with electronic throttle controls that are a joy to
operate.

We motored out from behind the breakwater and entered a relatively calm Elliott
Bay. We would have to spend some time hunting wakes and swells to get any
sensation of the NZ29's rough water capabilities.

Lance Miller throttled up the Hondas and we charged toward the center of the
bay. The catamaran hull was on plane almost instantly, with no change at all in
the altitude of the bow. Lance put his hand over the Raymarine L760 plotter and
said, "OK now, without looking, how fast do you think we're going?" The ride
was smooth, there was virtually no wake, and most family cars make more engine
noise than we were hearing from the Hondas. A glance out the cabin window
indicated that we were moving along at a pretty brisk clip. (As a trawler
boater, I must admit to feeling that anything over 10 knots is a "brisk clip")
I compared the ride and noise level to other vessels we have tested and made a
good faith guess, "I don't know, maybe 14 or 15 knots?"

Lance grinned. "Everybody always underestimates this boat. It's so well
mannered there isn't a traditional sensation of speed." When he moved his hand
away from the display screen of the Raymarine plotter, the GPS reported our
speed as 21.7 knots.

We accelerated to 25 knots, a very comfortable "slow cruise" speed for the
NZ29. The Flo-Scan fuel meters reported a fuel consumption of 8.6 gallons per
hour, per engine.
Before we realized it, we were all the way across Elliott Bay, just in time to
encounter a fortuitous swell generated by a recently departed Washington State
Ferry. Whizzing along on the twin hulls seemed almost like wearing water
skates. The Black Cat skimmed the surface of the bay. When we hit the ferry
swell, (at 25 knots), there was no crashing, jarring, superstructure-shaking
impact that one would anticipate, just a momentary feeling similar to being
slightly airborne. We didn't have a spotter boat, so there's no way to tell if
the hull actually left the water but it would seem that it did not- there was
no corresponding "splash" when the split second of weightlessness had passed.

Lance suggested that we do a couple of turns. For our turning exercise, we
accelerated to 30-knots and put the wheel hard over. The turn was all but
absolutely flat. While a monohull would have leaned well over on its chine in a
similar maneuver, the Black Cat NZ 29 was eerily flat and level in the turn.
One would say impossibly flat, but seeing and experiencing is believing. At 30
knots, it does take some surface area to bring the boat around. The turn is
flat, but rather wide. Tighter turns are easily accomplished at "slow" speeds
under 20 knots. (We did scrub off about 4-5 knots speed by the time we had
finished the turn.)

We ran toward West Point at 35 knots. "Check out the wake," suggested Lance.
There was virtually none. A pair of roostertails just aft of the Honda
outboards, and a few ambitious ripples to either side. Wakeboarders and
jetskiers will be disappointed with the NZ29 wake, but the boaters a Black Cat
passes (and there will be a lot of passing done) will be grateful for its
minimally disruptive, comparatively civilized wake. With the doors and windows
closed, there was no problem holding a conversation at normal tone and volume.

We dodged a red and white crab float, and were scooting along just marvelously
when Lance asked, "Would you like to see how fast she'll go?" (Good grief!
Faster than this?
There's only so much this old trawler/crawler heart will stand, but we did come
out here to test the boat, right?)

"Sure!" I answered, with affected bravado.

We throttled up to 5800 RPM. We had to be flying. The Raymarine L760 began
recording higher and higher speeds. 35 knots. 38, 40, 41, 42, 43. We settled
in at 43 knots, or something over 50 mph. I was watching for drift. Most people
who own a Black Cat NZ29 won't routinely run it that fast, but it's interesting
to know that the boat can do so, and with relative ease. Shilshole to Port
Townsend in just over half an hour on a calm day? It can take longer than that
to drive a car across Lake Washington on the 520 bridge!

I was too busy steering to check the flow meter at 43 knots, but when we backed
to a far more reasonable 40, the Flo-Scans registered total fuel consumption of
33 gph. Achieving over 1nmpg at that sort of speed is a decent accomplishment.

