middle class...
 

On 10/2/14 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:14:59 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."

Yes but if you are talking middle class you are implying quality of
life.

A stupid person can be poor making $100k and his next door neighbor
can be rich making 80.



The problem is defining the quality of life implicit in the term "middle
class." It is impossible to quantify with consensus.

middle class...
 

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:42:36 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:14:59 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."

Yes but if you are talking middle class you are implying quality of
life.

A stupid person can be poor making $100k and his next door neighbor
can be rich making 80.

Harry is always decrying the destruction of the middle class, so he
should know the correct definition.

middle class...
 

On 10/2/2014 7:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are (HERE) really "middle class"... no matter how much they insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...

I think maybe you missed a NOT where I added a HERE in parenthesis above.

But, Where is "household income" on the income tax form.
Looking at my 1040 form;
Is it line 22, Total income?
Is it line 37 Adjusted Gross income?
Is it line 43 Taxable income?
Is it taxable income minus taxes? (Doubt That)

Line 22 Total income = 100%
Line 37 Adjusted Gross income = 63% of line 22
Line 43 Taxable income = 37% of line 22
taxable income minus taxes paid = 23% of line 22

Note: I'm self employed so taxes paid includes S.S. taxes.

Using Line 22 Total income, looks like I'm rich, at least this year.
Taxable income minus taxes paid,---- I'm living in poverty.

So, now I wonder, what does Median Household Income mean?

Mikek

middle class...
 

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:02:08 -0400, KC wrote:

On 10/2/2014 9:53 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/2/2014 8:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are really "middle class"... no matter how much they insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...


I'll have to work on figuring out what you are saying. Went over my head.



Just wondering where the bar is. Several here have noted that they are
in the "middle class" but I am not sure we are all on the same page as
to what is "middle class". Most rich folks I have known claim to be
"middle class", but I am pretty sure their def is different than mine.
So for the sake of conversation, when I say "middle class" I am not
referring to folks who made 6 figures during their working years... I am
talking about folks who are making between say, 40-80 in general upper
middle class might get you up to 100,000 a year. Of course there is
always the exceptions like NYC, etc...

===

In the NYC area the upper middle class starts around $300 to 400K
annual income these days. My oldest son the lawyer just bought a
condo in Brooklyn, decent place but only about 1200 sq ft and in a so
so kind of area. It was somewhere in the vicinity of $1M plus he
pays both NY and NYC income taxes.
Youngest son bought a decent but not great house in the NY 'burbs,
older place that needed a lot of work, around 2,000 sq ft in a very
nice town. It set him back over $900K. He also pays NY and NYC
income taxes.

To be considered wealthy in the NYC area takes an annual family income
of about $1m + or a net worth in excess of about $10M. Believe it or
not there are quite a few people who qualify.

middle class...
 

On 10/2/2014 2:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,

if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest?

That's my line!

It is simple lack of forethought or discipline.
If you can pay for it plus interest, with a little forethought and
discipline, you can pay cash. But once you spend 3 years saving $10,000,
you really think, do I really want to spend it?
Hopefully that's the beginning of a fruitful future.

Mikek

middle class...
 

On 10/2/2014 3:10 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:56:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:







I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate

meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily

definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical

differences.



Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.

A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.

Along the same lines, many people who are technically above the middle income, middle class line still consider themselves middle class.
That's where they came from, and while they may be earning well above that imaginary mark, they are still living essentially the same as they used to.
Yeah, they may not have to budget for that new set of tires, not worry about about a clothing budget, etc.
But as their lifestyle naturally expanded in subtle ways, the money gets used up and after a while it doesn't
feel like they are making that much more than they used to.


While we've certainly spent some money along the way, my wife has always kept us grounded.
We've socked away money for retirement. When that happens, if the SS checks are still around, they'll just be icing on the cake.

Congrats brother, I'm in the same boat, and credit my wife also.
If we both get SS, we probably won't be middle class anymore, (whatever
that means).

Mikek

middle class...
 

On 10/2/14 5:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:42:36 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:14:59 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."

Yes but if you are talking middle class you are implying quality of
life.

A stupid person can be poor making $100k and his next door neighbor
can be rich making 80.

Harry is always decrying the destruction of the middle class, so he
should know the correct definition.



Yup. You're an intellectual cipher.

middle class...
 

On 10/2/14 5:13 PM, amdx wrote:
On 10/2/2014 7:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are (HERE) really "middle class"... no matter how much they
insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...

I think maybe you missed a NOT where I added a HERE in parenthesis above.

But, Where is "household income" on the income tax form.
Looking at my 1040 form;
Is it line 22, Total income?
Is it line 37 Adjusted Gross income?
Is it line 43 Taxable income?
Is it taxable income minus taxes? (Doubt That)

Line 22 Total income = 100%
Line 37 Adjusted Gross income = 63% of line 22
Line 43 Taxable income = 37% of line 22
taxable income minus taxes paid = 23% of line 22

Note: I'm self employed so taxes paid includes S.S. taxes.

Using Line 22 Total income, looks like I'm rich, at least this year.
Taxable income minus taxes paid,---- I'm living in poverty.

So, now I wonder, what does Median Household Income mean?

Mikek






Household income simply is the total amount of money brought into a home
from all sources by everyone in the home.

All "median income" means is the amount that divides the income
distribution into two equal groups, half having income above that
amount, and half having income below that amount. Mean income (average)
is the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group
by the number of units in that group.

That's from Wikipedia. It is correct. I doubt it gives you any useful
information. The median household income in the United States in 2012
was just under $31,000.

middle class...
 

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 12:25:07 -0400, KC wrote:

if you
live in NYC and make 130 and are still struggling to maintain a "middle
class" lifestyle, maybe you "sacrifice a little", move out of the city
20 miles, buy a car and live like a king... :)

===

Not really. All of Long Island is expensive, as is North Jersey,
Westchester, Rockland and Fairfield counties. You'd have to go 80 or
90 miles up the Hudson or way out into central Connecticut, well away
from the coast and NY metro area.

middle class...
 

On 10/2/14 6:44 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:59:10 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:14:59 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."

Yes but if you are talking middle class you are implying quality of
life.

A stupid person can be poor making $100k and his next door neighbor
can be rich making 80.



The problem is defining the quality of life implicit in the term "middle
class." It is impossible to quantify with consensus.

For something you can't define, you certainly have no problem talking
about how badly they are doing.

You can't have it both ways.



You're the one using obsolete terms. I'm the one saying we need
different measuring sticks and descriptors. I went to college and paid
attention in stats 101 and 102.