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Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how
big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi Bruce
A long shaft is definitely recommended. In an emergency (read storm) the wave action would have your prop more above than below the waterline. So not thrust. FWIW -- c ya Wim www.cruising.ca/thousand/f-index.html "Bruce" wrote in message ... : I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how : big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would : be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be : appreciated. : Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently : on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. : : Regards, : Bruce : : |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
A long shaft Yamaha or Honda would be a good choice. It will run you about
$300 to $800 more than a Mercury or OMC (Johnson / Evinrude) but these are bullet-proof motors. The Yamaha's are little rare in some parts of the country but the Honda's are fairly available. If you are going out of country (like Mexico) you may want to consider a Mercury. Note too that the Nissan, Suzuki and Mercury (Mariner) small bore motors are actually made by Tohatsu. The size you want is about right for that boat. Anything from 4 to 8 hp should do the job... more costs more so think about your horsepower with the idea that it may be used for hours at a time if you have no wind and are impatient or if you have a lot of wind and need to handle the boat against it. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
"Chris Edmonson" wrote...
A long shaft Yamaha or Honda would be a good choice. It will run you about $300 to $800 more than a Mercury or OMC (Johnson / Evinrude) but these are bullet-proof motors. The Yamaha's are little rare in some parts of the country but the Honda's are fairly available. If you are going out of country (like Mexico) you may want to consider a Mercury. Note too that the Nissan, Suzuki and Mercury (Mariner) small bore motors are actually made by Tohatsu. The size you want is about right for that boat. Anything from 4 to 8 hp should do the job... Remember that the 8 HP motor is the same as the 10, except for max RPM and HP rating (about 105 lb for the Yamaha 4-stroke, long-shaft, 'sailboat special', IIRC). Therefore, it is MUCH heavier than the 5 HP. For the small boat, lighter is better! I had both Honda and Yamaha 10s on my San Juan 7.7. Either one was overkill in terms of HP. The Honda was lighter, but the Yamaha had a better feature set with the starter and alternator. I now have a Honda 4-stroke 2 on my SeaPearl 21 (much lighter and cleaner than the San Juan 21, though). A 4 or 5 HP 4-stroke should be plenty for the San Juan. A long shaft is good for sailboats, mainly because of the pitching action in waves that will lift a short shaft out of the water. You want to have the prop lower than you normally would for a transom mount on a powerboat, so it will stay in the water when pitching. |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi Bruce,
I'm surprised that nobody in their replies to you has brought up the subject of gear ratio's. Unless things have changed in the past year or so, I found it was difficult to find a motor with a high gear ratio(close to 3.0), as opposed to the common 'egg beater' offerings (closer to 2.0 or less). Most sailboats are heavy displacement vessels (except for some catamarans, etc.), and will not come out of the water to plane. This translates into a requirement for a 'pusher' type motor, where the propellor turns slower for any given engine speed, but produces more torque, or push. I almost bought the Honda two years ago, but when I discovered that it's gear ratio was close to 2.0, switched my decision to the Yamaha 4 stroke 'high thrust' model with a gear ratio of 2.92. Some people may claim that their Honda's work fine on their boats, but I would guess that if they got caught in a strong on coming sea, they would have trouble pointing their boat into the wind. The only other engine I considered was a Mercury 4-stroke, but it weighed about 20 pounds more than the equivalent Yamaha, but did have a decent gear ratio. The best pusher I ever owned was a British Seagull, with a gear ratio of almost 4.0. That engine was shown in photos push huge barges around (only 6 hp). I have the 9.9 hp Yamaha on my 22 foot sailboat, which weighs about 2 tons unloaded. I could have gone with their 8.0 hp high thrust engine, but for some strange reason, it actually weighed a few pounds more than the 9.9 and I felt the extra horsepower would give better performance. I don't know why there are not more offerings of high gear ratio engines. When I bought my Chrysler 'Sailor' model over a decade ago, there was a wider selection of these types. My only regret is that the Yamaha is not lighter, as I can no longer heft it's 99 pounds over the transom into the boat, as I could with my previous engines. Although 4-strokes are inherently heavier than their 2-stroke counterparts, eventually they will be able to get the weights down to more reasonable levels. Sherwin Dubren Bruce wrote: I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is
clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:56:06 -0400, "Bruce"
wrote: I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. How are you going to use it? If you are only going to use it for getting out of and into the slip, I'm wondering if an electric trolling motor would suit your needs. It's lighter, less expensive, and much quieter than any sort of fuel motor. |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi Chris,
Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Sherwin;
True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range I have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more for the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change. The retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking for a particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I guess I was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an existing motor than getting a new one. Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat will typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat often goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does not need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull). The rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase or decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change. On my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and saved on the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a long use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a season's use I can count the tanks used on one hand! Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the range of useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor with a MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or sailboat motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at almost all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so there isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking. Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms of expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that unless I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the gear ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Chris, Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Chris Edmonson wrote:
... four strokes make power at a lower RPM .... That's not true for motorcycle engines so I suspect it's untrue for outboards. Four strokes *sound* like they're at lower RPM because they only fire half as often at the same RPM. Another concern might be pollution. Two strokes have more oil in their exhaust. |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hey Bruce,
You've got alot good replys already, so I'll be brief.. When my Catalina 22's 10hp longshaft died, I replaced it with a shorter shaft 5hp Merc. Cost was a consideration, I was starting a vacation and I quickly bought the cheaper motor at the local west marine. I got the short shaft partly because I wanted a motor that could also use on a dingy for another boat. I simply remounted the Catalina's outboard bracket down 4". If the San Juan 21 is similar to my boat, 5hp is plenty. A bigger engine would just run at a lower throttle at hull speed and eat through your gas can faster. As for spinning the prop in choppy seas, My big 10hp longshaft evinrude 2-cylinder did that too. Sometimes it's just safer to use your sailing skills than to depend on that egg-beater dangling from the rear. Please post a follow-up and tell us what you choose. John. "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
"Ferg" wrote...
I got the short shaft partly because I wanted a motor that could also use on a dingy for another boat. I simply remounted the Catalina's outboard bracket down 4". Be careful when you do that! You may end up immersing the head and "drowning" the engine when the transom goes down! Granted, an outboard on the transom of a sailboat is a compromise at best. When you cut corners for cost, though, you may end up in a dangerous situation. Just make sure you know the boat's and motor's capabilities, so you don't end up with a dead engine when you need it most |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Chris,
You mention that you could always get your boat up to hull speed before you hit maximum throttle rpm's. Now, was that in calm waters or going downwind. I think you will find trying to make headway into a strong wind and sea puts more demand on the engine. It's for those unusual conditions that I would be willing to put up the extra cash to get the reserve power. My only regret is that they have not come up with a four stroke engine with a reasonable weight. I could heist my 65 pound Chrysler Sailor over the transom into the boat, at sea. I cannot do that with my 4 stroke 99 pound Yamaha. I would have gotten a 2 stroke but I am tired of mixing the oil with the gas, the loud noises from the engine, plus the worry that the government is going to put some kind of restrictions on 2 stroke engines. There are places to economize in boating, but for anyone doing serious cruising (not day sailing), the added expense of a strong engine is worth it. As I mentioned before, the higher gear ratio gives you more leeway to increase your thrust, beyond what changing the propellor can do. It's true that high gear ratio engines are getting harder to find, but not impossible. Two years ago, while on a vacation to the Florida Keys, I found that my Chrysler had frozen up in storage beyond repair. I had to hustle to get a Yamaha dealer to truck one down from Miami since there were none available locally. I'm sure that if people are not pressed for time like me, they can order any engine they want. If people were more knowlegable about sailboat engines, they would not get stuck with these motor boat engines, and wouldn't have to change props as an afterthought. Sherwin Chris Edmonson wrote: Sherwin; True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range I have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more for the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change. The retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking for a particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I guess I was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an existing motor than getting a new one. Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat will typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat often goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does not need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull). Assuming that their gear ratio will allow them to get enough thrust with more conventional pitch props. The rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase or decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change. On my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and saved on the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a long use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a season's use I can count the tanks used on one hand! Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the range of useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor with a MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or sailboat motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at almost all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so there isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking. Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms of expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that unless I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the gear ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question. There are no easy cures. Changing the pitch to overcome a design deficiency is asking for trouble down the line. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Chris, Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi Ferg,
