On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/















Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html




No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't
look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't
move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side
or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just
sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try
this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in
breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun
however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of
forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the
suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you
are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and
the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?



Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape
again. :-)





Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get
the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering.
The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the
most efficient way to make a corner...

You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw
out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking
about...

Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will
say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner
better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip
the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle
of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)...
Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as
much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees...

But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering
all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be
"racing" on the street anyway

On 2/12/2014 3:49 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:05:39 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/













Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html


No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?

Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Don't countersteer. Try turning the handlebars to the right next time you want to turn right. Do it
at about 50 mph.

Make sure your insurance is paid up.


Can I start to lean first? If so, no problem.. Again, we do not lead
with the front end of the bike... we steer with the rear end. The most
efficient use of the power is for the front and rear wheel to be lined
up, and the rear wheel tracking forward, not sideways... period... draw
it out, you understand how to sail, you can get this. Again,
countersteering is a common and useful tool, just not for us...

On 2/12/2014 3:52 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:15:41 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/12/2014 12:35 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:44:07 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:20 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:33:01 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/12/2014 10:06 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:42 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:06:41 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
__ says...

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/







Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French,
and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html


No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

Just like a motor cycle, you just lean into the turn to make it go
that way.

No, leaning doesn't make it turn. Leaning enables the motorcycle to be
kept more vertical when
turning. Pushing on the handlebar makes you turn. Push left, go left.
Push right, go right.
Countersteering.


Heh. I just mentioned to Scott about that. Those who don't ride will
think it's weird. They think it should turn like a car.



Yes, counter steering but again, it's not the fastest way around the
corner

It's the only way around the corner, at speed, on a motorcycle.


I am beating myself up and I can't think of any place on the track where
counter steering is faster...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202016412913497&set=a.10202016402 113227.1073741828.1281248494&type=3&theater

Here is Jess setting up for a corner... notice she is turning left, and
her bars are slightly left.. If she let her back tire slide out more
(blowing the corner) the bike would have to stand back up and the back
tire come back in line to get out of the corner... don't know if that
makes any sense. I have a video I could find later of two riders me and
Jess study. One came though the corner right (her mentor) and the guy
behind counter steered through and lost two seconds in the corner...

Letting the back tire 'slide out more' is not a method of riding for anyone but dirt bikers. When
she initiated the turn to the left, she did it by pushing on the left bar or pulling on the right
bar. Once the bike started leaning (and turning) she can slide all she wants.

I think what she is doing in the picture is coming out of a turn. So she's pushing on the right bar
to straighten the bike up (or pulling on the left bar). Looking at the tracks in the dirt also shows
that she's through the turn.


That picture is in the first 30 feet of the turn.. and no. She doesn't
have to push the left down to initiate the turn. Some turns she comes
into airborne and she already has the bars turned in the direction of
the turn... I see completely what you guys are talking about. I have had
a mc licence since '76 and always thought that way... Until I started
training Jess. She comes into a corner and throws her weight over the
bike.. but pushes both bars down... the outside bar further... never the
inside bar, never let that rear tire get outside of the radius of the
front tire...... Just the way it is. Again, if she pushes down on the
inside bar, the rear tire kicks outside the radius of the inside tire.
now you have thrust pushing askew from the direction of the bike... we
calle it "wash out" or "blowing the berm".. draw it out, put arrows for
thrust.. You will see...

Uh-huh. I just hope Jess, while on pavement going at speed, doesn't ever push left to go right.
Something will get broke.


OK, let's go from there.. When you are countersteering on the street, by
design the thrust of the rear tire and front tire are not in sync with
the direction of the turn.. So which tire do you slide?

On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/
















Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but
this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html





No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't
look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't
move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side
or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just
sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try
this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in
breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun
however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of
forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the
suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you
are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and
the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?



Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape
again. :-)





Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get
the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering.
The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the
most efficient way to make a corner...

You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw
out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking
about...

Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will
say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner
better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip
the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle
of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)...
Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as
much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees...

But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering
all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be
"racing" on the street anyway


Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb
Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the
last turn I ever made.