The speed was impressive. The few moderate wakes and swells we encountered
seemed well handled, both headed and quartered. We needed an opportunity to
test for beam sea stability, but the wind was off for coffee break and Elliott
Bay looked like a mirror. We were in luck! A high-powered, semi-displacement
cruiser left the Duwamish River and headed for West Point, throwing a fat, tall
whitewater wake. Hot dog! But he was a good mile or more away.

We throttled up and overtook the cruiser in just a few minutes' time. We got
into position and throttled back to take a good wash, full abeam. The
experience reminded me of other catamarans I have been aboard in beam sea
conditions. The hulls "step" over the wave, one at a time. I always compare the
sensation to a man climbing stairs- one foot supports the weight while the
other foot is lifting. The Cat Concepts NZ29 rocked, but only a little.
Traditional monohulls are like a man climbing stairs in a sack race: he is
forced to "jump" from step to step.

We could have spent all afternoon enjoying the boat. What a treat! Disinclined
to wear out a welcome, we motored back to Elliott Bay Marina and slowed to ten
knots a few hundred yards from the breakwater. It seemed like we were standing
still.

Conclusion:

The Cat Concepts Black Cat NZ29 is a relatively small boat, and won't likely
appeal to boaters whose primary consideration is the cubic volume of cabin
accommodations. That said, there are a number of things this boat does
incredibly well. It is indeed a boat that can be exciting to run, comfortable
and stable to ride, practical for weekend and vacation family outings, fast
enough for skiing or water toys, and (with the addition of a trolling motor) a
suitable platform for chasing wily pescatores. In addition, even with the
high-end 225HP four stroke Hondas the boat is still within the financial reach
of many new boat shoppers. Lance Miller has posted a price of $175,000 on the
Black Cat NZ29.

Interesting boat ride......

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

:

The Cat Concepts Black Cat NZ29 is a relatively small boat, and won't
likely
appeal to boaters whose primary consideration is the cubic volume of cabin
accommodations. That said, there are a number of things this boat does
incredibly well. It is indeed a boat that can be exciting to run,
comfortable
and stable to ride, practical for weekend and vacation family outings,
fast
enough for skiing or water toys, and (with the addition of a trolling
motor) a
suitable platform for chasing wily pescatores. In addition, even with the
high-end 225HP four stroke Hondas the boat is still within the financial
reach
of many new boat shoppers. Lance Miller has posted a price of $175,000 on
the
Black Cat NZ29.

My question is where do they come up with the prices on these (and other)
boats? dual Yamaha's are about $36k. Where is the hull and boat worth
$139k? Or is this NZ dollars? Same question on the Abaco Scout, $117k list
with same engines. I looked at the Pro Sports ProCat 2860 WA. With dual
1.7L Mercruiser diesels is only about $117k plus accessories. The NZ29 can
not be $55k better. Looked at the boat as a week long cruiser and the cabin
is just not big enough.
Bill

Interesting boat ride......

My question is where do they come up with the prices on these (and other)
boats? dual Yamaha's are about $36k. Where is the hull and boat worth
$139k? Or is this NZ dollars? Same question on the Abaco Scout, $117k list
with same engines. I looked at the Pro Sports ProCat 2860 WA. With dual
1.7L Mercruiser diesels is only about $117k plus accessories. The NZ29 can
not be $55k better. Looked at the boat as a week long cruiser and the cabin
is just not big enough.
Bill

I'm not familiar with the Pro Sports Pro Cat, so it would be impossible to
offer an informed impression.

While the Black Cat isn't a large boat, it is slightly different in proportion
(better or not would be in the eye of the beholder) than some direct
competitors.

For example, we motored past a competing catamaran as we went down the fairway.
The differences in the two boats were visually apparent to even the most casual
observer. The NZ29 has more freeboard, and the profile of the hull is
different. The competing boat has port and starboard hulls (I believe the
correct, but hoeplessly obscure term for a cat hull is "ama") that maintain a
fairly constant angle between the deck and the waterline.
The NZ 29 hulls "flare" above the waterline, increasing buoyancy more rapidly
as either
hull become submerged. The flare also results in additional interior room
within the
hulls.

