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When I bought my boat 10 yrs ago (it was 10 yrs old then), it had a
pressurized kenyon alchohol stove that didnt work. I got it to work
but decided that such pressurized alchohol stoves are probably one of
the most dangerous things on a boat considering the necessity of
priming with a substance whose flames are frequently difficult to see.
So, I just took out all its innards and dropped large cans of sterno
into the empty burner wells and used longer screws to make the burners
stand off high enough. We have managed to cook simple backpacking
meals on sterno for 5 so it does sort of work but I doubt you could
fix a real meal on it.
This got me thinking about the Origo non-pressurized stoves but they
are very expensive and involves removing the old stove with possible
damage to cabinetry. Why not make an Origo style drop in replacement
for the burner wells for older style pressurized stoves? I saw an
unpressurized alchohol backpacking stove that could be modified to fit
the burner wells, it would need some glass wool in the alchohol
reservoir to keep the fuel from sloshing. Not sure it would provide
much heat though. I have considered making a larger replacement
specifically for this purpose.
Is this worth doing? Would it sell as a product? Do Origo style
stoves work well enough? Would product liability insurance be a
killer? What do y'all think?

Having just browsed some discussions in backpacking newsgroups, it seems
alcohol stoves generally stink for lots of reasons, including the ones
you've mentioned. So, a question: Does anyone use propane stoves in boats?
If there are no safety reasons NOT to, you have tons of options. Just
measure your space and wander a few sporting goods stores with a tape
measure in hand.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:49:37 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote:

Having just browsed some discussions in backpacking newsgroups, it seems
alcohol stoves generally stink for lots of reasons, including the ones
you've mentioned. So, a question: Does anyone use propane stoves in
boats? If there are no safety reasons NOT to, you have tons of options.
Just measure your space and wander a few sporting goods stores with a
tape measure in hand.

Ever since I ripped the alcohol stove out of my Cal25 following many, many
fires (and had a friend throw his out the companionway - while on
fire...), I've been using propane. I've had various propane "sniffers",
but find the most reliable is in the center of my face. (and a bit of
Common Sense: you don't check for leaks with a match...)

Other alternatives are kerosene and diesel - they both require preheat,
but once going are WAY hotter (and safer) than alcohol. You may be able to
find a kerosene burner to drop in in place of the alcohol.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36 - 2-burner Force 10 with oven.

So, a question: Does anyone use propane stoves in boats?If there are no
safety reasons NOT to, you have tons of options.
A
propane leak will flow to the bottom of your hull, as its heavier than air.
Compressed natural gas is much safer than propane because its lighter than air.

Either eat your food raw or pick from a sorry crowd:

1) Electric -- have to run a genset or a big inverter with heavy
batteries. Can run on shore power in large marinas, but not small
ones. Fintry will have an electric oven, as I really don't like LPG
ovens.

2) Kerosene -- limited selection, have to have alcohol to prime,
smelly, messy, two stage starting. Hot flame, very good once you get
it running. Cheap fuel.

3) Alcohol. Expensive fuel, particularly abroad. Although you can
put out an alcohol fire with water, you can't see the flame and
alcohol is explosive -- actually more so than gasoline as it's less
sensitive to mixture (remember flooding a car's engine -- a gasoline
explosion is actually hard to do) and less powerful. Cool flame.
Pressurized tank potentially spraying flame around the boat in most
common designs.

4) Compressed Natural Gas. Probably the best fuel if (big if) you're
in a place where it's available. We never saw it in our circumnav.
Lighter than air, easy to light. Don't know about price.

5) Diesel. Great in a cool climate. The Dickinson stove is a
wonderful device, but I wouldn't want one in the tropics. Cheap fuel,
hot flame. And. BTW, you probably have it in your fuel tanks, so you
don't have to schlep half way across the island to refill.

6) LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas, usually propane in the USA, often
butane in the tropics). Easy to light, hot flame, would be the
natural choice, but it's heavier than air, hence potentially
dangerous. A nuisance to refill. Mount the tanks outside, in a locker
that drains overboard under all conditions, install it carefully, use
an electronic sniffer and your nose, and you can make the risk
acceptable. Fintry's stovetop will be LPG as I don't like depending
on a genset or having to start one to get a cup of coffee early in the
quiet of the morning. Make no mistake, however, LPG is really
dangerous, as it explodes easily. I once saw a 40' glass sailboat on
which an LPG explosion lifted the whole trunk cabin off the boat,
killing all aboard. DO NOT use camping stoves in a boat. Use only
fully and properly installed permanent stoves with separate tanks in
draining lockers.

