|
Thank you so much...
....former President Bush and former Vice President Cheney:
KBR Tells U.S. Army it will Cost $500 Million and Take 13 Years to Close out Its Iraq Contract The recipient of the largest government services contract in U.S. history has told military officials it will take another 13 years and half a billion dollars to finish off its work stemming from the Iraq war. This assessment from KBR Inc., which won the $38 billion deal from the U.S. Army way back in 2001, is at the heart of a legal battle between the two sides. KBR was responsible for aiding virtually all American military support operations as part of the Logistics Civil Augmentation Program (LOGCAP) III in Iraq. With the conflict over and the pullout of combat units, the Pentagon sought to alter the terms of payment for the remainder of the contract. U.S. Defense Department officials want to pay KBR a fixed amount for what’s left to do (which could save it hundreds of millions of dollars), while the company wants to be reimbursed for its efforts, which has been the case since the deal was arranged last decade. The Army’s move to implement the change prompted KBR to sue in court, where its lawyers argued that the remaining duties will cost $500 million and take 13 years to complete. Emails exchanged between the two sides were presented as part of the litigation, allowing Charles Tiefer, professor of government contracting at the University of Baltimore and a member of the Commission on Wartime Contracting, to review them. His take on the communications? “The emails show things have gotten very nasty between KBR and the Defense Department,” Tiefer told the Federal Times. “The emails show that the Defense Department, in its dealings with KBR, feels like it’s wrestling with a giant python,” he added. “The kind of willingness to work with KBR that you saw for a number of years during the Iraq War has completely gone.” - - - Wow. KBR ought to go into the banking and stock brokerage business... |
Thank you so much...
|
Thank you so much...
|
Thank you so much...
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/17/13 8:04 AM, Eisboch wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/16/13 11:20 PM, wrote: The thing most people don't know or chose to ignore is that our withdrawal from Iraq was only the DoD people. We left 20,000-30,000 "contractors" there to do what the military was doing. It is good for the government because dead contractors don't come home to Dover in flag draped coffins. It is not any cheaper tho. I suppose the real question is whether we have any reason to be there in the first place. Many of the "contractors" are in Iraq because of greed, and nothing more. If they come home dead, it is because they were willing to take the risk for the money. I doubt most uniformed military personnel joined up because of the money. ---------------------------------------------------------- I continue to find it incredulous that so many people or businesses engaged in providing a service or product for profit is doing so due to "greed" according to you. The goal of any person or business should be to earn more money than they spend. In personal finances, the extra can be applied to improvements in life style, education of family members and a nest egg for retirement. In business it affords growth, expansion, higher employment and job security. Some do it better than others, but without profits, we all may as well let the government define what standard of living is allowed, what education we receive, what health care is enough and what is a socially acceptable retirement income. Maybe that's your idea of utopia, but it's certainly not mine. The topic started out with an example of how a private contractor was trying to screw the federal government out of billions of dollars. "Greed" would be a mild descriptor. It then devolved to the "contractors" who went to Iraq to make more money than they could guarding buildings than they could at home, and how some of those non-military personnel are getting killed. My comment was that these non-military contractors were there for the big bucks, and that getting killed was part of their equation. That's a lot different than the motivation for a typical soldier, who isn't enlisting for "the big bucks." ------------------------------------------------------------- My point is that how a person or private contractor earns money is their business as long as it's lawful. Obviously a contract with the government was involved. If you feel the contractors are "greedy" maybe the fault lies with whatever government agency signed the contract. Personally, if I were to consider going to Iraq as a private contractor for hire and risk my life, I'd only do it for BIG bucks. But I wouldn't do it. You couldn't pay me enough. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/13 8:34 AM, Eisboch wrote:
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/17/13 8:04 AM, Eisboch wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/16/13 11:20 PM, wrote: The thing most people don't know or chose to ignore is that our withdrawal from Iraq was only the DoD people. We left 20,000-30,000 "contractors" there to do what the military was doing. It is good for the government because dead contractors don't come home to Dover in flag draped coffins. It is not any cheaper tho. I suppose the real question is whether we have any reason to be there in the first place. Many of the "contractors" are in Iraq because of greed, and nothing more. If they come home dead, it is because they were willing to take the risk for the money. I doubt most uniformed military personnel joined up because of the money. ---------------------------------------------------------- I continue to find it incredulous that so many people or businesses engaged in providing a service or product for profit is doing so due to "greed" according to you. The goal of any person or business should be to earn more money than they spend. In personal finances, the extra can be applied to improvements in life style, education of family members and a nest egg for retirement. In business it affords growth, expansion, higher employment and job security. Some do it better than others, but without profits, we all may as well let the government define what standard of living is allowed, what education we receive, what health care is enough and what is a socially acceptable retirement income. Maybe that's your idea of utopia, but it's certainly not mine. The topic started out with an example of how a private contractor was trying to screw the federal