The NZ29 has more freeboard than the directly competing boat. Most people will
find full standing headroom in either hull, when entering the starboard
"stateroom" of using the portside head.

If your gripe is interior room, you certainly have a point.....although
compared to a 29' express cruiser the Black Cat will stack up
somewhat competitively. There's a genuine double bunk (extends into the space
between the hulls under the foredeck) and two *big* single berths. The main
cabin is
of course a lot wider than on a monohull.
Galley and dinette are comparably sized to most boats in the 26-29 foot range.

The real value of this boat is in its ride, handling, and performance rather
than the interior cabin volume. If a buyer wasn't interested in those
particular aspects, they would certainly make a different choice for the same
money, or less.

I guess the trap that it would be easy for most of us to step into when
comparing catamarans would be to begin by assuming that since they are
catamarans they must all be directly comparable in materials, fit, and finish
and that the major variable is going to be price alone. There's no reason that
would be true on a catamaran any more so than a monohull.

Boat value is a very subjective concept.
99.9% of the people who look at any new boat at a boat show, etc, will walk
away convinced it's either not affordable, overpriced, or both. The boat
dealers are looking for that 0.1%.

When I do these reviews, I generally don't get into direct comparisons between
the review boat and competitors. Several reasons, including the fact that most
of the comparisons people make between boats *are* subjective. Much of what I
write about a boat is subjective, as well. One opinion is almost never more
"correct" than another. If the article works as it is intended, the readers are
at least slightly better informed about the boat, get a general sense of how it
performs, and can draw their own preliminary conclusions- as you have done. :-)

(BTW, suggested retail on a Black Cat NZ29 with the "standard" engine package-
((150HP IIRC)), no RayMarine electronics, etc etc etc, is under $140,000. The
boat can be built as a diesel I/O as well. You'd never see 50+ mph with either
of those configurations, but if speed isn't that important to a buyer the
builder does offer some lower cost alternatives)

Interesting boat ride......

I like the Procat. If you get Western Outdoor News, they did a report on
the boat early in the Summer. Looked at the boat at the Long Beach Fred
Hall show. The center section messes up the cabin for cruising. Still,
wonder where they come up with the pricing. Can not take that much labor to
build the boat, even with braided Kevlar, the hull price is way out of line.
I can go to Australia and buy a really nice cat. Seems as if the Oz and NZ
use a lot of them. Aquaintance bought his 34' cat in Oz and cost 24k to
have it shipped to Long Beach, CA. about 2 years ago. The Scout Abaco is
another nice boat but still overpriced. Just because I can afford to pay
$100k for a 27' boat, does not mean it is sensible to pay $100k.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
My question is where do they come up with the prices on these (and other)
boats? dual Yamaha's are about $36k. Where is the hull and boat worth
$139k? Or is this NZ dollars? Same question on the Abaco Scout, $117k
list
with same engines. I looked at the Pro Sports ProCat 2860 WA. With dual
1.7L Mercruiser diesels is only about $117k plus accessories. The NZ29
can
not be $55k better. Looked at the boat as a week long cruiser and the
cabin
is just not big enough.
Bill

I'm not familiar with the Pro Sports Pro Cat, so it would be impossible to
offer an informed impression.

While the Black Cat isn't a large boat, it is slightly different in
proportion
(better or not would be in the eye of the beholder) than some direct
competitors.

For example, we motored past a competing catamaran as we went down the
fairway.
The differences in the two boats were visually apparent to even the most
casual
observer. The NZ29 has more freeboard, and the profile of the hull is
different. The competing boat has port and starboard hulls (I believe the
correct, but hoeplessly obscure term for a cat hull is "ama") that
maintain a
fairly constant angle between the deck and the waterline.
The NZ 29 hulls "flare" above the waterline, increasing buoyancy more
rapidly
as either
hull become submerged. The flare also results in additional interior room
within the
hulls.

The NZ29 has more freeboard than the directly competing boat. Most people
will
find full standing headroom in either hull, when entering the starboard
"stateroom" of using the portside head.

