Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

I have a 93 model OMC (Cobra) IO. 5.8 Liter (351) Ford...
I have an issue with water emulsion. I have taken the heads off, exhaust,
intake and
even though there is water all over, there is no direct indication that the
head gaskets
are blown or any of the top engine components being damaged. Except for the
possibility of a cracked block, does anyone else have a idea how the water
could
be getting in? Is the water pump a suspect?

Any help at all would be appreciated.

Dave

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 04:08:08 GMT, "DMU" wrote:

I have a 93 model OMC (Cobra) IO. 5.8 Liter (351) Ford...
I have an issue with water emulsion. I have taken the heads off, exhaust,
intake and
even though there is water all over, there is no direct indication that the
head gaskets
are blown or any of the top engine components being damaged. Except for the
possibility of a cracked block, does anyone else have a idea how the water
could
be getting in? Is the water pump a suspect?

Any help at all would be appreciated.

Dave


Dave- the water pump is isolated from the engine "internals" by the
block and head gaskets. If you've already pulled things apart, it may
be more difficult to find the problem. When you re-assembled, did you
use new gaskets?

A compression check will usually determine if you have a warped head
or bad head gasket. You'll need a good mechanic to determine if
there's a crack in the block.

Good luck,
....carry on.
noah

To email me, please remove the "FISH" from the net.

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

Do any of the piston tops look particularly clean? If water is getting in
through the combustion chamber or exhaust manifolds the water will often
scour the top of some of the pistons real clean. It is unusual for the head
gaskets to just leak between the water and oil passages. Usually they blow
out from the combustion chamber. I'm guessing it's pretty old since it's a
351. Is it possible it froze last winter? Did it over heat badly at any
time? You can check the heads and block surface with a good steel straight
edge. I use one of those steel drafting rulers.

Water pump can not get water in the oil. The block, heads, head gasket, and
intake gasket are the only places that water and oil passages are in
proximity to each other. Water can also leak into the exhaust manifolds or
risers, then run down into the cylinders. There it will leak past the ring
gaps to the oil pan. Usually there are signs of water inside the exhaust or
in the cylinders. Cracks in the block will be on the insides of the
cylinder banks if the water is getting in the oil. That is the only place
there is water in the block. They are usually not too hard to spot on a
disassembled engine.


"DMU" wrote in message
...
I have a 93 model OMC (Cobra) IO. 5.8 Liter (351) Ford...
I have an issue with water emulsion. I have taken the heads off, exhaust,
intake and
even though there is water all over, there is no direct indication that
the
head gaskets
are blown or any of the top engine components being damaged. Except for
the
possibility of a cracked block, does anyone else have a idea how the water
could
be getting in? Is the water pump a suspect?

Any help at all would be appreciated.

Dave

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

Thanks Noah,

Actually the engine is still apart, and I had checked the components for
signs of water marks in the exhaust and intake manifolds. They were all
about the same in color, with no marks of rust anywhere. Prior to
dismantling the engine after I took it off the lake, I ran a hot compression
test. All the cylinders were within the book tolerance. The heads looked
clean too, with no traces of water leakage around any of the gaskets. It is
leading me to believe that the block may have a crack.

I live near Austin Texas, and the boat remains outside all year. It hardly
ever drops cold enough to be worried about freezing. As far as I know, the
engine has never overheated either. It has always ran around 160 degrees. I
never run it out of the lake unless I have a water system cooling the
engine.

I will take the heads, manifolds and risers down and let a machine shop go
over them. I'm afraid they may find nothing wrong, then what? Block??

Dave



"noah" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 04:08:08 GMT, "DMU" wrote:

I have a 93 model OMC (Cobra) IO. 5.8 Liter (351) Ford...
I have an issue with water emulsion. I have taken the heads off, exhaust,
intake and
even though there is water all over, there is no direct indication that
the
head gaskets
are blown or any of the top engine components being damaged. Except for
the
possibility of a cracked block, does anyone else have a idea how the
water
could
be getting in? Is the water pump a suspect?

Any help at all would be appreciated.