7) Gasoline. Dangerous. Against Coast Guard rules. Dumb. Probably
voids your insurance. Forget it.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

(Wwj2110) wrote in message ...
So, a question: Does anyone use propane stoves in boats?If there are no
safety reasons NOT to, you have tons of options.
A
propane leak will flow to the bottom of your hull, as its heavier than air.
Compressed natural gas is much safer than propane because its lighter than air.

"Wwj2110" wrote in message
...
So, a question: Does anyone use propane stoves in boats?If there are no
safety reasons NOT to, you have tons of options.

A
propane leak will flow to the bottom of your hull, as its heavier than
air.
Compressed natural gas is much safer than propane because its lighter than
air.

OK...yeah...now I recall hearing that from my fireman neighbor, who said a
propane leak around an already-burning home is "interesting".

OK....we have it all figured out, then. You get one of those propane grills
that mounts to a gunwale bracket and allows the grill, with little tank, to
swing out over the water.

If it's raining, you eat spam.

Alchohol stoves - LONG!

From the old CME manual we Auxiliary Vessel Examiners used, prior to the advent
of Vessel Safety Checks, here is the applicable text on galley systems.

a. CME Requirements. There is no federal regulation concerning galley
equipment on recreational boats.
b. Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems. LPG includes any product
predominantly composed of propane, propylene, butanes, or butylenes. Although
LPG is two phased (liquid/vapor), under normal atmospheric pressure it is in
the gaseous state. Under a pressure of about 240 psi, it liquefies. Upon its
release from pressure it then vaporizes again. It is heavier than air and will
fall and settle if released. It is also known as "bottled gas" and contains a
distinctive odorant that will indicate a leak is occurring.
c. Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Systems. Compressed natural gas (CNG)
is natural gas that is normally supplied as a fuel by a gas utility. It is
stored in a portable cylinder which may reach a pressure of 2250 psi. CNG is
lighter than air and will generally rise and diffuse into the open air unless
trapped by pockets or partial enclosures in the cabin structure of the vessel
where there is no forced ventilation. In such cases a 4% to 5% gas-to-air ratio
by volume will constitute an explosive mixture. To alleviate the potential for
an explosive mixture, some means of overhead ventilation must be provided. The
gas itself must contain a distinctive odorant that will indicate a leak is
occurring.
d. LPG/CNG Equipment Requirements.
(1) The LPG gas cylinder (including any empty or reserve
cylinders) and regulating equipment must not be installed in closed
compartments, or compartments that can be easily closed. They must be located
so that escaping vapor cannot reach enclosed spaces. It must be substantially
secured and readily accessible. The cylinder must be equipped with a manual
shut-off valve with a hand wheel attached so it can be closed without the use
of a separate wrench (a dual cylinder system shall be provided with a two way
positive shut-off valve at the cylinder manifold). To be readily accessible
the cylinder must be located so that the hand wheel can be conveniently and
quickly operated. If the cylinders are enclosed in a storage locker, the
determination of "readily accessible" will be made with the compartment open.
(2) LPG cylinders may be stowed in a protective enclosure topside.
If such an enclosure is used it must be so constructed to provide convenient
and quick access to the shut-off valve. Permanent ventilation openings shall be
located in the bottom of the enclosure.
(3) Boat construction or design preventing the above, the
cylinder, regulating equipment, and safety equipment shall be mounted in a
locker or housing that is vapor-tight to the hull interior and located above
the waterline in an open cockpit. The locker or housing must be constructed of
or lined with corrosion-resistant material and shall open only from the top by
means of a cover seated on a gasket and tightly latched but capable of being
conveniently and quickly opened for operation of container valves and for
testing the system for leakage. It shall also be vented by a pipe of at least
1/2 inch internal diameter, led outboard. The vent opening shall be at the
bottom of and terminate at a point lower than the locker or housing bottom, but
be above the waterline.
(4) The LPG system must be equipped with a regulator to reduce the
gas from the cylinder pressure down to the operating or line pressure. It must
be substantially secured outside the enclosed spaces of the vessel and it must
be readily accessible. The regulator shall be located in such a position that,
in the event of component failure, it will discharge into the open atmosphere.
The point of discharge shall be at least two feet from any opening to the
cabin, the hull interior, or from an engine exhaust. LPG Storage Tank and
Regulating Device
(5) CNG gas cylinders (including any empty or reserve cylinders)
and regulating equipment shall be located in a well ventilated area. The area
shall provide protection from water or mechanical damage. The cylinders and
regulating equipment shall be readily accessible and secured (in vertical or