If your gripe is interior room, you certainly have a point.....although
compared to a 29' express cruiser the Black Cat will stack up
somewhat competitively. There's a genuine double bunk (extends into the
space
between the hulls under the foredeck) and two *big* single berths. The
main
cabin is
of course a lot wider than on a monohull.
Galley and dinette are comparably sized to most boats in the 26-29 foot
range.

The real value of this boat is in its ride, handling, and performance
rather
than the interior cabin volume. If a buyer wasn't interested in those
particular aspects, they would certainly make a different choice for the
same
money, or less.

I guess the trap that it would be easy for most of us to step into when
comparing catamarans would be to begin by assuming that since they are
catamarans they must all be directly comparable in materials, fit, and
finish
and that the major variable is going to be price alone. There's no reason
that
would be true on a catamaran any more so than a monohull.

Boat value is a very subjective concept.
99.9% of the people who look at any new boat at a boat show, etc, will
walk
away convinced it's either not affordable, overpriced, or both. The boat
dealers are looking for that 0.1%.

When I do these reviews, I generally don't get into direct comparisons
between
the review boat and competitors. Several reasons, including the fact that
most
of the comparisons people make between boats *are* subjective. Much of
what I
write about a boat is subjective, as well. One opinion is almost never
more
"correct" than another. If the article works as it is intended, the
readers are
at least slightly better informed about the boat, get a general sense of
how it
performs, and can draw their own preliminary conclusions- as you have
done. :-)

(BTW, suggested retail on a Black Cat NZ29 with the "standard" engine
package-
((150HP IIRC)), no RayMarine electronics, etc etc etc, is under $140,000.
The
boat can be built as a diesel I/O as well. You'd never see 50+ mph with
either
of those configurations, but if speed isn't that important to a buyer the
builder does offer some lower cost alternatives)

Interesting boat ride......

Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that!

Interesting boat ride......

Backyard Renegade wrote:
Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that!

You're here for boating? I thought *you* were here to insult anyone who
disagreed with your simple-minded, alcohol-induced paranoia about your
family and your politics.

Interesting boat ride......

Harry the liar. Proveyour statements.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Backyard Renegade wrote:
Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that!

You're here for boating? I thought *you* were here to insult anyone who
disagreed with your simple-minded, alcohol-induced paranoia about your
family and your politics.

Interesting boat ride......

Harry the liar. Proveyour statements.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Backyard Renegade wrote:
Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that.

Doesn't Renegade's post prove itself?

Renegade responds to an on-topic post with an insulting remark, suggests that
the poster refrain from making any further on-topic posts, and then insists
that he's "here for the boating."

Seems odd, but it's consistent with other threads posted today.

Interesting boat ride......

Nope. Harry claims that BR is alcohol sodden, etc. Just tired of the ****
that Harry spews. Lots of it lies, or doctored news articles from
legitimate press sources.
Bill

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Harry the liar. Proveyour statements.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Backyard Renegade wrote:
Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that.

Doesn't Renegade's post prove itself?

Renegade responds to an on-topic post with an insulting remark, suggests
that
the poster refrain from making any further on-topic posts, and then
insists
that he's "here for the boating."

Seems odd, but it's consistent with other threads posted today.

Interesting boat ride......

but it
would be nice if you'd report the negatives as well as the positives.

Read it again, if you'd care to.
I mentioned a few things that I thought could be improved a little and observed
a few of the shortcomings of the design from an interior layout perspective.

The twin Yamaha 225s should have been
burning close to 45+ gph at WOT which is not a very cheery number for
most folks, but you were "too busy steering" to notice. Maybe.

Hey, I'm a 9 knot boater. I was busy steering. I accurately reported the
Flo-Scan reading at near WOT. Who gives a monkey dung how many GPH the boat
burns at WOT? How many "hours" is the typical user going to run at WOT?

Another example: "We accelerated to 25 knots, a very comfortable
"slow cruise" speed for the NZ29. The Flo-Scan fuel meters reported a
fuel consumption of 8.6 gallons per hour, per engine." Reporting fuel
consumption "per engine" borders on intellectual dishonesty when

No it doesn't. Did you have any difficulty comprehending the total fuel burn?
Nor would anybody else. Here's an interesting bit of information you might
appreciate:
At 25 knots, the Flo-Scan readout shows
8.6. I mentioned that the Flo-Scan meters reported 8.6 gph per engine because
only one engine shows on the Flo-Scan at a time. You have to flip a toggle
switch to select port or starboard and see the exact reading for that engine.

