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-   -   Speaking of ethanol... (https://www.boatbanter.com/general/156916-speaking-ethanol.html)

iBoaterer[_3_] April 27th 13 09:33 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
In article ,
says...

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:08:05 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 13:19:15 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

They have seafoam just about anywhere that handles oil, auto parts or
boat stuff around here.
It is supposed to be some kind of miracle potion.
I have never had it fix anything.

It's purpose isn't to fix mechanical failures, so that's probably why
you haven't had it fix any.

This was hyped as some magic elixir that "Safely helps quiet noisy
lifters, helps remove fuel deposits and oil residue, helps smooth
rough idle". They say it cleans injectors, removes varnish and gum

I have not noticed it doing anything.

It is basically just light machine oil, naphtha and isopropanol that
they sell for $65 a gallon or more

How would you notice if it was removing varnish and gum? Yes, it is made
up of chemical compounds but that doesn't mean that it's not a good
product.

I just said it didn't fix anything.
My rough running motors are still the same after running seafoam for a
while., If it is removing gum and deposits, they are deposits that
were not hurting anything.

This crap is sold the same way they sell fishing lures, golf clubs and
marital aids. If you think they work, they work.

I use it to clean carb parts and works fantastically for it, so I DO
know that it removes varnish and gum.

Boating All Out April 27th 13 09:56 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
In article ,
says...

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:02:52 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Or keep the tank topped off
when idle for long periods.


Why topped off? Ethanol will phase separate no matter how full the
tank is. You just start the season with a whole tank of bad gas.

Phase separation can only occur when the ethanol reaches its water
saturation point. So you've basically got water in your gas.
With no ethanol the water still separates, sinking to low spots.
But quicker and probably worse in terms of corrosion.
Ethanol will keep water in suspension until saturation.
Even when phase separated the water is held in suspension by the
ethanol. I don't know the corrosion effects of that mix, but it easy to
guess it depends on the materials, and might be less than pure water.
The key is to keep water out of the gas. Assuming you didn't buy
watered gas, it gets in the vented gas tank by condensation out of air
onto the tanks sides, and maybe the gas surface itself.
No air in tank, no condensation. I wouldn't even worry about keeping a
non-vented gas storage jug topped off, unless I lived in a highly humid
area. In fact, I don't worry about gas in vented tanks until it's about
a full 2 years old. Not because of water or "phase separation" either.
The volatiles are lost and it's poor starting/running gas.
The only knock I have with ethanol's use as an oxygenator is the real
possibility of it hiding wet gas, because it can suspend water in the
gas. If not too much the water just gets vaporized in the combustion
chamber.
It used to be cars would stall when there was water in the gas, and
service station tanks were carefully monitored for ANY water.
Now, more of that 4 bucks a gallon you're paying for gas might be for
water.


Earl[_84_] April 28th 13 03:13 AM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 4/27/13 12:50 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 11:01:55 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 4/27/13 10:57 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
 says...


I was back at the lawn equipment parts store this morning, and the
counter guy also suggested a product called "Sea Foam," as something
that preserves gasoline and also does some clean out. Looked it up on
line. I'm going to buy a can at the local auto parts store.

Mower starts fine after I hooked the choke cable up to the right carb
control rod hole. Yes, I put it in the wrong hole. A girl told me
that
once about 50 years ago, and then she slapped me...real hard. Nothing
bad happened this time, except the choke wasn't working. No slaps. :)

If you have a Northern Tool by you they carry Sea Foam.


Local auto parts store had it. I'm not aware of a Northern Tool
anywhere
near here. I think I recall seeing one in Norfolk, but that's hours
away.

They have seafoam just about anywhere that handles oil, auto parts or
boat stuff around here.
It is supposed to be some kind of miracle potion.
I have never had it fix anything.



Perhaps your problems aren't easily fixable? :)

(Hard to resist a straight line like that!)
Dumb.

iBoaterer[_3_] April 28th 13 03:19 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
In article ,
says...

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:56:23 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:02:52 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

Or keep the tank topped off
when idle for long periods.


Why topped off? Ethanol will phase separate no matter how full the
tank is. You just start the season with a whole tank of bad gas.

Phase separation can only occur when the ethanol reaches its water
saturation point. So you've basically got water in your gas.
With no ethanol the water still separates, sinking to low spots.
But quicker and probably worse in terms of corrosion.
Ethanol will keep water in suspension until saturation.
Even when phase separated the water is held in suspension by the
ethanol. I don't know the corrosion effects of that mix, but it easy to
guess it depends on the materials, and might be less than pure water.
The key is to keep water out of the gas. Assuming you didn't buy
watered gas, it gets in the vented gas tank by condensation out of air
onto the tanks sides, and maybe the gas surface itself.
No air in tank, no condensation. I wouldn't even worry about keeping a
non-vented gas storage jug topped off, unless I lived in a highly humid
area. In fact, I don't worry about gas in vented tanks until it's about
a full 2 years old. Not because of water or "phase separation" either.
The volatiles are lost and it's poor starting/running gas.
The only knock I have with ethanol's use as an oxygenator is the real
possibility of it hiding wet gas, because it can suspend water in the
gas. If not too much the water just gets vaporized in the combustion
chamber.
It used to be cars would stall when there was water in the gas, and
service station tanks were carefully monitored for ANY water.
Now, more of that 4 bucks a gallon you're paying for gas might be for
water.