Dave


Dave- the water pump is isolated from the engine "internals" by the
block and head gaskets. If you've already pulled things apart, it may
be more difficult to find the problem. When you re-assembled, did you
use new gaskets?

A compression check will usually determine if you have a warped head
or bad head gasket. You'll need a good mechanic to determine if
there's a crack in the block.

Good luck,
...carry on.
noah

To email me, please remove the "FISH" from the net.

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

Thanks,

The pistons all had the same shade of black with none of them resembling
what you described. Black with no rust or water marks is all I saw. I wasn't
sure on this model if the water pump was isolated from the oil system or
not. Thanks for that info. The pistons are still in the block, as I have
torn down only the top part of the engine while it is still inside the boat.
I wanted to save the block removal for last in the event that no one finds
anything wrong with the top part of the engine. Looking at the exposed
cylinder walls, I see no visible cracks. I have not rotated the engine by
hand yet to check the rest, but will soon.

The engine is still apart, and I had checked the components for signs of
water marks in the exhaust and intake manifolds. They were all about the
same in color, with no marks of rust anywhere. Prior to dismantling the
engine after I took it off the lake, I ran a hot compression test. All the
cylinders were within the book tolerance. The heads looked clean too, with
no traces of water leakage around any of the gaskets. It is leading me to
believe that the block may have a crack. The engine ran fairly well too.

I live near Austin Texas, and the boat remains outside all year. It hardly
ever drops cold enough to be worried about freezing. As far as I know, the
engine has never overheated either. It has always ran around 160 degrees. I
never run it out of the lake unless I have a water system cooling the
engine.

I will take the heads, manifolds and risers down and let a machine shop go
over them. I'm afraid they may find nothing wrong, then what? Block??

BTW - This engine is a 1993 model. OMC Cobra. Kicks ass when it is running
good.

Dave

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Do any of the piston tops look particularly clean? If water is getting in
through the combustion chamber or exhaust manifolds the water will often
scour the top of some of the pistons real clean. It is unusual for the
head
gaskets to just leak between the water and oil passages. Usually they
blow
out from the combustion chamber. I'm guessing it's pretty old since it's
a
351. Is it possible it froze last winter? Did it over heat badly at any
time? You can check the heads and block surface with a good steel
straight
edge. I use one of those steel drafting rulers.

Water pump can not get water in the oil. The block, heads, head gasket,
and
intake gasket are the only places that water and oil passages are in
proximity to each other. Water can also leak into the exhaust manifolds
or
risers, then run down into the cylinders. There it will leak past the
ring
gaps to the oil pan. Usually there are signs of water inside the exhaust
or
in the cylinders. Cracks in the block will be on the insides of the
cylinder banks if the water is getting in the oil. That is the only place
there is water in the block. They are usually not too hard to spot on a
disassembled engine.


"DMU" wrote in message
...
I have a 93 model OMC (Cobra) IO. 5.8 Liter (351) Ford...
I have an issue with water emulsion. I have taken the heads off,
exhaust,
intake and
even though there is water all over, there is no direct indication that
the
head gaskets
are blown or any of the top engine components being damaged. Except for
the
possibility of a cracked block, does anyone else have a idea how the
water
could
be getting in? Is the water pump a suspect?

Any help at all would be appreciated.

Dave

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

You are mistaken about the water pump. Unlike small block Chevys, small block
Fords use a water pump design that has a common gasket with water and oil for
timing chain lubrication passing through. If this gasket fails, you will get
water in the oil.

Lawrence James wrote:

Do any of the piston tops look particularly clean? If water is getting in
through the combustion chamber or exhaust manifolds the water will often
scour the top of some of the pistons real clean. It is unusual for the head
gaskets to just leak between the water and oil passages. Usually they blow
out from the combustion chamber. I'm guessing it's pretty old since it's a
351. Is it possible it froze last winter? Did it over heat badly at any
time? You can check the heads and block surface with a good steel straight
edge. I use one of those steel drafting rulers.