On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/

















Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but
this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html






No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't
look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't
move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side
or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just
sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try
this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right*
handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in
breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun
however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of
forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the
suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around
the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you
are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and
the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the
corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have
that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?



Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape
again. :-)





Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get
the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering.
The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the
most efficient way to make a corner...

You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw
out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking
about...

Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will
say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner
better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip
the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle
of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)...
Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as
much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees...

But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering
all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be
"racing" on the street anyway


Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb
Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the
last turn I ever made.



Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer
slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though It was half the
weight of your bike too...

On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/

















Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but
this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html






No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't
look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't
move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side
or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just
sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try
this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right*
handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in
breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun
however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of
forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the
suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around
the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you
are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and
the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the
corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have
that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?



Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape
again. :-)





Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get
the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering.
The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the
most efficient way to make a corner...

You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw
out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking
about...

Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will
say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner
better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip
the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle
of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)...
Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as
much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees...

But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering
all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be
"racing" on the street anyway


Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb
Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the
last turn I ever made.



At the same time there's this.. I looked for a while for one of these
bikes "countersteering" but they are all doing what I said we do

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch

....even on the street... Again, if you are countersteering you are
scrubbing off forward thrust, sideways and off the radius (inside) of
the turn....

On 2/12/14, 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 1:09 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
On 2/12/14, 10:02 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 12:38 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 12:12:22 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/12/2014 12:03 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:40 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:38:48 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:20 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:33:01 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 10:06 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:42 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:06:41 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
__ says...

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/











Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but
this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers, with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could* have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html





No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

Just like a motor cycle, you just lean into the turn to make
it go
that way.

No, leaning doesn't make it turn. Leaning enables the
motorcycle
to be
kept more vertical when
turning. Pushing on the handlebar makes you turn. Push left, go
left.
Push right, go right.
Countersteering.


Heh. I just mentioned to Scott about that. Those who don't
ride
will
think it's weird. They think it should turn like a car.



Yes, counter steering but again, it's not the fastest way around
the
corner

It's the only way around the corner, at speed, on a motorcycle.


No it's not.... if you are countersteering, your drive wheel is way
outside the most efficient line and needs to come back before you
can
get traction and get out of the corner...

You countersteer to get the bike to lean, once leaned you can
skid on
around. But, you first have to
get the turn started.


Trust me, .01 seconds coming in and going out...Way too much
sideways,
not enough forward.... Look, I put the stopwatch to this **** every
day,
I trained my daughter to corner "as good as any body in the
division"...
But I am not gonna' argue any more with it.

Let me take it one step further... I get what you are saying Dick but
that's old school... we now "get the turn started" by drawing slightly
on the front brake and using throttle (not brakes) to break away the
back end. Now I can "get into the corner" without spending all that
time
(.003 seconds??) wobbling back and fourth instead of going
forward... I
know it seems like a tiny thing, but again, the secret I just told you
is "very new school" and Jess was one of the first to embrace it three
years ago..... It works, period. I saw her corner circles around a WMA
pro a few weeks back... Jaws dropped for sure...

Fine. You're dirt riding and sliding, without leaning for the turn.
You're not really 'steering'
through the turn but sliding through the turn. However, if she's
turning left and she leans the bike
to the left, she did it by countersteering.


Ok, guess we won't see eye to eye. I think of counter steering as
turning left, with the bars slightly right.... Either way, here's
another thing to take into consideration... "New School" is to steer
with the back end, not the front end anyway
If the bike is leaning, you are not going straight. Unless you turn the
front wheel. Leaning the bike, changes angles. Think like trying to
make a cone roll in a straight line. leaning the bike, inplies a cone
shape.

Yup, and rolling a cone with a small end on the left will turn left..
even for a while if one side loses "some" traction.. At some point
however if you lose too much traction on one side the cone would roll
right or have to be "counter steered".. At that point, forward force
degrades... I gotta' find that video...
It will never 'roll right'. It may slide, but it will not roll.