So in spite of your discomfort with the phrasing, 8.6 gph per engine is a very
accurate description of the Flo-Scan reading. People familiar with Flo-Scan
meters would have no difficulty understanding my meaning. You might have a
point: perhaps it would be well to mention that the meter only shows one engine
at a time.

Interesting boat ride......

Nope. Harry claims that BR is alcohol sodden, etc. Just tired of the ****
that Harry spews. Lots of it lies, or doctored news articles from
legitimate press sources.
Bill

OK, I have to agree that there is no evidence that Backyard has been drinking.
Would you agree that something seems to have set him off, though? Guy hardly
says "boo" for weeks, and then implies I support homosexuality and pedophelia?

There are too many OT posts. Harry starts a bunch, as do others. Liberals as
well as conservatives I personally *start* one no more than a couple of times
per month, but there must be 10-12 of them flying through here on an average
day. Many of us participate once the thread is
started. "Many of us" would include me, and you too, Bill (to a lesser degree).

With the disappearance of Skipper and and handful of other conservatives, it
does seem like the liberal OT posts are outnumbering the others. Lately. Maybe
it's because the liberals are currently more outraged........just like the
conservatives were more outraged just 4 years ago. :-)

Interesting boat ride......

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Nope. Harry claims that BR is alcohol sodden, etc. Just tired of the
****
that Harry spews. Lots of it lies, or doctored news articles from
legitimate press sources.
Bill

OK, I have to agree that there is no evidence that Backyard has been
drinking.
Would you agree that something seems to have set him off, though? Guy
hardly
says "boo" for weeks, and then implies I support homosexuality and
pedophelia?

There are too many OT posts. Harry starts a bunch, as do others. Liberals
as
well as conservatives I personally *start* one no more than a couple of
times
per month, but there must be 10-12 of them flying through here on an
average
day. Many of us participate once the thread is
started. "Many of us" would include me, and you too, Bill (to a lesser
degree).

With the disappearance of Skipper and and handful of other conservatives,
it
does seem like the liberal OT posts are outnumbering the others. Lately.
Maybe
it's because the liberals are currently more outraged........just like the
conservatives were more outraged just 4 years ago. :-)

It is not the OT posts or the number of OT posts, it is the crap he is
spewing. Doctored news articles, sick sexual references with no basis.
Lies. It is one thing to post sarcasm, but to constantly push out lies and
try to hide behind sarcasm is wrong. Maybe BR got fet up with Harry's crap?

Interesting boat ride......

Chuck I wasn't going to say anything but now the subject of yet another
cheering not critically reviewed ad piece has been raised & accepting
you'll never confirm that this was the same boat originally supplied
with dangerous steering which did fail & yes you we OK but it was

Au contraire! Read the first two lines of the post again. I did confirm that
it was the same boat. (Your oversight is forgiven.)

Most of those "we saved some weight" spruikers are more interested in
saving the money that weight would have cost them & as for a balsa cored
"hull" below the waterline??? what since the 70s??

There's darn little hull below the waterline on a cat. And many manufacturers
still build cored hulls, on some very expensive vessels.

Apart from the under spec (read "we saved some money") steering that
failed in a magazine test it seems the general trend continues &
everything that should set your alarm bells ringing is put to you & you
then accept it, as a virtue??

There is more than one proper way to build a boat.

It's possible to do a quality job with a number of different techniques. I will
say this; the hull on this vessel is as *tight* as
anything its size category.

Interesting boat ride......

Maybe BR got fet up with Harry's crap?

Possible.

(Although he took it out on a lot of other people if he did.)

Interesting boat ride......

Gould 0738 wrote:
Harry the liar. Proveyour statements.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Backyard Renegade wrote:

Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that.

Doesn't Renegade's post prove itself?