I feel badly being the 'critic' here on some of these replies, but they really go against my experiences with sailboat engines at sea. As far as long shaft vs. regular length engines, I have been in choppy waters where the long shaft was just about in the water at a wave crest and almost buried at the waves low point. A shorter shaft engine would have either come out of the water at the high wave or have been swamped at the wave low point. If you are sailing calm waters all the time (never happens for most people), you don't need the long shaft. Ferg wrote: Hey Bruce, You've got alot good replys already, so I'll be brief.. When my Catalina 22's 10hp longshaft died, I replaced it with a shorter shaft 5hp Merc. Cost was a consideration, I was starting a vacation and I quickly bought the cheaper motor at the local west marine. I got the short shaft partly because I wanted a motor that could also use on a dingy for another boat. I simply remounted the Catalina's outboard bracket down 4". If the San Juan 21 is similar to my boat, 5hp is plenty. That depends on the weight of his boat. A lightweight trailerable boat has less power requirements than a fixed keel heavier counterpart. A bigger engine would just run at a lower throttle at hull speed and eat through your gas can faster. I thought running at lower throttle uses less gas. As for spinning the prop in choppy seas, My big 10hp longshaft evinrude 2-cylinder did that too. You probably had the engine height set too high for the longshaft. Sometimes it's just safer to use your sailing skills than to depend on that egg-beater dangling from the rear. Yes, if you are willing to run with the wind, or 'heave-to', but if you want to make directional headway to get somewhere's, the engine is your best bet. Please post a follow-up and tell us what you choose. John. "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
|
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi again Bruce,
Just some general observations on the replies to this posting. People seem concerned about low cost alternatives, which is fine if you are doing day sailing or out on small lakes. However, if you plan to be on any large lakes or oceans for any extended cruising, don't cut corners on a good engine. Don't forget that you life may depend on it, and that's worth a lot of money. It's true sailboats have more options than power boats, but it helps to have a strong dependable engine to get you out of the tougher situations. I would recommend a long shaft, and in addition, I would recommend a more flexible motor mount that would allow you to raise and lower the engine while on the water. If your boat is light weight and you plan to do day sailing on small lakes, the 5 hp would certainly push your boat fine. Otherwise, I would be looking in the 7 to 10 hp range, depending on the type of engine (you could get by with 7 in a four stroke). Also, go for the higher gear ratio, if you can find it. Sherwin Bruce wrote: I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
I, too, am in a quandry about replacing the 1989 Mariner 9.9 kicker on
my Mac25. I've named the engine "Sybil" due to its several personalities, one of which involves dying in order to test my seamanship at the most intersting moments imaginable. Anyway, I'm interested in a 4-cycle for quiet operation, and I want the smallest, lightest engine that will push my boat at its hull speed of 6.7mph reliably and safely under varied conditions. You would think that there would be some scientific way to figure this out, but nobody seems to know for sure. SZ Sherwin Dubren wrote: Chris, You mention that you could always get your boat up to hull speed before you hit maximum throttle rpm's. Now, was that in calm waters or going downwind. I think you will find trying to make headway into a strong wind and sea puts more demand on the engine. It's for those unusual conditions that I would be willing to put up the extra cash to get the reserve power. My only regret is that they have not come up with a four stroke engine with a reasonable weight. I could heist my 65 pound Chrysler Sailor over the transom into the boat, at sea. I cannot do that with my 4 stroke 99 pound Yamaha. I would have gotten a 2 stroke but I am tired of mixing the oil with the gas, the loud noises from the engine, plus the worry that the government is going to put some kind of restrictions on 2 stroke engines. There are places to economize in boating, but for anyone doing serious cruising (not day sailing), the added expense of a strong engine is worth it. As I mentioned before, the higher gear ratio gives you more leeway to increase your thrust, beyond what changing the propellor can do. It's true that high gear ratio engines are getting harder to find, but not impossible. Two years ago, while on a vacation to the Florida Keys, I found that my Chrysler had frozen up in storage beyond repair. I had to hustle to get a Yamaha dealer to truck one down from Miami since there were none available locally. I'm sure that if people are not pressed for time like me, they can order any engine they want. If people were more knowlegable about sailboat engines, they would not get stuck with these motor boat engines, and wouldn't have to change props as an afterthought. Sherwin Chris Edmonson wrote: Sherwin; True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range I have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more for the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change. The retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking for a particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I guess I was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an existing motor than getting a new one. Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat will typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat often goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does not need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull). Assuming that their gear ratio will allow them to get enough thrust with more conventional pitch props. The rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase or decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change. On my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and saved on the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a long use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a season's use I can count the tanks used on one hand! Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the range of useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor with a MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or sailboat motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at almost all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so there isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking. Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms of expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that unless I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the gear ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question. There are no easy cures. Changing the pitch to overcome a design deficiency is asking for trouble down the line. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Chris, Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi Steve,
