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David Ditch October 7th 03 01:22 AM

new boat buying process
 
Is there a written process to new boat buying that someone may have on thier
website?

I have narrowed my new boat choice to 3 or 4 brands.
I've checked out some of them at a boat show and will be attending another
before I'll be going to the Dealer's locations.

How much time will I want to spend at each dealer before I decide on the
boat?
Once I decide on a boat, do I get a test drive in a demo?
It the boat is not on location and it needs to be ordered, how much of a
deposit to expect?
How long are factory lead times typically on a 21-23' cuddy?
Do I need a surveyer for a new boat?

Serious replys only please

Thanks in advance!

David



Clams Canino October 7th 03 01:52 AM

new boat buying process
 
You're gonna get some piecemeal answers. Here's my part:

Make SURE you have an understanding that "teething problems" will be dealt
with like they are an emergency. I've seen many a new boat sit languishing
at the dealers to get silly little outfitting and rigging problems reworked.
Even when I did all the re-rigging of my new hull. I still had teething
problems and the resulting punch list - mostly left over from when it was
new. Except that I introduced a new one also.

I didn't tighten the nut far enough (by about 1.5 turns) in the shift cable
retainer in the motor. About 2 days into use - I put it in reverse and the
cable managed to jump out because the retainer had turned a bit. No big deal
for *me*, but that would be a trip to the shop (and tow to ramp) for an
"end-user". A five minute fix like that of a silly rigging error should be
done for a new boat owner on the spot - not via a long wait.

My new tachometer didn't work properly and I had to get it exchanged for a
new one. My battery had discharged too far (listening to the radio while
rigging the hull) and I popped the rectifier going to WOT right away while
the battery was presenting a dead load to the system. My glovebox cooler
was improperly mounted at the factory and "fell in". The snap in rugs didn't
have stainless screws holding the snaps into the floor. I had to remount the
ski-tower because no adhesive was used. A missing snap on the bimini. Etc
Etc.

Bottom line: My boat would have spent a LOT of time at the shop to get
silly stuff fixed, if I wasn't "the shop" LOL. It had quite a "punch
list" and would have had a LOT of downtime.

I took note of this so I could impress people like *you* of the fact that
you need make SURE the dealer understands *your* punch list is an EMERGENCY.
If not you'll lose weeks of water time, I've seen some people lose MONTHS.

-W


"David Ditch" wrote in message
...
Is there a written process to new boat buying that someone may have on

thier
website?

I have narrowed my new boat choice to 3 or 4 brands.
I've checked out some of them at a boat show and will be attending another
before I'll be going to the Dealer's locations.

How much time will I want to spend at each dealer before I decide on the
boat?
Once I decide on a boat, do I get a test drive in a demo?
It the boat is not on location and it needs to be ordered, how much of a
deposit to expect?
How long are factory lead times typically on a 21-23' cuddy?
Do I need a surveyer for a new boat?

Serious replys only please

Thanks in advance!

David





David Ditch October 7th 03 02:16 AM

new boat buying process
 
I guess thats a good reason to buy early in the season :)
Are factories still making these kinds of mistakes?

David
"Clams Canino" wrote in message
news:C7ogb.694936$Ho3.150368@sccrnsc03...
You're gonna get some piecemeal answers. Here's my part:

Make SURE you have an understanding that "teething problems" will be dealt
with like they are an emergency. I've seen many a new boat sit

languishing
at the dealers to get silly little outfitting and rigging problems

reworked.
Even when I did all the re-rigging of my new hull. I still had teething
problems and the resulting punch list - mostly left over from when it was
new. Except that I introduced a new one also.

I didn't tighten the nut far enough (by about 1.5 turns) in the shift

cable
retainer in the motor. About 2 days into use - I put it in reverse and the
cable managed to jump out because the retainer had turned a bit. No big

deal
for *me*, but that would be a trip to the shop (and tow to ramp) for an
"end-user". A five minute fix like that of a silly rigging error should

be
done for a new boat owner on the spot - not via a long wait.