horizontal position). The CNG cylinders shall not be installed in compartments
containing an internal combustion engine. CNG cylinder storage compartments
shall not have openings which communicate with the engine space above the level
of the pressure regulator. The cylinder location shall be readily accessible
such that the cylinder valve hand wheel can be conveniently and quickly
operated. A pressure gauge is required on the high side of the system and the
dial must be fully visible. Compartments and lockers in which CNG cylinders
are stored shall have a ventilation opening located above the cylinders. There
must be two regulators to reduce gas pressure to operating line pressure. The
pressure regulators must each have a safety relief vent tube installed which
will direct escaping gas overboard above the water line. The vent hole shall be
protected against entry of water or other foreign material.
CNG Cylinder and Regulator
**NOTE** A pressure gauge is recommended but NOT required.
(6) LPG and CNG systems on vessels carrying passengers for hire
must have a remote shut off valve if the supply line enters an enclosed space.
A valve must be installed that can be operated from a position adjacent to the
appliance. The valve must be located between the fuel tank and the point where
the fuel supply line enters the enclosed portion of the vessel. A power
operated valve installed to meet this requirement must be of a type that will
fail closed.
(7) LPG and CNG systems on vessels carrying passengers for hire
must have a pressure gauge on the high pressure side of the supply line.
(8) Each CNG regulator assembly must also be fitted with a
pressure gauge. The gauge serves to show the amount of fuel remaining in the
cylinder and it provides an easy way to test the system for leaks. The gauge
must be located so that it is easily readable.
(9) The owner/operator can be advised of the proper procedures for
performing a leak test as follows:
(a) Close all appliance valves.
(b) Open cylinder valve to pressurize system.
(c) Close cylinder valve and read pressure gauge.
(d) Read pressure gauge again in 15 minutes. If there is no
pressure loss it is assumed there are no leaks.
(10) The entire system must be free from leaks.
(11) Advise the owner/operator to test the entire system at least
monthly using the above procedure. Suspected leaking areas can be traced with
a soapy water solution.
* * * *
* * *
DO NOT FLAME TEST FOR LEAKS!!
(12) All lines must be routed so that they are protected against
physical damage. Wherever lines pass through decks or bulkheads, they must be
protected by close fitting ferrules made of non-abrasive material. The fuel
supply line system and its components shall be designed to be specifically for
LPG/CNG and to withstand stress and exposure to the marine environment.
(a) LPG fuel supply lines must be one continuous length of
either copper tubing or UL labeled hose. They are not the same as tubing for
CNG.
(b) CNG fuel supply lines must be one continuous length and
marked or otherwise identified to indicate suitability for CNG.
(c) CNG has a corrosive effect on copper. Copper and copper
alloy materials are prohibited within any CNG system
NOTE*
* Internally tinned copper tubing is approved for use with CNG and is used
regularly. This tubing looks like copper from the outside. It must be marked
as suitable for CNG.
(13) All appliances must be positioned and shielded so that no
flammable material is in close proximity or could be ignited by the appliance.
(14) The compartment in which a gas appliance is located must be
adequately ventilated. The Vessel Examiner will determine that the compartment
can be ventilated by open hatches, ports, or air flow created by the craft's
ventilation system.
(15) If the LPG/CNG installation has more than one appliance,
assure that separate fuel supply piping is routed from the cylinder to the
appliance. Any "TEE" fittings installed for fueling more than one appliance
must be installed at the cylinder, down stream of the regulator, not behind the
appliances or in the bilges. Fittings of dissimilar metal to the fuel tubing
must not be exposed to water or electrolysis will result.
(16) LPG/CNG stoves may be fitted in gimbals to assure that the
appliance remains upright when the vessel rolls. A length of UL labeled
flexible hose, suitable for the fuel in use, shall be installed at the end of
the fuel supply line on these gimbal mounted appliances. LPG/CNG labeled hose
is required by the National Fire Protection Association and American Boat and
Yacht Council standards for LPG/CNG installations.)
(17) These guidelines apply to LPG and CNG systems on
recreational boats only; as there are NO federal regulations concerning
galley equipment on recreational boats.
(18) Refer to paragraphs O.2.d.(6) and (7) for special shut off
valve requirements for vessels carrying passengers for hire.
(19) Caddy Pack stoves using detachable 8-ounce butane canisters of
fuel will be acceptable IF the stove is permanently attached to the counter or
gimbled shelf in the galley. The use of suction cups on the legs is not
acceptable as the suction may release and allow the stove to move. The fuel
canister must be detached from the stove when it is not in use. Extra
canisters of fuel must be stored in such a manner that they do not roll around
in heavy seas. Fuel canisters larger than 8-ounces are not acceptable for this
type stove.