Water pump can not get water in the oil. The block, heads, head gasket, and
intake gasket are the only places that water and oil passages are in
proximity to each other. Water can also leak into the exhaust manifolds or
risers, then run down into the cylinders. There it will leak past the ring
gaps to the oil pan. Usually there are signs of water inside the exhaust or
in the cylinders. Cracks in the block will be on the insides of the
cylinder banks if the water is getting in the oil. That is the only place
there is water in the block. They are usually not too hard to spot on a
disassembled engine.

"DMU" wrote in message
...
I have a 93 model OMC (Cobra) IO. 5.8 Liter (351) Ford...
I have an issue with water emulsion. I have taken the heads off, exhaust,
intake and
even though there is water all over, there is no direct indication that
the
head gaskets
are blown or any of the top engine components being damaged. Except for
the
possibility of a cracked block, does anyone else have a idea how the water
could
be getting in? Is the water pump a suspect?

Any help at all would be appreciated.

Dave

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

Awesome - Then that sucker is coming off next. Thanks

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
You are mistaken about the water pump. Unlike small block Chevys, small
block
Fords use a water pump design that has a common gasket with water and oil
for
timing chain lubrication passing through. If this gasket fails, you will
get
water in the oil.

Lawrence James wrote:

Do any of the piston tops look particularly clean? If water is getting
in
through the combustion chamber or exhaust manifolds the water will often
scour the top of some of the pistons real clean. It is unusual for the
head
gaskets to just leak between the water and oil passages. Usually they
blow
out from the combustion chamber. I'm guessing it's pretty old since
it's a
351. Is it possible it froze last winter? Did it over heat badly at
any
time? You can check the heads and block surface with a good steel
straight
edge. I use one of those steel drafting rulers.

Water pump can not get water in the oil. The block, heads, head gasket,
and
intake gasket are the only places that water and oil passages are in
proximity to each other. Water can also leak into the exhaust manifolds
or
risers, then run down into the cylinders. There it will leak past the
ring
gaps to the oil pan. Usually there are signs of water inside the
exhaust or
in the cylinders. Cracks in the block will be on the insides of the
cylinder banks if the water is getting in the oil. That is the only
place
there is water in the block. They are usually not too hard to spot on a
disassembled engine.

"DMU" wrote in message
...
I have a 93 model OMC (Cobra) IO. 5.8 Liter (351) Ford...
I have an issue with water emulsion. I have taken the heads off,
exhaust,
intake and
even though there is water all over, there is no direct indication
that
the
head gaskets
are blown or any of the top engine components being damaged. Except
for
the
possibility of a cracked block, does anyone else have a idea how the
water
could
be getting in? Is the water pump a suspect?

Any help at all would be appreciated.

Dave

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

When it happend to me it was rusted risers.

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of boats that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water leaking into the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility before you go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

That would explain why all the piston tops are clean too, check that intake
manifold out good, if it leaked to the inside of the fuel air chamber it
would go to all pistons, my block froze last winter and I have the 351, 1993
and the only thing that happened was the core plugs blew out. They do have a
big oil cooler on them that could be a remote possibility, I don't think it
is though, my oil cooler blew out and it looked fine inside on the water and
oil side (I soldered it back together, no problems) and I ride in only salt
water. I didn't read what u ride in? I was going to change the risers and
exhaust manifolds this yr. only about 400 hrs. on motor. If that water pump
is solid on the back and has just the 2 water passages I could see a problem
there, at gasket or pump housing as it looks as the back comes in contact
with the oil. was it allot of water in the oil? well it sounds like u are
getting allot of good remarks, GL figuring it out, I'm just a shade tree
auto. mech. trying to help. In NJ


"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water leaking into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility before you go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

The boat is EFI not carbed - but thanks.

"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water leaking into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility before you go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

When you look into the riser, wouldn't you see evidence of water (rust) in
the exhaust?

Dave

"Florida Keyz" wrote in message
...
When it happend to me it was rusted risers.

