"Canuck57" wrote in message ...

On 31/12/2011 6:44 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In ,
says...


I suppose that is why I always stay off the "bleeding edge" of
technology.
I keep trying to make an electric car work for me but I can't make the
numbers work. I was serious about "electricing up" my Prelude since a
Civic kit is pretty much off the shelf parts. If the kit was free, and
I didn't count the electricity, batteries kill the economics. Buying
14 golf cart batteries every 3 years will not get me far enough in my
daily buzzing around to pay for the gas I use. A higher tech battery
only makes that problem worse.


If they can make the battery last a lot longer, for the price of lead
and make it lighter, safer and reliable in cold weather, capable of
really fast charging, they will have something.


All the same could be said of portable power drills.
Nissan Leaf and Tesla are electric cars.
The Volt is a plug-in hybrid, not an electric car.
It's strengths and limitations are well advertised.
The marketplace will decide.


Then put all of that in a car for less than $15,000 if you want to
really sell many.
If someone has $40,000, they are buying a Lincoln, Caddy or a low end
Benz, not an econobox

Many people wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln, MB or Caddy.
I'm one of them.
Marketplace again.
As always, price - and fortune - will tell the story.
A ten grand drop in price and a 2 buck rise in gas changes everything.

Would take more than that. Lets so some math, a 12 year TCO and use a
F150 V8 and lets say 240KM of travel.

Volt shock:
$40K capital
3 battery replacements, $8K each
37 mpg in gas mode. 36 kWh per 100 miles, 75% transfer efficiency
No A/C, no heat, no lights driving.
Resale, nil.
$40k + 24K + (cost of electricity * 120,000 + cost of gas for 120,000)
Cost of gas per 100 miles is about $8.10 at $3 gallon
Cost of electric for 100 miles is about $14.40 @ 30 cents per KWH 75%
efficient transfer.

Tata Nano (India)
$3,500 capital
3 needed for 240,000
54 mpg

F150
$30K capital
1 battery replacement for $100 installed at Costco/Sams Club.
20 mpg
A/C and heat work and lights don't make a big mpg difference.
Resale, $1000.
$30K + $100 + (cost of gas for 240,000) - 1500.
Cost of gas for 100 miles is $15 @3 gallon

Gas at $3 gallon, electricity at 30 cents a KWH after utility taxes.
Volt TCO ~= $81K
F150 TCO ~= $66K
Nano TCO ~= $25K

Gas at $6 gallon, electricity at 30 cents a KWH after utility taxes.
Volt TCO ~= $101K (assuming electric does not go up too)
F150 TCO ~= $102K
Nano TCO ~= $39K

Gas at $12 gallon, electricity at 30 cents a KWH after utility taxes.
Volt TCO ~= $119K (assuming electric does not go up too)
F150 TCO ~= $178K
Nano TCO ~= $67K

The above very much favors Volt too, it is absolute favoritism to the
Volt electricity cost stays the same if gas hits $12 gallon, you don't
think electricity is going to be 30 KWH?

Fact is even with the most favored GM Volt math, $6 gallon is minimum to
justify a Volt. More if you value A/C, boat towing or can avoid a
second car because a F150 does it all.

But for the real green, get them Nano's. At $12 allon they are 1/2 the
cost of a volt and have a longer range. Heat and A/C available too.

Fact is GM Volt is a stupid waste of taxpayers money, true to the name
of Government Motors. And Americans pay millions for CEOs that can't do
high school math. I am not saying my math is perfect, but close enough
to show the Volt as a shocking waste of money for Governemtn Motors and
for consumers.

I will keep my F150 until at least $12 gallon.
--
No mater how liberally you try to ignore rationality and reality,
reality always wins in the end.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ford is rumored to be dropping hybrids next year. Better mileage at less
cost with a fueled engine.

On 03/01/2012 9:47 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Canuck57" wrote in message ...

On 31/12/2011 6:44 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In ,
says...