Why not diesel in the tropics? Actually I never heard of a diesel cooktop,
it doesn't stink?

5) Diesel. Great in a cool climate. The Dickinson stove is a
wonderful device, but I wouldn't want one in the tropics. Cheap fuel,
hot flame. And. BTW, you probably have it in your fuel tanks, so you
don't have to schlep half way across the island to refill.

It's bad for people to breath. I wouldn't wanna cook with it.

"Paul" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
Why not diesel in the tropics? Actually I never heard of a diesel cooktop,
it doesn't stink?

5) Diesel. Great in a cool climate. The Dickinson stove is a
wonderful device, but I wouldn't want one in the tropics. Cheap fuel,
hot flame. And. BTW, you probably have it in your fuel tanks, so you
don't have to schlep half way across the island to refill.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:23:23 +0000, Jim Woodward wrote:

Either eat your food raw or pick from a sorry crowd:

1) Electric -- have to run a genset or a big inverter with heavy
batteries. Can run on shore power in large marinas, but not small
ones. Fintry will have an electric oven, as I really don't like LPG
ovens.

This one I find just bizarre. You burn fuel to generate heat to generate
mechanical energy to generate electrical energy to generate...heat!

(BTW: I like my Force10 propane oven. Unlike most, it's thermostatically
controlled. Just be sure to disable the gimbal before you remove the
lasagna...)

Lloyd

The Origo alcohol/electric top is a good unit. Have one in
my MaXum. The burners make plenty of heat, and it's easy to
service.
JR

Parallax wrote:

When I bought my boat 10 yrs ago (it was 10 yrs old then), it had a
pressurized kenyon alchohol stove that didnt work. I got it to work
but decided that such pressurized alchohol stoves are probably one of
the most dangerous things on a boat considering the necessity of
priming with a substance whose flames are frequently difficult to see.
So, I just took out all its innards and dropped large cans of sterno
into the empty burner wells and used longer screws to make the burners
stand off high enough. We have managed to cook simple backpacking
meals on sterno for 5 so it does sort of work but I doubt you could
fix a real meal on it.
This got me thinking about the Origo non-pressurized stoves but they
are very expensive and involves removing the old stove with possible
damage to cabinetry. Why not make an Origo style drop in replacement
for the burner wells for older style pressurized stoves? I saw an
unpressurized alchohol backpacking stove that could be modified to fit
the burner wells, it would need some glass wool in the alchohol
reservoir to keep the fuel from sloshing. Not sure it would provide
much heat though. I have considered making a larger replacement
specifically for this purpose.
Is this worth doing? Would it sell as a product? Do Origo style
stoves work well enough? Would product liability insurance be a
killer? What do y'all think?

--
Remove X to reply

--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:31:49 -0700, "Lloyd Sumpter"
wrote:

This one I find just bizarre. You burn fuel to generate heat to generate
mechanical energy to generate electrical energy to generate...heat!

==========================

From the stand point of engineering efficiency, you're absolutely
right. In actual practice however, it turns out to be very convenient
as long as you already have the generator for other purposes. In the
south eastern US it is almost mandatory to have air conditioning on a
larger boat just to make it habitable, and it is very desirable in any
climate to be able to charge your batteries without running the main
engines. On a larger power boat the fuel burned by the generator is
trivial compared to everything else.

Well Lloyd,
We do the same thing in our houses and call it an electric bill.

But seriously, I would not be without a generator on a boat anymore.
I like the diesel units best as they seem to make their own fuel. But
they are also the most innocuous. The exhaust smells bad, the fuel
smells bad, they are loud and they shake the whole boat. I just have
probably the worst one made.

When only running the AC and battery charger, I have a Honda 2000 watt
"suitcase" unit that is very quiet and vibration free. I plug the shore
power cable into an adapter, and the adapter into the genny. It keeps
the house batteries up, so the galley inverter works, and give me lovely
cool air (or heat) which my old bones are grateful for. Uses about 1.5
gallons of gas overnight.

When underway, or for short periods, I use the built in Kohler or should
I say {{{{kOhLeR}}}}. It provides a vibro-massage and white noise field
no matter where you are seated aboard!

Regards,

Capt. Frank

Lloyd Sumpter wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:23:23 +0000, Jim Woodward wrote:

Either eat your food raw or pick from a sorry crowd:

1) Electric -- have to run a genset or a big inverter with heavy
batteries. Can run on shore power in large marinas, but not small
ones. Fintry will have an electric oven, as I really don't like LPG
ovens.

This one I find just bizarre. You burn fuel to generate heat to generate
mechanical energy to generate electrical energy to generate...heat!