government out of billions of dollars. "Greed" would be a mild descriptor. It then devolved to the "contractors" who went to Iraq to make more money than they could guarding buildings than they could at home, and how some of those non-military personnel are getting killed. My comment was that these non-military contractors were there for the big bucks, and that getting killed was part of their equation. That's a lot different than the motivation for a typical soldier, who isn't enlisting for "the big bucks." ------------------------------------------------------------- My point is that how a person or private contractor earns money is their business as long as it's lawful. Obviously a contract with the government was involved. If you feel the contractors are "greedy" maybe the fault lies with whatever government agency signed the contract. Personally, if I were to consider going to Iraq as a private contractor for hire and risk my life, I'd only do it for BIG bucks. But I wouldn't do it. You couldn't pay me enough. I think the government ought to terminate the contract with KBR on 90 days notice, and let the contractors sue. Screw 'em. As for the private guards who go to Iraq for the big bucks, as I stated, they are going there for the money and if they get killed, it isn't as if they were military volunteers who went there. I don't feel a sense of loss or sorrow for the moneygrubbing paramilitary types if they come home in a box. |
Thank you so much...
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/17/13 8:34 AM, Eisboch wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/17/13 8:04 AM, Eisboch wrote: "F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/16/13 11:20 PM, wrote: The thing most people don't know or chose to ignore is that our withdrawal from Iraq was only the DoD people. We left 20,000-30,000 "contractors" there to do what the military was doing. It is good for the government because dead contractors don't come home to Dover in flag draped coffins. It is not any cheaper tho. I suppose the real question is whether we have any reason to be there in the first place. Many of the "contractors" are in Iraq because of greed, and nothing more. If they come home dead, it is because they were willing to take the risk for the money. I doubt most uniformed military personnel joined up because of the money. ---------------------------------------------------------- I continue to find it incredulous that so many people or businesses engaged in providing a service or product for profit is doing so due to "greed" according to you. The goal of any person or business should be to earn more money than they spend. In personal finances, the extra can be applied to improvements in life style, education of family members and a nest egg for retirement. In business it affords growth, expansion, higher employment and job security. Some do it better than others, but without profits, we all may as well let the government define what standard of living is allowed, what education we receive, what health care is enough and what is a socially acceptable retirement income. Maybe that's your idea of utopia, but it's certainly not mine. The topic started out with an example of how a private contractor was trying to screw the federal government out of billions of dollars. "Greed" would be a mild descriptor. It then devolved to the "contractors" who went to Iraq to make more money than they could guarding buildings than they could at home, and how some of those non-military personnel are getting killed. My comment was that these non-military contractors were there for the big bucks, and that getting killed was part of their equation. That's a lot different than the motivation for a typical soldier, who isn't enlisting for "the big bucks." ------------------------------------------------------------- My point is that how a person or private contractor earns money is their business as long as it's lawful. Obviously a contract with the government was involved. If you feel the contractors are "greedy" maybe the fault lies with whatever government agency signed the contract. Personally, if I were to consider going to Iraq as a private contractor for hire and risk my life, I'd only do it for BIG bucks. But I wouldn't do it. You couldn't pay me enough. I think the government ought to terminate the contract with KBR on 90 days notice, and let the contractors sue. Screw 'em. As for the private guards who go to Iraq for the big bucks, as I stated, they are going there for the money and if they get killed, it isn't as if they were military volunteers who went there. I don't feel a sense of loss or sorrow for the moneygrubbing paramilitary types if they come home in a box. ----------------------------------- Interesting. Many of the paramilitary types are former military types who can't find employment back at home. I'd have a sense of sorrow for anyone who got killed trying to do their job. As for KBR contracts, most major government contracts have termination clauses in them. I used to deal with them in both direct government contracts and in contracts with major defense contractors like Raytheon, Lockheed and others. The termination clauses are typically not negotiable as they are structured for the convenience of the government. Heck, even a simple thing like my military obligation was extended for two months beyond my "contract" for "the convenience of the government". I wasn't too happy about that but there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. So, it works both ways. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/13 8:53 AM, Eisboch wrote:
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message I think the government ought to terminate the contract with KBR on 90 days notice, and let the contractors sue. Screw 'em. As for the private guards who go to Iraq for the big bucks, as I stated, they are going there for the money and if they get killed, it isn't as if they were military volunteers who went there. I don't feel a sense of loss or sorrow for the moneygrubbing paramilitary types if they come home in a box. ----------------------------------- Interesting. Many of the paramilitary types are former military types who can't find employment back at home. I'd have a sense of sorrow for anyone who got killed trying to do their job. I'd of course feel a loss if and when these paramilitary contractors were engaged in humanitarian efforts, such as guarding a convoy of supplies heading to a clinic, or a convoy of food heading to a village. or guarding a hospital. |
Thank you so much...