My new tachometer didn't work properly and I had to get it exchanged for a
new one. My battery had discharged too far (listening to the radio while
rigging the hull) and I popped the rectifier going to WOT right away while
the battery was presenting a dead load to the system. My glovebox cooler
was improperly mounted at the factory and "fell in". The snap in rugs

didn't
have stainless screws holding the snaps into the floor. I had to remount

the
ski-tower because no adhesive was used. A missing snap on the bimini. Etc
Etc.

Bottom line: My boat would have spent a LOT of time at the shop to get
silly stuff fixed, if I wasn't "the shop" LOL. It had quite a "punch
list" and would have had a LOT of downtime.

I took note of this so I could impress people like *you* of the fact that
you need make SURE the dealer understands *your* punch list is an

EMERGENCY.
If not you'll lose weeks of water time, I've seen some people lose MONTHS.

-W


"David Ditch" wrote in message
...
Is there a written process to new boat buying that someone may have on

thier
website?

I have narrowed my new boat choice to 3 or 4 brands.
I've checked out some of them at a boat show and will be attending

another
before I'll be going to the Dealer's locations.

How much time will I want to spend at each dealer before I decide on the
boat?
Once I decide on a boat, do I get a test drive in a demo?
It the boat is not on location and it needs to be ordered, how much of a
deposit to expect?
How long are factory lead times typically on a 21-23' cuddy?
Do I need a surveyer for a new boat?

Serious replys only please

Thanks in advance!

David







Gould 0738 October 7th 03 02:26 AM

new boat buying process
 
How much time will I want to spend at each dealer before I decide on the
boat?


Strictly up to you. But spend enough time to evaluate the *boat* rather than
the glossy brochures, the bought-and-paid-for
customer satisfaction surveys, etc. Forget the "my boat is better than their
boat" hype and see for yourself.

Once I decide on a boat, do I get a test drive in a demo?


You should *insist* if such a ride isn't voluntarily offered. You may be asked
to put up a deposit and make a deal "subject to" a satisfactory test
run....it's just a way to prevent the a long line of folks with fishing rods
and picnic baskets showing up every Saturday morning to "test drive" a boat.
:-)

Make sure you either get a demo in a boat powered the way you are ordering your
new boat, or have a "satisfactory redemo" clause in the contract if that isn't
possible.
If you buy a boat with 100 fewer horses than the boat you tested- you may or
may not be happy with it but one thing is certain- it will behave and perform a
lot differently.

It the boat is not on location and it needs to be ordered, how much of a
deposit to expect?


Are you going to be financing the boat? If so, it wouldn't be ridiculous for
the dealer to ask for enough of a deposit to make the
minimum down payment needed to finance the boat. Don't expect many dealers to
order a boat for you based on a handshake, or a $100 bill. There's a lot of
expense to the dealer in ordering a boat- particularly one that might be
slightly different from their ordinary stock if that's what requires it to be
ordered in the first place. The more oddball you order the boat, the bigger the
deposit you may be asked to make. The dealer will want something to fall back
on if he calls you up when the boat arrives and you say, "Oh, sorry! Meant to
call you! We changed our minds and bought a motorhome instead."

How long are factory lead times typically on a 21-23' cuddy?


Will vary from almost none to several months. A high production company like
Brunswick or Genmar should be able to get a boat to you relatively quickly.
Some limited production, semi custom builder may have a long waiting list.


Do I need a surveyer for a new boat?


For a new 21-23 cuddy? Most likely you can rely on the factory
warranty....BUT...
a surveyor can spot errors in setup, etc, that you might overlook. A survey on
a new boat is like putting on a belt to
back up your suspenders. (Exceptions are very complex boats or custom
construction)........not a bad idea, but not as essential as with used. Don't
expect the dealer or the builder to modify the basic design of the boat due to
surveyor critcique, just stuff that might have been done in manner that doesn't
meet normal standards for that brand.