See my reply at the end of this group of replies. Unfortunately, the engine manufacturers have not solved the problem of a lightweight engine in the horsepower range you need, say 7 to 10, at least that I know of. You did not mention why it had to be lightweight. I assume that was so you could take it into the boat, if necessary, at sea. In my case, I felt the advantages of a four-stroke outweighed it's disadvantages of heavy weight. I just hope I never tangle a line in the prop or break a propellor connector at sea in a storm, since I cannot lift my 9.9 Yamaha over the transom into the boat (it weighs 99 pounds and would be at an awkward angle). The exact horsepower you need is a function of your boat's weight, windage profile, etc. I would say to get something a bit stronger than you might think necessary, as you may need that extra power someday. Burning a bit more gas is a small penalty to pay for safety. If your present 9.9 two-stroke is pushing the boat ok, I would say that a possibly a 8 or 9.9 four-stroke with the right propellor (low pitch) would do the job. My 9.9 Yamaha 4-stroke is their 'high thrust' model, designed for heavy displacement hulls, and has a low pitch prop together with a high gear ratio to insure plenty of push when you need it. With a 25 footer fixed keel boat, I would personally go with the 9.9 hp. Strangely enough, Yamaha's 9.9 h.p. high thrust weighs a bit less than their 8 h.p. high thrust (both are 4 strokes). If you are patient enough, there will be lighter weight versions coming out, but not knowing what is on the manufacturer's drawing boards, it's anybody's guess when. Sherwin Dubren Steve Zweigart wrote: I, too, am in a quandry about replacing the 1989 Mariner 9.9 kicker on my Mac25. I've named the engine "Sybil" due to its several personalities, one of which involves dying in order to test my seamanship at the most intersting moments imaginable. Anyway, I'm interested in a 4-cycle for quiet operation, and I want the smallest, lightest engine that will push my boat at its hull speed of 6.7mph reliably and safely under varied conditions. You would think that there would be some scientific way to figure this out, but nobody seems to know for sure. SZ Sherwin Dubren wrote: Chris, You mention that you could always get your boat up to hull speed before you hit maximum throttle rpm's. Now, was that in calm waters or going downwind. I think you will find trying to make headway into a strong wind and sea puts more demand on the engine. It's for those unusual conditions that I would be willing to put up the extra cash to get the reserve power. My only regret is that they have not come up with a four stroke engine with a reasonable weight. I could heist my 65 pound Chrysler Sailor over the transom into the boat, at sea. I cannot do that with my 4 stroke 99 pound Yamaha. I would have gotten a 2 stroke but I am tired of mixing the oil with the gas, the loud noises from the engine, plus the worry that the government is going to put some kind of restrictions on 2 stroke engines. There are places to economize in boating, but for anyone doing serious cruising (not day sailing), the added expense of a strong engine is worth it. As I mentioned before, the higher gear ratio gives you more leeway to increase your thrust, beyond what changing the propellor can do. It's true that high gear ratio engines are getting harder to find, but not impossible. Two years ago, while on a vacation to the Florida Keys, I found that my Chrysler had frozen up in storage beyond repair. I had to hustle to get a Yamaha dealer to truck one down from Miami since there were none available locally. I'm sure that if people are not pressed for time like me, they can order any engine they want. If people were more knowlegable about sailboat engines, they would not get stuck with these motor boat engines, and wouldn't have to change props as an afterthought. Sherwin Chris Edmonson wrote: Sherwin; True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range I have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more for the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change. The retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking for a particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I guess I was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an existing motor than getting a new one. Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat will typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat often goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does not need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull). Assuming that their gear ratio will allow them to get enough thrust with more conventional pitch props. The rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase or decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change. On my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and saved on the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a long use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a season's use I can count the tanks used on one hand! Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the range of useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor with a MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or sailboat motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at almost all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so there isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking. Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms of expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that unless I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the gear ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question. There are no easy cures. Changing the pitch to overcome a design deficiency is asking for trouble down the line. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Chris, Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Sherwin;