|
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/13 10:42 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2013 06:57:25 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/16/13 11:20 PM, wrote: The thing most people don't know or chose to ignore is that our withdrawal from Iraq was only the DoD people. We left 20,000-30,000 "contractors" there to do what the military was doing. It is good for the government because dead contractors don't come home to Dover in flag draped coffins. It is not any cheaper tho. I suppose the real question is whether we have any reason to be there in the first place. Many of the "contractors" are in Iraq because of greed, and nothing more. If they come home dead, it is because they were willing to take the risk for the money. I doubt most uniformed military personnel joined up because of the money. greed? now being paid is greed? People join the military for the same reason they become firemen, police or teachers. It is a job they can get with their qualifications. They become contractors because the pay is a bit better usually because of their military training. If folks like you had not ended the draft, we would not need contract soldiers. I didn't end the draft. The draft was terminated during a Republican administration. I protested the war against Vietnam, but never the draft. |
Thank you so much...
|
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/2013 12:02 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 5/17/13 10:42 AM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 06:57:25 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/16/13 11:20 PM, wrote: The thing most people don't know or chose to ignore is that our withdrawal from Iraq was only the DoD people. We left 20,000-30,000 "contractors" there to do what the military was doing. It is good for the government because dead contractors don't come home to Dover in flag draped coffins. It is not any cheaper tho. I suppose the real question is whether we have any reason to be there in the first place. Many of the "contractors" are in Iraq because of greed, and nothing more. If they come home dead, it is because they were willing to take the risk for the money. I doubt most uniformed military personnel joined up because of the money. greed? now being paid is greed? People join the military for the same reason they become firemen, police or teachers. It is a job they can get with their qualifications. They become contractors because the pay is a bit better usually because of their military training. If folks like you had not ended the draft, we would not need contract soldiers. I didn't end the draft. The draft was terminated during a Republican administration. I protested the war against Vietnam, but never the draft. In what manner did you protest? |
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/13 12:35 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:02:44 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/17/13 10:42 AM, wrote: If folks like you had not ended the draft, we would not need contract soldiers. I didn't end the draft. The draft was terminated during a Republican administration. I protested the war against Vietnam, but never the draft. My mistake. I was sure you were against the draft or just about anything else military. So you agree, we should reinstate the draft. If we had that much conscripted labor in the military, we could get away from most, if not all, of the contracting. I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I don't have much use for the military "establishment" because of its self-perpetuating nature, its affinity for war, and the weak-wristed way it cares for the short and long term needs of those who are injured. War creates billets for officer and NCO promotions and opportunities for profiteering by defense contractor establishments. My disdain for the establishments, however, doesn't mean I lack respect for honorable individuals who wear the uniform and risk their necks. |
Thank you so much...