Renegade responds to an on-topic post with an insulting remark, suggests that
the poster refrain from making any further on-topic posts, and then insists
that he's "here for the boating."

Seems odd, but it's consistent with other threads posted today.

Chuck I wasn't going to say anything but now the subject of yet another
cheering not critically reviewed ad piece has been raised & accepting
you'll never confirm that this was the same boat originally supplied
with dangerous steering which did fail & yes you we OK but it was more
good luck that good management.

So I'm surprised you describe the hull construction as;

Cat Concepts elected to use knitted, rather than woven fiberglass cloth in the
hull and deck laminates. Woven cloth is considerably cheaper and considered the
industry "standard," but knitted fabrics are much stronger. The hull is balsa
cored, while the deck and superstructure are cored with foam. Vinylester resins
are employed in all hull laminations below the waterline to retard osmotic
blistering, and polyester resins used throughout the remainder of the boat.

This smacks of an all too light construction method better suited to
racing yachts (the spruik seems to want to make a virtue of that but
....geez louise given the "southern designers priors with yachts.) Racing
yachts can be light & strong but alas they can also be very short lived.

Most of those "we saved some weight" spruikers are more interested in
saving the money that weight would have cost them & as for a balsa cored
"hull" below the waterline??? what since the 70s??

Anyway I'm sure you ran this past some of your many knowledgeable boat
builders, although you probably had trouble understanding their answers,
given they were giggling so much.

Apart from the under spec (read "we saved some money") steering that
failed in a magazine test it seems the general trend continues &
everything that should set your alarm bells ringing is put to you & you
then accept it, as a virtue??

It may or may not interest you that some "southern" yacht designers
were running amok down here some years ago & some would say they were
responsible for deaths (not me mind you just "some") we had keels
falling off, lots of hull failures in yacht races etc etc & of course
nobody would own up to it being their fault, the designers blamed the
builders & visa versa . Eventually they had to change the rules so now
"any" design has to get an ABS (American Bureau of Shipping) certificate
on the hull design & scantlings or they're not allowed to even be in an
ocean race. Pretty much settled the argument that the designers they
were chasing light weight at the cost of a safe hull.

I don't know if you followed the america's cup this year?? but the
Swiss (of all people) won it, after the "southern" designed NZ boat all
but fell to bits. Some years agao an Aussie Americas' cup boat broke in
half outright!!

So be careful when the spruikers start on this crap about how clever
they are, they're usually doing a ficht, testing with consumer's money.

K

Interesting boat ride......

Calif Bill wrote:

Nope. Harry claims that BR is alcohol sodden, etc. Just tired of the ****
that Harry spews. Lots of it lies, or doctored news articles from
legitimate press sources.
Bill

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Harry the liar. Proveyour statements.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Backyard Renegade wrote:
Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that.

Doesn't Renegade's post prove itself?

Renegade responds to an on-topic post with an insulting remark, suggests
that
the poster refrain from making any further on-topic posts, and then
insists
that he's "here for the boating."

Seems odd, but it's consistent with other threads posted today.

Well, I was being polite. There has to be some excuse for Renegade's
mindless postings here...I figure booze is behind it.

--
__________________________________________________ __________
Email sent to will never reach me.

Interesting boat ride......

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:

Nope. Harry claims that BR is alcohol sodden, etc. Just tired of the
****
that Harry spews. Lots of it lies, or doctored news articles from
legitimate press sources.
Bill

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Harry the liar. Proveyour statements.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Backyard Renegade wrote:
Bought and paid for... Nice sales pitch, what did you get out of
it?
Yeah, I know, the better your article, the more articles you get
to
write. Stick to political shills here, and high fiving Harry and
Jps,
leave the boating to those of us that are here for that.

Doesn't Renegade's post prove itself?

Renegade responds to an on-topic post with an insulting remark,
suggests
that
the poster refrain from making any further on-topic posts, and then
insists
that he's "here for the boating."

Seems odd, but it's consistent with other threads posted today.

Well, I was being polite. There has to be some excuse for Renegade's
mindless postings here...I figure booze is behind it.