Generally I have not gone to the edge of the rpm range to move the boat in wind or current. However, I have to add that I sail when at all possible so do not rely on the motor as much as some might. My most usual time to turn the motor on is when I leave the dock until I get out just far enough not to pose a danger to other traffic. From an anchorage I will set the sail instead of motor off... to me motors are just a noisy niusance. There isn't much current close in the harbor or near the coves I use most so it's not an issue. At those times when it is I still prefer to sail out. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Chris, You mention that you could always get your boat up to hull speed before you hit maximum throttle rpm's. Now, was that in calm waters or going downwind. I think you will find trying to make headway into a strong wind and sea puts more demand on the engine. It's for those unusual conditions that I would be willing to put up the extra cash to get the reserve power. My only regret is that they have not come up with a four stroke engine with a reasonable weight. I could heist my 65 pound Chrysler Sailor over the transom into the boat, at sea. I cannot do that with my 4 stroke 99 pound Yamaha. I would have gotten a 2 stroke but I am tired of mixing the oil with the gas, the loud noises from the engine, plus the worry that the government is going to put some kind of restrictions on 2 stroke engines. There are places to economize in boating, but for anyone doing serious cruising (not day sailing), the added expense of a strong engine is worth it. As I mentioned before, the higher gear ratio gives you more leeway to increase your thrust, beyond what changing the propellor can do. It's true that high gear ratio engines are getting harder to find, but not impossible. Two years ago, while on a vacation to the Florida Keys, I found that my Chrysler had frozen up in storage beyond repair. I had to hustle to get a Yamaha dealer to truck one down from Miami since there were none available locally. I'm sure that if people are not pressed for time like me, they can order any engine they want. If people were more knowlegable about sailboat engines, they would not get stuck with these motor boat engines, and wouldn't have to change props as an afterthought. Sherwin Chris Edmonson wrote: Sherwin; True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range I have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more for the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change. The retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking for a particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I guess I was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an existing motor than getting a new one. Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat will typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat often goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does not need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull). Assuming that their gear ratio will allow them to get enough thrust with more conventional pitch props. The rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase or decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change. On my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and saved on the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a long use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a season's use I can count the tanks used on one hand! Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the range of useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor with a MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or sailboat motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at almost all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so there isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking. Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms of expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that unless I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the gear ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question. There are no easy cures. Changing the pitch to overcome a design deficiency is asking for trouble down the line. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Chris, Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Steve;
My suggestion for this boat would be a 6 h.p. four stroke. Unless you have long periods of motoring that dictate other reasons for more horsepower this will likely give you hull speed for the 3,000 or so pounds of displacement. Just my opinion though. Best; Chris "Steve Zweigart" wrote in message ... I, too, am in a quandry about replacing the 1989 Mariner 9.9 kicker on my Mac25. I've named the engine "Sybil" due to its several personalities, one of which involves dying in order to test my seamanship at the most intersting moments imaginable. Anyway, I'm interested in a 4-cycle for quiet operation, and I want the smallest, lightest engine that will push my boat at its hull speed of 6.7mph reliably and safely under varied conditions. You would think that there would be some scientific way to figure this out, but nobody seems to know for sure. SZ Sherwin Dubren wrote: Chris, You mention that you could always get your boat up to hull speed before you hit maximum throttle rpm's. Now, was that in calm waters or going downwind. I think you will find trying to make headway into a strong wind and sea puts more demand on the engine. It's for those unusual conditions that I would be willing to put up the extra cash to get the reserve power. My only regret is that they have not come up with a four stroke engine with a reasonable weight. I could heist my 65 pound Chrysler Sailor over the transom into the boat, at sea. I cannot do that with my 4 stroke 99 pound Yamaha. I would have gotten a 2 stroke but I am tired of mixing the oil with the gas, the loud noises from the engine, plus the worry that the government is going to put some kind of restrictions on 2 stroke engines. There are places to economize in boating, but for anyone doing serious cruising (not day sailing), the added expense of a strong engine is worth it. As I mentioned before, the higher gear ratio gives you more leeway to increase your thrust, beyond what changing the propellor can do. It's true that high gear ratio engines are getting harder to find, but not impossible. Two years ago, while on a vacation to the Florida Keys, I found that my Chrysler had frozen up in storage beyond repair. I had to hustle to get a Yamaha dealer to truck one down from Miami since there were none available locally. I'm sure that if people are not pressed for time like me, they can order any engine they want. If people were more knowlegable about sailboat engines, they would not get stuck with these motor boat engines, and wouldn't have to change props as an afterthought. Sherwin Chris Edmonson wrote: Sherwin; True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range I have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more for the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change. The retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking for a particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I guess I was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an existing motor than getting a new one. Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat will typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat often goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does not need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull). Assuming that their gear ratio will allow them to get enough thrust with more conventional pitch props. The rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase or decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change. On my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and saved on the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a long use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a season's use I can count the tanks used on one hand! Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the range of useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor with a MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or sailboat motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at almost all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so there isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking. Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms of expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that unless I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the gear ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question. There are no easy cures. Changing the pitch to overcome a design deficiency is asking for trouble down the line. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Chris, Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
I wish to thank everyone for this excellent thread. I should have mentioned
that all of my sailing will be on small lakes and ponds (that's all we have in Vermont except for that other "Great Lake"). I could probably even get by with a good sized electric except for the one time when I might get caught in a good blow 4 miles from the boat ramp. I guess my first choice is a Honda because I used to sell them and know the quality. The 4 stroke is a must for me just because of the noise and smoke, not to mention pollution of the 2 strokes. Thanks again everyone. Nice to have a group where we can get good honest answers without being beat over the head by the "experts". Pleasant sailing all. Bruce "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi again Bruce, Just some general observations on the replies to this posting. People seem concerned about low cost alternatives, which is fine if you are doing day sailing or out on small lakes. However, if you plan to be on any large lakes or oceans for any extended cruising, don't cut corners on a good engine. Don't forget that you life may depend on it, and that's worth a lot of money. It's true sailboats have more options than power boats, but it helps to have a strong dependable engine to get you out of the tougher situations. I would recommend a long shaft, and in addition, I would recommend a more flexible motor mount that would allow you to raise and lower the engine while on the water. If your boat is light weight and you plan to do day sailing on small lakes, the 5 hp would certainly push your boat fine. Otherwise, I would be looking in the 7 to 10 hp range, depending on the type of engine (you could get by with 7 in a four stroke). Also, go for the higher gear ratio, if you can find it. Sherwin Bruce wrote: I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi Chris,
Like I said earlier, if you don't do any open ocean sailing like the Bahamas, you can get away with less power. Also, my 22 footer weighs 4000 lbs. unloaded, probably closer to 5000 lbs. with full water and fuel tanks, plus other supplies. I have had trouble with engines around 6 h.p., like trying to point my boat upstream in the Mississippi River and going backwards, at full throttle, or being caught in open waters in a real blow. When a squall hits, I prefer to take down all sails and motor with bare poles. I usually don't have time to put up any storm sails when these squalls come up quickly. If you ever found yourself on a rocky lee shore in a big blow, you would appreciate a larger engine to get you off. The 6 hp engine might work on a light trailerable boat with a hull that has less than normal wind resistance, but I would not take such a boat out in the ocean anyways. Sherwin Chris Edmonson wrote: Sherwin; Generally I have not gone to the edge of the rpm range to move the boat in wind or current. However, I have to add that I sail when at all possible so do not rely on the motor as much as some might. My most usual time to turn the motor on is when I leave the dock until I get out just far enough not to pose a danger to other traffic. From an anchorage I will set the sail instead of motor off... to me motors are just a noisy niusance. There isn't much current close in the harbor or near the coves I use most so it's not an issue. At those times when it is I still prefer to sail out. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Chris, You mention that you could always get your boat up to hull speed before you hit maximum throttle rpm's. Now, was that in calm waters or going downwind. I think you will find trying to make headway into a strong wind and sea puts more demand on the engine. It's for those unusual conditions that I would be willing to put up the extra cash to get the reserve power. My only regret is that they have not come up with a four stroke engine with a reasonable weight. I could heist my 65 pound Chrysler Sailor over the transom into the boat, at sea. I cannot do that with my 4 stroke 99 pound Yamaha. I would have gotten a 2 stroke but I am tired of mixing the oil with the gas, the loud noises from the engine, plus the worry that the government is going to put some kind of restrictions on 2 stroke engines. There are places to economize in boating, but for anyone doing serious cruising (not day sailing), the added expense of a strong engine is worth it. As I mentioned before, the higher gear ratio gives you more leeway to increase your thrust, beyond what changing the propellor can do. It's true that high gear ratio engines are getting harder to find, but not impossible. Two years ago, while on a vacation to the Florida Keys, I found that my Chrysler had frozen up in storage beyond repair. I had to hustle to get a Yamaha dealer to truck one down from Miami since there were none available locally. I'm sure that if people are not pressed for time like me, they can order any engine they want. If people were more knowlegable about sailboat engines, they would not get stuck with these motor boat engines, and wouldn't have to change props as an afterthought. Sherwin Chris Edmonson wrote: Sherwin; True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range I have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more for the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change. The retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking for a particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I guess I was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an existing motor than getting a new one. Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat will typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat often goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does not need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull). Assuming that their gear ratio will allow them to get enough thrust with more conventional pitch props. The rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase or decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change. On my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and saved on the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a long use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a season's use I can count the tanks used on one hand! Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the range of useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor with a MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or sailboat motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at almost all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so there isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking. Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms of expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that unless I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the gear ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question. There are no easy cures. Changing the pitch to overcome a design deficiency is asking for trouble down the line. Best; Chris "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Chris, Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at lower rpm's than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear ratio's out of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury go to higher gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to just change the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be a little nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it optimally to the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear ratio and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a higher gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so). Actually, both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to the higher thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear ratio which would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor pitch. With the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the propellor which has obvious limits as to how much this can be done. Sherwin Dubren Chris Edmonson wrote: All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in mind is clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it difficult to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around so would tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose. The other thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be best on fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as large an issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that needed the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give you some of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If you don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and gain power earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this change very well. Best; Chris "Bruce" wrote in message ... I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Hi Bruce,
I almost bought a Honda 4 stroke 9.9 for my boat. Probably a very reliable engine, but I felt the gear ratio was too low for a sailboat. As you have read in the previous responses, people have suggested over- coming this deficiency by replacing the propellor with a lower pitch. I don't think this is a good approach. The Hondas are designed to push planing motorboats, for which they do an excellent job. Sherwin Bruce wrote: I wish to thank everyone for this excellent thread. I should have mentioned that all of my sailing will be on small lakes and ponds (that's all we have in Vermont except for that other "Great Lake"). I could probably even get by with a good sized electric except for the one time when I might get caught in a good blow 4 miles from the boat ramp. I guess my first choice is a Honda because I used to sell them and know the quality. The 4 stroke is a must for me just because of the noise and smoke, not to mention pollution of the 2 strokes. Thanks again everyone. Nice to have a group where we can get good honest answers without being beat over the head by the "experts". Pleasant sailing all. Bruce "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi again Bruce, Just some general observations on the replies to this posting. People seem concerned about low cost alternatives, which is fine if you are doing day sailing or out on small lakes. However, if you plan to be on any large lakes or oceans for any extended cruising, don't cut corners on a good engine. Don't forget that you life may depend on it, and that's worth a lot of money. It's true sailboats have more options than power boats, but it helps to have a strong dependable engine to get you out of the tougher situations. I would recommend a long shaft, and in addition, I would recommend a more flexible motor mount that would allow you to raise and lower the engine while on the water. If your boat is light weight and you plan to do day sailing on small lakes, the 5 hp would certainly push your boat fine. Otherwise, I would be looking in the 7 to 10 hp range, depending on the type of engine (you could get by with 7 in a four stroke). Also, go for the higher gear ratio, if you can find it. Sherwin Bruce wrote: I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about how big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP would be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be appreciated. Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount currently on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop. Regards, Bruce |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