Every problem I have heard about ethanol involved old gas but "old" is
measured in months not years..

True, the same with gas without ethanol.

iBoaterer[_3_] April 28th 13 05:00 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:19:36 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Every problem I have heard about ethanol involved old gas but "old" is
measured in months not years..

True, the same with gas without ethanol.

Ethanol takes a problem that used to occur in years and made it a
problem that occurs in months.
The problem is, ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere, gasoline
doesn't.
In fact that is one way to figure out how much ethanol there is in the
gas. Add water to it, let it settle and measure how much gas is left
compared to where you started..

It certainly doesn't take "years" for gasoline to turn to gummy crap.

iBoaterer[_3_] April 28th 13 05:49 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:00:55 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:19:36 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Every problem I have heard about ethanol involved old gas but "old" is
measured in months not years..

True, the same with gas without ethanol.

Ethanol takes a problem that used to occur in years and made it a
problem that occurs in months.
The problem is, ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere, gasoline
doesn't.
In fact that is one way to figure out how much ethanol there is in the
gas. Add water to it, let it settle and measure how much gas is left
compared to where you started..

It certainly doesn't take "years" for gasoline to turn to gummy crap.

but E-10 can be useless in 2-3 months.

So can gasoline. Unlike crude oil, gasoline is a highly refined product
brewed to a certain chemical composition with very specific
characteristics. One characteristic of gas is volatility, a term used to
describe how easily and under what conditions the gas vaporizes so it
can be efficiently burned in your car's engine.
The most highly volatile components in gasoline also tend to evaporate
over time. As they do, the remaining fuel's volatility and ability to
combust properly degrades. The less volatile the fuel, the less
effectively it burns in your engine. The result is diminished engine
performance. Your engine may still start and run, but it probably won't
run as well

Eisboch[_8_] April 28th 13 05:58 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 


"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
says...


Every problem I have heard about ethanol involved old gas but "old"
is
measured in months not years..

True, the same with gas without ethanol.

--------------------------------

Only as far as oxygenated gas goes .... which is what the ethanol
doped gas is. In the US it has pretty much replaced MTBE as an
oxygenating agent. Gas made 20 years before the introduction of
oxygenated fuel had a much longer shelf life.

You can store it longer in a non-vented container that won't allow
moisture to enter during expansion and contraction, but that's not the
case with cars and boats.

iBoaterer[_3_] April 28th 13 07:13 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
In article ,
says...

"iBoaterer" wrote in message
...

In article ,
 says...


Every problem I have heard about ethanol involved old gas but "old"
is
measured in months not years..

True, the same with gas without ethanol.

--------------------------------

Only as far as oxygenated gas goes .... which is what the ethanol
doped gas is. In the US it has pretty much replaced MTBE as an
oxygenating agent. Gas made 20 years before the introduction of
oxygenated fuel had a much longer shelf life.

You can store it longer in a non-vented container that won't allow
moisture to enter during expansion and contraction, but that's not the
case with cars and boats.

The volatile compounds of the gas (those that make it go POOF!)
evaporate.

Boating All Out April 28th 13 09:33 PM
Speaking of ethanol...
 
In article ,
says...

In article ,
says...


Every problem I have heard about ethanol involved old gas but "old" is
measured in months not years..

True, the same with gas without ethanol.

Nope and yep.
I've run one and a half year old untreated E10 many times with no
issues.
Had to dump some 2 year old weed wacker gas once.
So I measure old in years. Not months. Measure "old" how you want to.
I've seen references that the API (American Petroleum Institute)
recommends storing gas no more than 2 years, but can't find the cite on
the API website. That's gas not treated with "stabilizers."
I've also seen firsthand reports of a guy testing untreated gas stored
in a jerry can for use in his lawnmower. He used the last of it after 8
years and it worked fine. He had a small lawn.
Nearly everything you see about gas going bad fast is from people
pumping "stabilizers." Seems they they add that stuff not because
they've had a problem with "old gas," but because it's "common wisdom."
Everybody has to decide what works for them. I don't live in a humid
area, my equipment is mine, and maybe I'm blessed.
There's 3 common causes of gas going bad:
1. Contamination. Buy uncontaminated gas, and don't contaminate it.
2. Evaporation. Keep your gas in unvented containers.
3. Oxidation. Unvented containers, and keep cool. Heat speeds
oxidation. This is so called "stale" gas. You can easily spot the bad
color if you pour a bit in a clear container before you put it in your
engine. Refineries add anti-oxidants, but if your stored gas is getting
stale, go with an aftermarket additive.
Ethanoled gas is just a whipping boy. Complaints about old gas and
watered gas long predates E10.


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