A couple of years ago, we had a story here about some people who bought a new
boat down in SF. The live well had been misplumbed, but nobody knew. The new
owners didn't do any sort of shake down cruise, but headed for serious water
right away. The boat all but sank, and bad advice from the seller made the
situation even worse. There's a possiblity that a surveyor *might* have spotted
the misplumbed pump.



Wayne.B October 7th 03 02:56 AM

new boat buying process
 
On 07 Oct 2003 01:26:21 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

A couple of years ago, we had a story here about some people who bought a new
boat down in SF. The live well had been misplumbed, but nobody knew. The new
owners didn't do any sort of shake down cruise, but headed for serious water
right away. The boat all but sank, and bad advice from the seller made the
situation even worse.


============================

That's a terrible story Chuck. What knid of boat was it?


Clams Canino October 7th 03 02:58 AM

new boat buying process
 
Bayliner Trophy. That one really added to "the legend"........... LOL

-W

"Wayne.B" wrote in message

That's a terrible story Chuck. What knid of boat was it?




Harry Krause October 7th 03 03:09 AM

new boat buying process
 
Clams Canino wrote:
Bayliner Trophy. That one really added to "the legend"........... LOL

-W

"Wayne.B" wrote in message

That's a terrible story Chuck. What knid of boat was it?





Shhhhhh. Bob will burst a blood vessel...


Wayne.B October 7th 03 03:14 AM

new boat buying process
 
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 01:58:34 GMT, "Clams Canino"
wrote:

Bayliner Trophy. That one really added to "the legend"........... LOL

-W


============================

Well, that's how reputations are made and lost.

http://tinyurl.com/pyt0


Gould 0738 October 7th 03 03:30 AM

new boat buying process
 
That's a terrible story Chuck. What knid of boat was it?

A fish boat with a misplumbed baitwell.

Could have been built by anybody.

The problem with focusing on the brand name is that people might then assume,
"As long as I avoid brand X, I won't have to take many precautions." Could
have, and undoubtedly has happened to boats built by other companies, too.



Larry October 7th 03 03:13 PM

new boat buying process
 
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:14:41 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 01:58:34 GMT, "Clams Canino"
wrote:

Bayliner Trophy. That one really added to "the legend"........... LOL

-W


============================

Well, that's how reputations are made and lost.

http://tinyurl.com/pyt0


Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com

Larry October 7th 03 03:22 PM

new boat buying process
 
On 07 Oct 2003 02:30:36 GMT, Gould 0738 wrote:

That's a terrible story Chuck. What knid of boat was it?


A fish boat with a misplumbed baitwell.

Could have been built by anybody.

The problem with focusing on the brand name is that people might then assume,
"As long as I avoid brand X, I won't have to take many precautions." Could
have, and undoubtedly has happened to boats built by other companies, too.



True enough, but would other companies have treated the owners so badly?

I recently (this July) bought a SeaDoo Utopia 185 from Profile Motorsports
in Gorham, NH. That is an 18 1/2 foot jet boat powered by a Mercury 200
hp. After checking it out at a nearby lake, I started trailering it to
several lakes in Maine. In early August, the engine quit in the middle of
Rangeley Lake. I tried to figure out what was wrong, but had no luck.
Finally (and fortunately) I got a tow back to the launch site. I took the
boat back to the dealer where they discovered that one of the air injectors
had broken off inside one of the cylinders, scored the piston and destroyed
the cylinder head. The dealer insisted on replacing the engine, and while
the work was being done, he loaned me a new Utopia 205, a more expensive
boat than mine. While it left me with a bad taste for Mercury, I was
impressed that Bombardier and their dealer treated me as well as they did.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com

Gould 0738 October 7th 03 03:42 PM

new boat buying process
 
True enough, but would other companies have treated the owners so badly?

The mishandling of the situation can be laid at the doorstep of the individual
sales agency. The builder was responsible for the original error, the error in
judgment and
in customer relations was the result of dealing with a particular branch of a
particular business. It's like any other product. If you bought a Buick from a
bad
dealer it reflects most directly on the dealer and not at all on the Buick
factory; but it is likely to leave you, individually, somewhat soured on buying
another Buick. Did the guy who bought a Buick from the dealer on the other side
of town get screwed or get a "bad car" because that dealer's competitor is a
schmuck? Of course not.