(BTW: I like my Force10 propane oven. Unlike most, it's thermostatically
controlled. Just be sure to disable the gimbal before you remove the
lasagna...)

Lloyd

Because, like an Aga cooker, they run all the time. You don't light
them for each use. And, no, they don't stink. They're really great,
except for being warm all the time. see
http://www.dickinsonmarine.com

Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

"Paul" wrote in message able.rogers.com...
Why not diesel in the tropics? Actually I never heard of a diesel cooktop,
it doesn't stink?

5) Diesel. Great in a cool climate. The Dickinson stove is a
wonderful device, but I wouldn't want one in the tropics. Cheap fuel,
hot flame. And. BTW, you probably have it in your fuel tanks, so you
don't have to schlep half way across the island to refill.

Bizarre? Maybe.

Chalk it up to paranoia (which is, in moderation, healthy when you're
going to sea).

When you light an LPG cooktop, you can see the flame and know that
it's burning and is not just an open source of LPG. Lighting an oven
is sometimes harder -- the lighter fails, or you have to reach in to
light it, or whatever. I have several times gotten a good solid
whuuuppp in the oven. Besides, many cooks prefer gas on top and
electric in the oven. The oven thermostat is more accurate with
electric than gas. And, finally, diesel (for the genset) is much
easier to load aboard than LPG.

We found that on Swee****er (Force Ten LPG stove with oven) we rarely
used the oven anyway.

Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:23:23 +0000, Jim Woodward wrote:

Either eat your food raw or pick from a sorry crowd:

1) Electric -- have to run a genset or a big inverter with heavy
batteries. Can run on shore power in large marinas, but not small
ones. Fintry will have an electric oven, as I really don't like LPG
ovens.

This one I find just bizarre. You burn fuel to generate heat to generate
mechanical energy to generate electrical energy to generate...heat!

(BTW: I like my Force10 propane oven. Unlike most, it's thermostatically
controlled. Just be sure to disable the gimbal before you remove the
lasagna...)

Lloyd

I should add, that if you want to think about bizarre inefficiency,
Fintry was set up by the Royal Navy for all electric heat. So were
many of the other government and commercial boats we looked at, see
http://www.mvfintry.com/boatsnotbought.htm

At sea, she would run a 30kw 220VDC genset, which provided electric
heat, hot water, and stove ("cooker" over there), as well as the usual
ship loads. All of the engine heat went overboard.

In harbor, the genset was 15kw for the same purposes.

At least on the new Fintry we'll recapture much of the waste heat from
the prime movers for domestic hot water and heat as required. The
main heat source will be a diesel fired boiler.

Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:23:23 +0000, Jim Woodward wrote:

Either eat your food raw or pick from a sorry crowd:

1) Electric -- have to run a genset or a big inverter with heavy
batteries. Can run on shore power in large marinas, but not small
ones. Fintry will have an electric oven, as I really don't like LPG
ovens.

This one I find just bizarre. You burn fuel to generate heat to generate
mechanical energy to generate electrical energy to generate...heat!

(BTW: I like my Force10 propane oven. Unlike most, it's thermostatically
controlled. Just be sure to disable the gimbal before you remove the
lasagna...)

Lloyd

I second the recommendation for Dickinson (Good Canadian Product -
actually made here in Burnaby). Any diesel-burning device doesn't stink if
you get it hot enough.

Pretty much EVERY commercial boat here on the Wet Coast (fishing, tugs,
commuter, etc.) have Dickinsons, and in the winter they just run them all
the time. Cabin heat, stove, keeping coffee warm, drying your socks...
whatever.

I replaced the Volvo diesel furnace in Far Cove with a Dickinson, and I
love it! nice cheery flames, a place to keep coffee/tea/hot chocolate
warm, and it keeps the cabin nice and toasty without using any significant
battery power (as opposed to a furnace that draws 2-3 Amps when on). But
mine is more of a heater than a stove, since I have the propane unit for
"real" cooking.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:47:36 +0000, Jim Woodward wrote:

Because, like an Aga cooker, they run all the time. You don't light
them for each use. And, no, they don't stink. They're really great,
except for being warm all the time. see
http://www.dickinsonmarine.com

Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

"Paul" wrote in message able.rogers.com...
Why not diesel in the tropics? Actually I never heard of a diesel cooktop,
it doesn't stink?

5) Diesel. Great in a cool climate. The Dickinson stove is a
wonderful device, but I wouldn't want one in the tropics. Cheap fuel,
hot flame. And. BTW, you probably have it in your fuel tanks, so you
don't have to schlep half way across the island to refill.