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

Bill,

A lot of good input. I will be busy this Saturday looking in to all this.
The Engine has only 212 hours on it, also a 1993. 4 years ago I did
have 2 freeze plugs blow out. I replaced them with the marine type.
The boat has been out several times since then. It has only been in
salt water once. Rest of the time it has been lake or river ran. The oil
gets changed every season, but this year water is filling up the sump fast
after only running it for a hour or so. I have pumped out a couple
gallons of sludge so far, and there is still more to go. My intake will be
pressure tested soon for leaks. I appreciate the time.

Thanks You

Dave


"Wildest Dream" wrote in message
et...
That would explain why all the piston tops are clean too, check that
intake
manifold out good, if it leaked to the inside of the fuel air chamber it
would go to all pistons, my block froze last winter and I have the 351,
1993
and the only thing that happened was the core plugs blew out. They do have
a
big oil cooler on them that could be a remote possibility, I don't think
it
is though, my oil cooler blew out and it looked fine inside on the water
and
oil side (I soldered it back together, no problems) and I ride in only
salt
water. I didn't read what u ride in? I was going to change the risers and
exhaust manifolds this yr. only about 400 hrs. on motor. If that water
pump
is solid on the back and has just the 2 water passages I could see a
problem
there, at gasket or pump housing as it looks as the back comes in contact
with the oil. was it allot of water in the oil? well it sounds like u are
getting allot of good remarks, GL figuring it out, I'm just a shade tree
auto. mech. trying to help. In NJ


"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water leaking into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility before you
go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

It still has an intake manifold for the air doesn't it?


"DMU" wrote in message
...
The boat is EFI not carbed - but thanks.

"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water leaking into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility before you
go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

Yes it does bill. But it is placed in such a manner that the water would
have to travel up hill in order to get to it. Plus a cover is over it like
an umbrella. Unless the rainfall fills up the engine compartment first.
There is no feasable way the water could enter through it. I believe a
manifold is to blame or I have a cracked block. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.


"Wildest Dream" wrote in message
. net...
It still has an intake manifold for the air doesn't it?


"DMU" wrote in message
...
The boat is EFI not carbed - but thanks.

"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of
boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water leaking
into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility before
you
go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

I have a mercruiser 4 cylinder that gets water in the oil ever season. The
boat is tarped and the engine cover is on and all entrances to the oil are
blocked. My understanding is that as condensation gets in and around that
area it can collect that way. Now mind you I live in Colorado so even
thought the boat is covered some water will drip through the tarp and wind
up in the bilge. With the cold tempters in the winter Ice will collect
around where the drain hole is and block the drain hole. So as it melts and
freezes there is allot of moisture in the air around the engine. I found
that I just had to drain the oil and replace it . Then put some penetrating
oil down the spark plug holes and let it sit for a few hours. Then it fired
right up. I ran it and let it get good and warm. Shut it off and flushed out
the oil again. It seems to be a spring ritual here with this boat.



"DMU" wrote in message
.. .
Yes it does bill. But it is placed in such a manner that the water would
have to travel up hill in order to get to it. Plus a cover is over it like
an umbrella. Unless the rainfall fills up the engine compartment first.
There is no feasable way the water could enter through it. I believe a
manifold is to blame or I have a cracked block. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.


"Wildest Dream" wrote in message
. net...
It still has an intake manifold for the air doesn't it?


"DMU" wrote in message
...
The boat is EFI not carbed - but thanks.

"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of
boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water leaking
into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility before
you
go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

Hi,

My specific issue is this. New season - change the oil and filter.
I take the boat and run it on the lake for about an hour.
Come home, check oil level, and wollah - The oil is 3/4 the
way up the dipstick, yellow and as thick as mud.
Change the emusified oil and filter. Put new clean stuff in, take
the boat back to the lake the following day, and the same thing repeats.
The engine starts spitting the gunk out of the PVC tube and from
here, things get nasty. I understand condensation, but when I put
6 quarts of oil in and get 2.5 gallons out, there is something wrong.
It is not that humid here in central Texas. lol

