fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

jeff feehan wrote:


well, being "not much (if any) faster" than a keelboat or skiff around
a windward leeward is considered pretty great by most windsurfers
familiar with the problems involved.

Sure. Faster = better ;)
But you still can't pop a beer while windsurfing, or bring a friend.

BTW I have not had a chance to benchmark the speed of these kitesurfers against
any of the boats I sail. From watching them, they seem to prefer reaching back &
forth.


it was only a few years ago - like
maybe 4, that even that would have been imposssible. as you say, windsurfers
are fast on a reach, but they have always been. their good windward/leeward
speed is a relatively new phenomenon, it represents a dramatic performance
increase over trhe last few years.

Well, monohull performance has increased in the past few years too. There are
more controllable rigs, screechers, square tops, improved foil designs, etc etc.
But it seems to me that improvements in windsurfers are more widely distributed
faster than in small fast monohulls. Especially one-design classes, most of which
are actually rather backwards-looking and Luddite.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

Gutass,
You really are behind the curve.
You responded in:
alt.sailing
alt.sailing.asa
rec.windsurfing
And rec.boatsracing (for people that actually compete)
as opposed to rec.boatsracing.power

And - If you are going to include silly motor toys
then the fastest monohull is the Russian KM Ekranoplan at
500+Kph (~270K)


Gustaf wrote:

Dear Sloped A-hole.

This is "rec.boats.racing" NOT "alt.sailing"
Current fastest production mono-hull is Outer Limits 39' with
1400 hp twins and Merc #6 dry-sump drives. 147+ mph

Still has Reggie PO'd


"Harken Ronstan" wrote in message
om...

What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
triangle course these days?

I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

I did a bit of fast reching myself early NewYears day,
and I do windsurf.

-Craig

DSK wrote:
[snip]


In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...


[snip]
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

The Lechner remark isn't exactly accurate, in particular since other Div.II
from that era were considered better (like the Davidson). Moreover, I think
it was tongue in cheek. But still wrong on another level in that in a
steady light wind (9 knots) a FW board will kill any Div.II board around
most any course.

Hey Doug, where are you? Bellsouth gives you away!

--
-Dan
"DSK" wrote in message
...
I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...




The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.



AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the
boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old
heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

DSK wrote in message ...
I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...

So, fact is, the Windsurfer wins the leeward leg of the regular/proper
windward/leeward course with a 30 second spurt. Still won that leg
though.



The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.

Yes your right I'm sure there are faster non-displacement monos
around. But they had a course set and were out there racin so I went
out and joined them.

First year I had my Foumula Board I riged and went out and tried racin
the Tornado's in the Rolex Olympic Class Regatta on Biscayne Bay. I
wasn't even close.
Now I have some better equipment, a bit more skill, and can tune the
stuff better for the conditions.
Had the chance to do a side by side with a couple of Tornados out
tuning last month. It was no problem to pull away from them this
time. But this wasn't a race.


AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

Steep chop like on Biscayne Bay does slow the windsurfer down. Still
not slower than the sailboat.

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.

whonositflosit
Fesstoosn- Brian

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

brian wrote:

What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.

whonositflosit
Fesstoosn- Brian

depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
10 kts - 12 would be safer.

the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.

jeff feehan

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

brian wrote:
What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.

There used to be an annual race that was a challenge among all
one-design classes, but it died out before windsurfers caught on. The
problem I see is that the hot windsurfers (at least the ones I'm
familiar with) aren't really one-design at all, they mix-n-match boards,
gear, sails in all kinds of variations. Obviously there should be a
completely open class which might include giant proas, hydrofoils, kite
boards, etc etc.

BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds 10 knots,
you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
winds of less than 3 knots.






jeff feehan wrote:
depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
10 kts - 12 would be safer.

What about a maximum?



the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.

It's even more dramatic with a hydrofoiler. But you can see why some of
us are a bit amused by the way some windsurfers (obviously not *all*)
claim a blanket superiority. Must be an ego thing.

Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

Doug and everyone else,
Give it a try. The newer wide style boards dating back four or five
years are an eye opener. You won't get wet (as often), as 1 meter wide
boards are 1) very stable and 2) there is a lot of deck to land on. They
plane off incredibly easily, even (especially) for the +42 inch
waistband crowd (I treat my own gut as movable ballast). They can be
sailed sitting down (somewhere there is a photo of Brian "The Dog"
Cunningham sailing his Start sitting in a lawn chair) and some come with
a beer locker (well the Exocet Cruiser has a cubby big enough for one
can) They also sail fully planning at very high upwind (and Downwind)
angles and thanks to refined rocker lines, give up very little to
traditional narrow shapes on reaches. Modern windsurfing sails are
another wonder. Since we can't reef our sails, or change them without
coming in, borrowing some of the sail shaping hardware from real boats
added to intensive design work by our sailmakers has produced incredibly
well shaped, extremely stable rigs with working wind ranges twice what
they used to be. All in all this new user friendly stuff has
revolutionized Windsurfing, it's a blast, a welcome breath of fresh air
in a sport that was stagnating.
Ray


DSK wrote:

brian wrote:

What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.


There used to be an annual race that was a challenge among all
one-design classes, but it died out before windsurfers caught on. The
problem I see is that the hot windsurfers (at least the ones I'm
familiar with) aren't really one-design at all, they mix-n-match boards,
gear, sails in all kinds of variations. Obviously there should be a
completely open class which might include giant proas, hydrofoils, kite
boards, etc etc.

BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds 10 knots,
you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
winds of less than 3 knots.




jeff feehan wrote:
depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
10 kts - 12 would be safer.


What about a maximum?



the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.


It's even more dramatic with a hydrofoiler. But you can see why some of
us are a bit amused by the way some windsurfers (obviously not *all*)
claim a blanket superiority. Must be an ego thing.

Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

DSK wrote:

brian wrote:

What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.


There used to be an annual race that was a challenge among all
one-design classes, but it died out before windsurfers caught on. The
problem I see is that the hot windsurfers (at least the ones I'm
familiar with) aren't really one-design at all, they mix-n-match boards,
gear, sails in all kinds of variations. Obviously there should be a
completely open class which might include giant proas, hydrofoils, kite
boards, etc etc.

BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds 10 knots,
you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
winds of less than 3 knots.

and, if you wanted to give a prize for the "least comfortable" boat around
the course, the thistle would probably win that too.

well, of course, for different windspeeds, different boats would win.

but, i would bet that if you set a windward/leeward course somewhere
with generally breezy conditions, and ran a contest that lasted, say,
several months - a formula windsurfer would win the overall prize for
fastest time around the course. i doubt that any skiffs, cats, a.c. boats,
or anything else would be as fast.

somehow, the prize for fastest time seems more desireable than one
for a particular wind range - to me at least.



Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.


with respect to windward/leeward performance in moderate windspeeds, the
gear has improved quite considerably in the last few years - i would say
the new gear is revolutionary. i also race dinghys and keelboats, and i
so i would say my opinion is an informed one. in light winds, say under
8kts, the performance gain isn't so big - 10 year old boards still win
in these conditions.

jeff feehan



jeff feehan wrote:
depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
10 kts - 12 would be safer.


What about a maximum?



the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.


It's even more dramatic with a hydrofoiler. But you can see why some of
us are a bit amused by the way some windsurfers (obviously not *all*)
claim a blanket superiority. Must be an ego thing.

Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
 

Harken Ronstan wrote:

What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
triangle course these days?

I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

In light winds (under maybe 6 or 7 knots) AC type boats (long, narrow
keel yacht) are probabely fastest. A little more wind and i would
consider racing skiffs. Even more (12 knots and up) and Formula
Windsurfing gear has chances. But ultimately fastest are probabely big
(semi)planing racing yachts like the Open 60s or even bigger beasts.
Wasn't there a thread about a 150ft racing monohull shattering some
record a while back? Of course these boats aren't readily available to
most of us...
--
Wolfgang