I suppose that is why I always stay off the "bleeding edge" of
technology.
I keep trying to make an electric car work for me but I can't make the
numbers work. I was serious about "electricing up" my Prelude since a
Civic kit is pretty much off the shelf parts. If the kit was free, and
I didn't count the electricity, batteries kill the economics. Buying
14 golf cart batteries every 3 years will not get me far enough in my
daily buzzing around to pay for the gas I use. A higher tech battery
only makes that problem worse.


If they can make the battery last a lot longer, for the price of lead
and make it lighter, safer and reliable in cold weather, capable of
really fast charging, they will have something.


All the same could be said of portable power drills.
Nissan Leaf and Tesla are electric cars.
The Volt is a plug-in hybrid, not an electric car.
It's strengths and limitations are well advertised.
The marketplace will decide.


Then put all of that in a car for less than $15,000 if you want to
really sell many.
If someone has $40,000, they are buying a Lincoln, Caddy or a low end
Benz, not an econobox

Many people wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln, MB or Caddy.
I'm one of them.
Marketplace again.
As always, price - and fortune - will tell the story.
A ten grand drop in price and a 2 buck rise in gas changes everything.

Would take more than that. Lets so some math, a 12 year TCO and use a
F150 V8 and lets say 240KM of travel.

Volt shock:
$40K capital
3 battery replacements, $8K each
37 mpg in gas mode. 36 kWh per 100 miles, 75% transfer efficiency
No A/C, no heat, no lights driving.
Resale, nil.
$40k + 24K + (cost of electricity * 120,000 + cost of gas for 120,000)
Cost of gas per 100 miles is about $8.10 at $3 gallon
Cost of electric for 100 miles is about $14.40 @ 30 cents per KWH 75%
efficient transfer.

Tata Nano (India)
$3,500 capital
3 needed for 240,000
54 mpg

F150
$30K capital
1 battery replacement for $100 installed at Costco/Sams Club.
20 mpg
A/C and heat work and lights don't make a big mpg difference.
Resale, $1000.
$30K + $100 + (cost of gas for 240,000) - 1500.
Cost of gas for 100 miles is $15 @3 gallon

Gas at $3 gallon, electricity at 30 cents a KWH after utility taxes.
Volt TCO ~= $81K
F150 TCO ~= $66K
Nano TCO ~= $25K

Gas at $6 gallon, electricity at 30 cents a KWH after utility taxes.
Volt TCO ~= $101K (assuming electric does not go up too)
F150 TCO ~= $102K
Nano TCO ~= $39K

Gas at $12 gallon, electricity at 30 cents a KWH after utility taxes.
Volt TCO ~= $119K (assuming electric does not go up too)
F150 TCO ~= $178K
Nano TCO ~= $67K

The above very much favors Volt too, it is absolute favoritism to the
Volt electricity cost stays the same if gas hits $12 gallon, you don't
think electricity is going to be 30 KWH?

Fact is even with the most favored GM Volt math, $6 gallon is minimum to
justify a Volt. More if you value A/C, boat towing or can avoid a
second car because a F150 does it all.

But for the real green, get them Nano's. At $12 allon they are 1/2 the
cost of a volt and have a longer range. Heat and A/C available too.

Fact is GM Volt is a stupid waste of taxpayers money, true to the name
of Government Motors. And Americans pay millions for CEOs that can't do
high school math. I am not saying my math is perfect, but close enough
to show the Volt as a shocking waste of money for Governemtn Motors and
for consumers.

I will keep my F150 until at least $12 gallon.
--
No mater how liberally you try to ignore rationality and reality,
reality always wins in the end.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ford is rumored to be dropping hybrids next year. Better mileage at
less cost with a fueled engine.

And lower cost.

Tata Nano being deprived of the American market because of corrupt union
and political BS.

Hey, if Ford makes something remotely like this in a cost effective
manner, could be a GM killer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

And with the Focus, it was on the right track.

--
No mater how liberally you try to ignore rationality and reality,
reality always wins in the end.