"John R Weiss" wrote in message Be careful when you do that! You may end up immersing the head and "drowning" the engine when the transom goes down! The transom is adjustable. Granted, an outboard on the transom of a sailboat is a compromise at best. Exactly, I wouldn't put myself in a situation where I "depended" on the outboard... Except for maybe being becalmed. so you don't end up with a dead engine when you need it most That's why I bought a new one. |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Ferg, I feel badly being the 'critic' here on some of these replies, but they really go against my experiences with sailboat engines at sea. No problem, but allow me to retort. If the San Juan 21 is similar to my boat, 5hp is plenty. That depends on the weight of his boat. Like I said, I'm not familiar with Bruce's San Juan 21. I thought running at lower throttle uses less gas. Of course, but you still have more juice getting sucked through the carb with a larger engine. My 5hp uses less gas than my 10hp did doing the same job. I speak from my humble experience. You probably had the engine height set too high for the longshaft. Maybe it was just the inate problem of using an outboard on a small sailboat. Please don't assume that I'm an idiot. The outboard situation on my Catalina 22 is not unlike most trailer-sailors. The boat itself is lightweight and can get bouncy in a moderate chop. But if there's chop or short waves, then there is likely wind as well, and wind is the desired source for propulsion anyhow. Even if it takes longer to tack upwind to get home, it's probably SAFER to do what the boat was designed to do than tinker and struggle with a cavitating outboard. You're much more likely to pay attention to your surroundings if you focus on your telltales on a tight reach, instead of adjusting the outboard's throttle during each wave crest. And frankly, my Catalina 22 sails better now that I got rid of that old, beastly, awkward twin-cylinder machine on it's stern. I consider all small outboards problematic and subject to unforeseen problems... No matter how much you spend on one. It's a luxury on my larger boat's dingy, but I always carry oars. If you really want a small trailer-sailor that works well with its outboard, maybe you should have bought one of these: http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sa...fications.html |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
Ferg wrote: "Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... Hi Ferg, I feel badly being the 'critic' here on some of these replies, but they really go against my experiences with sailboat engines at sea. No problem, but allow me to retort. If the San Juan 21 is similar to my boat, 5hp is plenty. That depends on the weight of his boat. Like I said, I'm not familiar with Bruce's San Juan 21. I thought running at lower throttle uses less gas. Of course, but you still have more juice getting sucked through the carb with a larger engine. My 5hp uses less gas than my 10hp did doing the same job. I speak from my humble experience. You probably had the engine height set too high for the longshaft. Maybe it was just the inate problem of using an outboard on a small sailboat. Please don't assume that I'm an idiot. There are no innate problems with outboards. I have been using them for over 30 years and although not perfect, they do the job. The outboard situation on my Catalina 22 is not unlike most trailer-sailors. The boat itself is lightweight and can get bouncy in a moderate chop. But if there's chop or short waves, then there is likely wind as well, and wind is the desired source for propulsion anyhow. Not when it's blowing directly in your face. Even if it takes longer to tack upwind to get home, it's probably SAFER to do what the boat was designed to do than tinker and struggle with a cavitating outboard. I have only experienced cavitation with following seas, and even then it was not a big problem. You're much more likely to pay attention to your surroundings if you focus on your telltales on a tight reach, instead of adjusting the outboard's throttle during each wave crest. I don't know what kind of setup you have with your engine, but I have never had that problem. One thing that helps, is to be motor sailing with reduced sails up. It keeps the boat on an even keel, so unless you are still forced to tack, you can set your engine height and leave it there. You are assuming that you have all the time in the world to tack. If you are out at sea and you have only so many hours of daylight, you may want to get in before dark, or before the weather deteriorates even more. And frankly, my Catalina 22 sails better now that I got rid of that old, beastly, awkward twin-cylinder machine on it's stern. It's nice to be a purist, but I'm not out to prove anything. I usually motor sail in rough conditions into the wind. The sails take some load off the engine and help to stabilize the boat. I find that I'm not fiddling with the throttle, and only in rare cases do I have to adjust the engine height (with a long shaft those instances are extremely rare). Again, all this depends on where you are sailing and what kind of boat you are in. For trailerable boats on small lakes, the rules are quite different from a fixed keel boat on the ocean or large lake. I also learned to sail on a Rhodes 19 with no engine, but I wouldn't take that boat to the Bahamas. My Westerly 22 foot boat is very heavy and made to take lots of punishment. The rules for it are obviously different than for your vessel. I consider all small outboards problematic and subject to unforeseen problems... No matter how much you spend on one. A well maintained outboard engine should give minimal problems. Sails are not always perfect either, although I agree with you that they are the sailor's last recourse, something power boats cannot enjoy. It's a luxury on my larger boat's dingy, but I always carry oars. If you really want a small trailer-sailor that works well with its outboard, maybe you should have bought one of these: I'm not the trailer-sailor type. They are not very comfortable or secure in big waves and strong winds, and they usually cannot point very close to the wind. http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sa...fications.html |
Outboard recommendations for a San Juan 21
"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message ... For trailerable boats on small lakes, the rules are quite different from a fixed keel boat on the ocean or large lake. I also learned to sail on a Rhodes 19 with no engine, but I wouldn't take that boat to the Bahamas. My Westerly 22 foot boat is very heavy and made to take lots of punishment. The rules for it are obviously different than for your vessel. Your Westerly 22 is a very nice boat, and much different from my Catalina 22. I think you should feel safe in the Bahamas in your Westerly, but I wouldn't take my C across the gulf stream. The advice I offered was meant for a light trailerable boat such as Bruce's. I was raised in a sailing family that spent a few summers cruising from Tampa Bay to the Bahamas in a Tartan 27. My aging parents have moved up to a trawler, Which they now live on for a 3rd of the year. It's taken 30 years for my father to leave the well-maintained Tartan in my possession. The difference between my two boats is quite extreme, from standing room, to private head, and of course inboard vs outboard. Happy sailing, John. |
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