In article ,
says... On Fri, 17 May 2013 11:48:42 -0400, iBoaterer wrote: They are attempting to do that sort of thing, along with trying to maintain peace in a place that has been on the edge of civil war for a decade. I suppose we could just get pout but if we do that we should do it everywhere in the middle east and let the big dog eat. I doubt Israel would last long tho ... at least without starting a nuclear war. If not for oil, I have no idea why we'd try to change the middle east to a Christian society. Imagine what would happen in this country if a massive military came here and said, hey, we don't like your religion, so from now on, we want you to be Hindus. I don't how of any attempt to convert the people of the middle east to christianity' Cite that. If anything we are propping up Judaism. Our involvement there has more to do with Israel than Oil. If it was just Oil we would have invaded Nigeria or Venezuela where we get a lot more oil. WTF do you think an "American type of democracy" would be??? http://tinyurl.com/6ofbm2c http://tinyurl.com/6e9ao4 |
Thank you so much...
|
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/13 3:23 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 17 May 2013 14:41:48 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. A military training program goes a lot faster than that. The difference is the slow pokes get kicked out of the program and get to do a more menial job. That is not the union way. There is the objective of limiting the number of journeymen to artificially keep labor costs high. Your knowledge of the skilled trade apprenticeship programs is not up to snuff. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/2013 12:02 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote: I didn't end the draft. The draft was terminated during a Republican administration. I protested the war against Vietnam, but never the draft. --------------------------------------------- I have a question that might be difficult to answer objectively, given the years that have transpired. You have mentioned before that you had a high draft number which was never called. I assume at the time you were a young man in his late teens, more likely in your early 20's. Had your number been called, would you have reported as ordered? Not how you feel now .... how you felt then. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/17/13 4:32 PM, Eisboch wrote:
On 5/17/2013 12:02 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote: I didn't end the draft. The draft was terminated during a Republican administration. I protested the war against Vietnam, but never the draft. --------------------------------------------- I have a question that might be difficult to answer objectively, given the years that have transpired. You have mentioned before that you had a high draft number which was never called. I assume at the time you were a young man in his late teens, more likely in your early 20's. Had your number been called, would you have reported as ordered? Not how you feel now .... how you felt then. Absolutely, I would have reported for a pre-induction physical and if I were judged proper cannon fodder, I would have been in the Army, I guess. But I was never called, even though all the years I was of draft age, I regularly sent my draft board a registered, return receipt letter informing it of my current status and address. My problem wasn't with the draft, it was with the moronic war against the Vietnamese people. Most young men of draft age were not drafted. |
Thank you so much...
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/17/13 4:32 PM, Eisboch wrote: On 5/17/2013 12:02 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote: I didn't end the draft. The draft was terminated during a Republican administration. I protested the war against Vietnam, but never the draft. --------------------------------------------- I have a question that might be difficult to answer objectively, given the years that have transpired. You have mentioned before that you had a high draft number which was never called. I assume at the time you were a young man in his late teens, more likely in your early 20's. Had your number been called, would you have reported as ordered? Not how you feel now .... how you felt then. Absolutely, I would have reported for a pre-induction physical and if I were judged proper cannon fodder, I would have been in the Army, I guess. But I was never called, even though all the years I was of draft age, I regularly sent my draft board a registered, return receipt letter informing it of my current status and address. My problem wasn't with the draft, it was with the moronic war against the Vietnamese people. Most young men of draft age were not drafted. --------------------------------------------------------- Thanks. Most of us felt that way at the time. Hindsight over the years may change one's views but at the time it was the honorable thing to do. I almost got drafted. Well, actually I guess I did. But at the advice of a retired Navy Captain, I beat feet down to the Navy recruiter's office. Signed up and was told to "burn" my draft notice letter and card if I so desired. I saved them for years but are now long lost. |
Thank you so much...
|
Thank you so much...
|
Thank you so much...
In article ,
says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! |
Thank you so much...
On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. |
Thank you so much...
In article ,
says... On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. I've been around heavy construction all of my life, and I know hundreds of people in civil/infrastructure work and unless they are an engineer, or some other professional, they learned their trade by working their way up, I know of not one single person who went into an apprenticeship program to do such. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/18/13 12:35 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article , says... On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. I've been around heavy construction all of my life, and I know hundreds of people in civil/infrastructure work and unless they are an engineer, or some other professional, they learned their trade by working their way up, I know of not one single person who went into an apprenticeship program to do such. Which has nothing to do with my outline of how union apprenticeship programs work. |
Thank you so much...
On May 18, 11:06*am, "F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem |
Thank you so much...