Gould 0738 October 7th 03 03:51 PM

new boat buying process
 
Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--


And sadly enough, we can see why Bayliner *is* poorly regarded- by some.

Always so easily convinced after hearing just one side of a story?

The problem was a combination of 1) a misplumbed boat 2) operator error and
bad judgment 3) dealer error and bad judgment. All of those factors are
evident in the story as told by the consumer, yet people who feel the insecure
need to prove that their particular mass-pro little plastic runabout is vastly
superior to somebody else's little mass-pro runabout seem to concentrate only
on the product portion. Probably 100 major and minor systems on a boat like
that, one is screwed up, and every boat ever built by the same company is a
"piece of crap"?

Hold all products up to that same standard, and you will never be able to buy
anything.

Clams Canino October 7th 03 05:11 PM

new boat buying process
 
Yep, it was the single "worst case scenario" of a "teething problem" I've
heard. Well, at least where everyone lived to talk about it. Stuff like that
happens with any new boat or product, only problem is, Bayliner has one of
those names that just keep "popping up". They sure didn't need the press
from this gaffe.

It doesn't change my opinion that they're just an entry level boat to get
your feet wet.
(yes I get the joke - I wrote it)

-W



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

The problem was a combination of 1) a misplumbed boat 2) operator error

and
bad judgment 3) dealer error and bad judgment.




Wayne.B October 7th 03 05:29 PM

new boat buying process
 
On 07 Oct 2003 14:42:09 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
True enough, but would other companies have treated the owners so badly?


The mishandling of the situation can be laid at the doorstep of the individual
sales agency. The builder was responsible for the original error, the error in
judgment and
in customer relations was the result of dealing with a particular branch of a
particular business. It's like any other product. If you bought a Buick from a
bad
dealer it reflects most directly on the dealer and not at all on the Buick
factory; but it is likely to leave you, individually, somewhat soured on buying
another Buick. Did the guy who bought a Buick from the dealer on the other side
of town get screwed or get a "bad car" because that dealer's competitor is a
schmuck? Of course not.

==============================

Manufacturers in ANY business have a responsibility to their customers
to ensure that dealers are chosen carefully and held to high
standards. For most customers the dealer is the only part of the
corporation they ever see.




Gould 0738 October 7th 03 05:55 PM

new boat buying process
 
Manufacturers in ANY business have a responsibility to their customers
to ensure that dealers are chosen carefully and held to high
standards. For most customers the dealer is the only part of the
corporation they ever see.


I agree completely. I have been a (new car) dealer. So, how do we judge a
dealer and his business? By the first high profile incident where some rude
salesperson or incompetant manager makes a critical mistake? Be assured that's
the incident the public *will* hear about. Or, do we take into account the
numbers of folks who go away quietly satisfied and happily return in a few
years to buy a newer or nicer model?

Think of the dumbest or most embarrassing thing you ever did. Would it be fair
to take that incident and use to characterize you, as an individual, for all
time? Or would it be more accurate to note that it was a tragic exception to an
otherwise fairly OK situation?

The builders do have a pretty good handle on who the truly rotten dealers are.
Their info may vary from an unsubstantiated, one-sided horror story flushed
down the Internet by a PO'd buyer with an obvious agenda.



Wayne.B October 7th 03 06:24 PM

new boat buying process
 
On 07 Oct 2003 16:55:57 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
The builders do have a pretty good handle on who the truly rotten dealers are.
Their info may vary from an unsubstantiated, one-sided horror story flushed
down the Internet by a PO'd buyer with an obvious agenda.


========================

I have this old fashioned notion that the standard should be somewhere
higher than "truly rotten". Just my humble opinion of course.


Gould 0738 October 7th 03 06:41 PM

new boat buying process
 
I have this old fashioned notion that the standard should be somewhere
higher than "truly rotten". Just my humble opinion of course.