On 2/12/14, 1:46 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__

wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/


















Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but
this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html







No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't
look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't
move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side
or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just
sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever
try
this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar
forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right*
handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in
breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun
however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of
forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the
suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around
the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you
are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and
the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the
corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have
that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it
back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?



Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape
again. :-)





Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get
the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering.
The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the
most efficient way to make a corner...

You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw
out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking
about...

Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will
say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner
better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip
the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle
of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)...
Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as
much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees...

But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering
all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be
"racing" on the street anyway


Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb
Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the
last turn I ever made.



Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer
slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though It was half the
weight of your bike too...
Hell, no wonder I did not win every race with my Vette. I was drifting
corners at times. The old Laguna Course, turn 2 was always able to go
faster than you figured as the apex of the corner started up hill.
Loading the suspension and increasing traction. Turn 3 was a very
highspeed turn and you drifted it at about 130 mph.

On 2/12/2014 4:57 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
On 2/12/14, 1:46 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__

wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6,
F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/



















Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but
this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html








No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating
'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't
look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor
wouldn't
move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one
side
or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just
sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever
try
this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar
forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right*
handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in
breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun
however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of
forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the
suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around
the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If
you
are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high,
and
the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the
corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have
that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it
back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?



Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the
other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape
again. :-)





Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get
the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering.
The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the
most efficient way to make a corner...

You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw
out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking
about...

Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will
say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner
better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip
the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle
of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a
tricycle)...
Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length
by as
much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10
degrees...

But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering
all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be
"racing" on the street anyway


Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb
Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the
last turn I ever made.



Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer
slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though It was half the
weight of your bike too...
Hell, no wonder I did not win every race with my Vette. I was drifting
corners at times. The old Laguna Course, turn 2 was always able to go
faster than you figured as the apex of the corner started up hill.
Loading the suspension and increasing traction. Turn 3 was a very
highspeed turn and you drifted it at about 130 mph.

Sure... if that's what the corner is for or if it's a tight radius...

On 2/12/2014 4:57 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
On 2/12/14, 1:46 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__

wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H.
wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim

wrote:



On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6,
F.O.A.D.
wrote:

I'd love to have one of these...







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA





how about something like this?



http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/



















Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war.

"Goose" probably tries something like that too, but
this is
French,
and the French at that time were known to be great
tinkerers,
with
results to match.

Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi
*could*
have
made during the war. Something
like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4



Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating
content)

http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html








No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster.

That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating
'eyeball
sensormatic rotational assist'. Where
you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't
look at
women
when operating this vessel."

Sometimes the sign gets torn away.



When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp
outboard.
I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor
wouldn't
move,
sit
in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one
side
or the
other. Worked fine in large ponds.



Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a
motorcycle
and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just
sayin'.


No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever
try
this?

Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar
forward
gently
and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right*
handlebar.



Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in
breaking
loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun
however, if
you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of
forward

Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the
suspension
or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around
the
track...

What is the fastest way around the track?


Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If
you
are
countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high,
and
the
drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the
corner. In
racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have
that
back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it
back...

How can you be efficient in the corners?



Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the
other.
You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust
from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are
losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust...

Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape
again. :-)





Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get
the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering.
The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the
most efficient way to make a corner...

You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw
out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking
about...

Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will
say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner
better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip
the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle
of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a
tricycle)...
Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length
by as
much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10
degrees...

But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering
all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be
"racing" on the street anyway


Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb
Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the
last turn I ever made.



Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer
slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though It was half the
weight of your bike too...
Hell, no wonder I did not win every race with my Vette. I was drifting
corners at times. The old Laguna Course, turn 2 was always able to go
faster than you figured as the apex of the corner started up hill.
Loading the suspension and increasing traction. Turn 3 was a very
highspeed turn and you drifted it at about 130 mph.

Here's my point... You drifted that corner at 130, scrubbing forward
speed off in the drift... How about I come behind you in a formula racer
that can take the corner without countersteering and breaking traction..
how fast do you think that car might make that corner with all the hp
pushing it forward??