On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote:
On May 18, 11:06 am, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. And your neighbor's experience still does not relate to the apprenticeship program. The "son" must have had some skills, enough to fake it for a while. In my local, if you claim to have the skills of a journeyman, you report to the training facility to prove it. If you have some skills, the local might let you in as an "improver," and then retest you after training and time on the job. The per diem part interests me. In my local, if you have to travel to work, that's on you, not on the contractor. |
Thank you so much...
On Sat, 18 May 2013 14:24:36 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:
The per diem part interests me. In my local, if you have to travel to work, that's on you, not on the contractor. === In 1965 I had a unionized (CWA) summer job that paid $12 per diem. That was considered big money in those days and it was tax free. With the per diem and 16 hours/week of overtime I thought I was in fat city. In addition to living well all summer, I went back to college that fall with a car, a bunch of new clothes, and a decent checking account. |
Thank you so much...
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. -------------------------------------------------- Harry, I think you missed a lot in your life due to your limited experience with what qualifies people in trade careers. You obviously are fluent in union programs but there are many other ways for trades people to obtain knowledge, expertise, experience, decent jobs and fulfilling careers without being tied to a union for support. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/18/13 5:40 PM, Eisboch wrote:
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. -------------------------------------------------- Harry, I think you missed a lot in your life due to your limited experience with what qualifies people in trade careers. You obviously are fluent in union programs but there are many other ways for trades people to obtain knowledge, expertise, experience, decent jobs and fulfilling careers without being tied to a union for support. I've never claimed you had to go through a union apprenticeship program to have a career in the building trades. |
Thank you so much...
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote: That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. ----------------------------------------------------- Hoo Boy. Here we go. Union businesses are not as corrupt as non-union businesses? Please Harry, that's just too much. I think you need to remember that well over 70 percent of active and successful trades people are non - union. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/18/13 5:50 PM, Eisboch wrote:
"F.O.A.D." wrote in message m... On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote: That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. ----------------------------------------------------- Hoo Boy. Here we go. Union businesses are not as corrupt as non-union businesses? Please Harry, that's just too much. I think you need to remember that well over 70 percent of active and successful trades people are non - union. The amount of financial corruption in local and international unions wouldn't even register on a scale that measures corporate financial corruption. Further, anyone with access to funds in a union has to be bonded, and if any monkey business takes place, the bonding company pushes hard and gets criminal prosecutions. I am not saying there aren't corrupt union officials, but they are pikers compared to the corporationists and banksters. |
Thank you so much...
On May 18, 1:24*pm, "F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 11:06 am, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. And your neighbor's experience still does not relate to the apprenticeship program. The "son" must have had some skills, enough to fake it for a while. In my local, if you claim to have the skills of a journeyman, you report to the training facility to prove it. If you have some skills, the local might let you in as an "improver," and then retest you after training and time on the job. Not to build metal scaffolds in a power plant. it's like an over grown erector set. You slide it together and attach bolts with a special wrench. The per diem part interests me. In my local, if you have to travel to work, that's on you, not on the contractor. Anything over 150 mi. you get the per diem including a motel room for the week. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/18/13 11:27 PM, Tim wrote:
On May 18, 1:24 pm, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 11:06 am, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. And your neighbor's experience still does not relate to the apprenticeship program. The "son" must have had some skills, enough to fake it for a while. In my local, if you claim to have the skills of a journeyman, you report to the training facility to prove it. If you have some skills, the local might let you in as an "improver," and then retest you after training and time on the job. Not to build metal scaffolds in a power plant. it's like an over grown erector set. You slide it together and attach bolts with a special wrench. The per diem part interests me. In my local, if you have to travel to work, that's on you, not on the contractor. Anything over 150 mi. you get the per diem including a motel room for the week. Oh. My mistake. I thought the kid had some real skills. |
Thank you so much...