Sometimes I wished I still lived in Colerado Springs. sigh

Dave

"Greg Boyles" wrote in message
. net...
I have a mercruiser 4 cylinder that gets water in the oil ever season. The
boat is tarped and the engine cover is on and all entrances to the oil are
blocked. My understanding is that as condensation gets in and around that
area it can collect that way. Now mind you I live in Colorado so even
thought the boat is covered some water will drip through the tarp and wind
up in the bilge. With the cold tempters in the winter Ice will collect
around where the drain hole is and block the drain hole. So as it melts
and
freezes there is allot of moisture in the air around the engine. I found
that I just had to drain the oil and replace it . Then put some
penetrating
oil down the spark plug holes and let it sit for a few hours. Then it
fired
right up. I ran it and let it get good and warm. Shut it off and flushed
out
the oil again. It seems to be a spring ritual here with this boat.



"DMU" wrote in message
.. .
Yes it does bill. But it is placed in such a manner that the water would
have to travel up hill in order to get to it. Plus a cover is over it
like
an umbrella. Unless the rainfall fills up the engine compartment first.
There is no feasable way the water could enter through it. I believe a
manifold is to blame or I have a cracked block. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.


"Wildest Dream" wrote in message
. net...
It still has an intake manifold for the air doesn't it?


"DMU" wrote in message
...
The boat is EFI not carbed - but thanks.

"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot of
boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water
leaking
into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility
before
you
go
any further....

Bill

Ford 351 OMC Taking on Water (Water in oil)
 

The water pump was pulled today. The pump itself has no oil ports, however
the timing chain cover does, and showed some rust on the gasket.
I decided to purchase a cherry picker and engine stand today. I am going on
a business trip and will be back the 13th of November. The engine will
be removed then and dismantled totally for inspection. I discovered that the
bolts holding on the water pump timing chain cover were loose.
I pray that was the problem, but hell. I got it almost all the way tore down
now. Doing it all the way. Thanks for all the help guys...

Dave

"DMU" wrote in message
...
Hi,

My specific issue is this. New season - change the oil and filter.
I take the boat and run it on the lake for about an hour.
Come home, check oil level, and wollah - The oil is 3/4 the
way up the dipstick, yellow and as thick as mud.
Change the emusified oil and filter. Put new clean stuff in, take
the boat back to the lake the following day, and the same thing repeats.
The engine starts spitting the gunk out of the PVC tube and from
here, things get nasty. I understand condensation, but when I put
6 quarts of oil in and get 2.5 gallons out, there is something wrong.
It is not that humid here in central Texas. lol

Sometimes I wished I still lived in Colerado Springs. sigh

Dave

"Greg Boyles" wrote in message
. net...
I have a mercruiser 4 cylinder that gets water in the oil ever season.
The
boat is tarped and the engine cover is on and all entrances to the oil
are
blocked. My understanding is that as condensation gets in and around
that
area it can collect that way. Now mind you I live in Colorado so even
thought the boat is covered some water will drip through the tarp and
wind
up in the bilge. With the cold tempters in the winter Ice will collect
around where the drain hole is and block the drain hole. So as it melts
and
freezes there is allot of moisture in the air around the engine. I found
that I just had to drain the oil and replace it . Then put some
penetrating
oil down the spark plug holes and let it sit for a few hours. Then it
fired
right up. I ran it and let it get good and warm. Shut it off and flushed
out
the oil again. It seems to be a spring ritual here with this boat.



"DMU" wrote in message
.. .
Yes it does bill. But it is placed in such a manner that the water
would
have to travel up hill in order to get to it. Plus a cover is over it
like
an umbrella. Unless the rainfall fills up the engine compartment
first.
There is no feasable way the water could enter through it. I believe a
manifold is to blame or I have a cracked block. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.


"Wildest Dream" wrote in message
. net...
It still has an intake manifold for the air doesn't it?


"DMU" wrote in message
...
The boat is EFI not carbed - but thanks.

"Bill Sheffield" wrote in message
...
You say that the boat is stored outside..... I have seen a lot
of
boats
that
have water in the oil. Sometimes it is caused by rain water
leaking
into
the
motor box and running down the carb. Check this possibility
before
you
go
any further....

Bill