--
__________________________________________________ __________
Email sent to will never reach me.

Ullico stock behind your Labsta boat?

Interesting boat ride......

K Smith wrote:

There are lots of "cored" hulls but the trend for some time now has
been not to core below the waterline BUT the point was this is balsa
cored. Modern core materials are all but impervious to moisture, not so
balsa & a balsa cored hull has well known risks attached, which your
article should have at least made mention of.

Some modern core materials are all but impervious to moisture, but not
all of them. There have been problems with some of the foam materials.

The BS about glass & the use of vinyl ester resin (like most others) is
just marketing spruik.

Oh? Now you are an expert on fiberglass chemistry and production? Based
upon what? Your years of sniffing epoxy?

Some of Harry's very recent lies, he has lied from day one & continues;

This is a person who has NEVER not once been able to join even a coastal
navigation thread, much less celestial,

Oh, I'm quite able, I just choose not to do so.

--
__________________________________________________ __________
Email sent to will never reach me.

Interesting boat ride......

Gould 0738 wrote:
Chuck I wasn't going to say anything but now the subject of yet another
cheering not critically reviewed ad piece has been raised & accepting
you'll never confirm that this was the same boat originally supplied
with dangerous steering which did fail & yes you we OK but it was

Au contraire! Read the first two lines of the post again. I did confirm that
it was the same boat. (Your oversight is forgiven.)

Thanks, I was assuming & yes I shouldn't, but it seems the top bit was
to us in the NG?? who had seen the previous story?? did you make it
clear in the review??

Regardless thanks for the forgiveness:-)

Most of those "we saved some weight" spruikers are more interested in
saving the money that weight would have cost them & as for a balsa cored
"hull" below the waterline??? what since the 70s??

There's darn little hull below the waterline on a cat. And many manufacturers
still build cored hulls, on some very expensive vessels.

There are lots of "cored" hulls but the trend for some time now has
been not to core below the waterline BUT the point was this is balsa
cored. Modern core materials are all but impervious to moisture, not so
balsa & a balsa cored hull has well known risks attached, which your
article should have at least made mention of.

There's lots of "hull" in the water on a cat, indeed that's the problem
they're very load sensitive together with being power & fuel hungry for
that very reason.

Apart from the under spec (read "we saved some money") steering that
failed in a magazine test it seems the general trend continues &
everything that should set your alarm bells ringing is put to you & you
then accept it, as a virtue??

There is more than one proper way to build a boat.

It's possible to do a quality job with a number of different techniques. I will
say this; the hull on this vessel is as *tight* as
anything its size category.

"Tight" come on Chuck, the readers can comment he-) if you rang
around the constructors of similar sized boats, gave them the
construction method (end grain balsa core all over) & the final weight
they all say yes a good racing hull, but then they're not selling those
they're selling fishing general purpose boats which given the pricing
the owner is entitled to think will last & reflect that in resale.

The BS about glass & the use of vinyl ester resin (like most others) is
just marketing spruik.

Anyway we have a different perspective that's all.

K

Some of Harry's very recent lies, he has lied from day one & continues;

This is a person who has NEVER not once been able to join even a coastal
navigation thread, much less celestial, no matter he does & never has
owned a boat,the charter boats he occasionally pays to be taken out on
wouldn't tell him anything, other than not to come back. He makes these
lies up as he goes along.

I got a Tamaya for my 10th Anniversary. It's a lovely instrument.

I did own two plastic sextants some years ago, but I got rid of one of
them. The Tamaya was a recent anniversary gift. But I said that. Are you
just plain stupid?

Weems & Plath doesn't make the sextants you show on that page, Mark.
They simply sell them. As they sell or sold the plastic sextants I had.
But if you bought one of those Tamayas from W&P, you certainly could say
it was a W&P Sextant, just as W&P says they are, on the page you cited,
under the heading:

If you are referring to my two plastic sextants, one was purchased new
from Weems & Plath and I bought the other used from a fellow who said he
got it at Weems. Ergo, they came from Weems & Plath. They're Davis
sextants, of course, the guys who make the popular-priced plastic sextants.