On May 19, 5:58*am, "F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 5/18/13 11:27 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 1:24 pm, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 11:06 am, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. And your neighbor's experience still does not relate to the apprenticeship program. The "son" must have had some skills, enough to fake it for a while. In my local, if you claim to have the skills of a journeyman, you report to the training facility to prove it. If you have some skills, the local might let you in as an "improver," and then retest you after training and time on the job. Not to build metal scaffolds in a power plant. it's like an over grown erector set. You slide it together and attach bolts with a special wrench. The per diem part interests me. In my local, if you have to travel to work, that's on you, not on the contractor. Anything over 150 mi. you get the per diem including a motel room for the week. Oh. My mistake. I thought the kid had some real skills. Oh no. he actually doesn't. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/19/13 7:04 AM, Tim wrote:
On May 19, 5:58 am, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 11:27 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 1:24 pm, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 11:06 am, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. And your neighbor's experience still does not relate to the apprenticeship program. The "son" must have had some skills, enough to fake it for a while. In my local, if you claim to have the skills of a journeyman, you report to the training facility to prove it. If you have some skills, the local might let you in as an "improver," and then retest you after training and time on the job. Not to build metal scaffolds in a power plant. it's like an over grown erector set. You slide it together and attach bolts with a special wrench. The per diem part interests me. In my local, if you have to travel to work, that's on you, not on the contractor. Anything over 150 mi. you get the per diem including a motel room for the week. Oh. My mistake. I thought the kid had some real skills. Oh no. he actually doesn't. Well, then, he isn't getting much work as a traditonal carpenter, I bet. |
Thank you so much...
On 5/19/2013 6:58 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 5/18/13 11:27 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 1:24 pm, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 2:13 PM, Tim wrote: On May 18, 11:06 am, "F.O.A.D." wrote: On 5/18/13 10:35 AM, iBoaterer wrote: In article , says... On 5/17/13 1:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2013 12:45:13 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote: I favor two years of universal service. That could be fulfilled in the military or in other ways deemed important by society. I agree 100%. In fact it could really just be a year in some programs but it should be based on a military model of discipline and responsibility. If for no other reason, I liked the military because it made me a better student. I went from being the "do enough to get by" guy I was in high school to a guy who wanted to be at the top of my class at everything I did. The military schools make that a thing worth doing, Maybe this could also encompass an apprenticeship program if the thrust of your "service" was in patching up our crumbling infrastructure. (a worthwhile objective) The problem is, you could never get this by the unions. It takes more than a year in an apprenticeship program to learn the sort of skills necessary to do most heavy and highway, aka, infrastructure, work. Most of the skilled unions offer three to five year apprenticeships, half classroom and half work on the job under supervision. Absolute newcomers usually go through a 12-week job corps center with union instructors so the students can learn proper job skills, safety procedures and discipline. Horse****! Sorry, but that is exactly how the apprenticeship program works in most of the skilled building trades. That is, unless you're like my neighbors son who bought his Carpenters Union card. He greased the right palm with 'x' amount of bucks and went to work the next week earning $28, an hr. plus overtime and $90. perdiem It happens, but not often, but, hey, all the union corruption since the beginning of unions in this country doesn't add up to the level of corruption in the corporate world. And your neighbor's experience still does not relate to the apprenticeship program. The "son" must have had some skills, enough to fake it for a while. In my local, if you claim to have the skills of a journeyman, you report to the training facility to prove it. If you have some skills, the local might let you in as an "improver," and then retest you after training and time on the job. Not to build metal scaffolds in a power plant. it's like an over grown erector set. You slide it together and attach bolts with a special wrench. The per diem part interests me. In my local, if you have to travel to work, that's on you, not on the contractor. Anything over 150 mi. you get the per diem including a motel room for the week. Oh. My mistake. I thought the kid had some real skills. Like what? Cleaning out boilers? Or installing Lug nuts. |
Thank you so much...
In article , says...
In article , says... On Fri, 17 May 2013 11:48:42 -0400, iBoaterer wrote: They are attempting to do that sort of thing, along with trying to maintain peace in a place that has been on the edge of civil war for a decade. I suppose we could just get pout but if we do that we should do it everywhere in the middle east and let the big dog eat. I doubt Israel would last long tho ... at least without starting a nuclear war. If not for oil, I have no idea why we'd try to change the middle east to a Christian society. Imagine what would happen in this country if a massive military came here and said, hey, we don't like your religion, so from now on, we want you to be Hindus. I don't how of any attempt to convert the people of the middle east to christianity' Cite that. If anything we are propping up Judaism. Our involvement there has more to do with Israel than Oil. If it was just Oil we would have invaded Nigeria or Venezuela where we get a lot more oil. WTF do you think an "American type of democracy" would be??? http://tinyurl.com/6ofbm2c http://tinyurl.com/6e9ao4 You don't like represenative government, where the elected should be beholden to their constituients? |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:08 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com