Don't concentrate too heavily on my choice of adjectives. I believe the idea is
sound.

Every person and every business makes mistakes. It is normal to *include* such
mistakes when evaluating overall performance, but not good practice to ignore
all the positive aspects at the same time. If we extended the "negative only"
standard to every other aspect of life, no friendship would survive the first
disagreement, no job would last beyond the first mistake, and no marriage would
endure long beyond the honeymoon.

The individual boat in question was badly plumbed. Because it was *not*
consistent with the builder's standards it did not meet the customer's
reasonable expectations.
How amazing that John Q. Public sees this as a case that somehow *establishes*
that the builder's standard must be to misplumb the live well.

The unhappy customer was bitching *because* the boat was substandard, not
because it was representative of what most people should expect when buying
that make or model.




On 07 Oct 2003 16:55:57 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
The builders do have a pretty good handle on who the truly rotten dealers

are.
Their info may vary from an unsubstantiated, one-sided horror story flushed
down the Internet by a PO'd buyer with an obvious agenda.


========================

I have this old fashioned notion that the standard should be somewhere
higher than "truly rotten". Just my humble opinion of course.










Bob D. October 7th 03 07:34 PM

new boat buying process
 


Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--


I can't argue with the boat. I'd probably try cutting the sailmans hair
by sticking his head under my prop. As for the the comment about
company, I guess each of use chooses to how much mental capacity we wish
to devote or be devoid of towards fair analysis or jumping to conclusions.

Bob Dimond

Bob D. October 7th 03 07:36 PM

new boat buying process
 
As with most other posts by you, well said. Sadly whether it's a 50' Seay
Ray, or a 14' duck boat, we rarely if ever get the quality we see in other
products.

In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--


And sadly enough, we can see why Bayliner *is* poorly regarded- by some.

Always so easily convinced after hearing just one side of a story?

The problem was a combination of 1) a misplumbed boat 2) operator error and
bad judgment 3) dealer error and bad judgment. All of those factors are
evident in the story as told by the consumer, yet people who feel the insecure
need to prove that their particular mass-pro little plastic runabout is vastly
superior to somebody else's little mass-pro runabout seem to concentrate only
on the product portion. Probably 100 major and minor systems on a boat like
that, one is screwed up, and every boat ever built by the same company is a
"piece of crap"?

Hold all products up to that same standard, and you will never be able to buy
anything.


Larry October 9th 03 04:51 PM

new boat buying process
 
On 07 Oct 2003 14:42:09 GMT, Gould 0738 wrote:

True enough, but would other companies have treated the owners so badly?


The mishandling of the situation can be laid at the doorstep of the individual
sales agency. The builder was responsible for the original error, the error in
judgment and
in customer relations was the result of dealing with a particular branch of a
particular business. It's like any other product. If you bought a Buick from a
bad
dealer it reflects most directly on the dealer and not at all on the Buick
factory; but it is likely to leave you, individually, somewhat soured on buying
another Buick. Did the guy who bought a Buick from the dealer on the other side
of town get screwed or get a "bad car" because that dealer's competitor is a
schmuck? Of course not.


Yes, but if the story is true (and I have no basis to believe it isn't),
then there is plenty of guilt to go around, both to the dealer and the
company who manufactured it. Luckily for me, in my case at least, I was
treated well by both: Profile Motorsports and Bombardier. In essence, the
fault belonged to neither: Mercury manufactured the motor, but I had no
contact with them. Apparently, the dealer wanted to keep me happy, and the
manufacture wanted to keep the dealer happy.

--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com

Gould 0738 October 9th 03 05:02 PM

new boat buying process
 
Yes, but if the story is true (and I have no basis to believe it isn't),
then there is plenty of guilt to go around, both to the dealer and the
company who manufactured it. Luckily for me, in my case at least, I was
treated well by both: Profile Motorsports and Bombardier. In essence, the
fault belonged to neither: Mercury manufactured the motor, but I had no
contact with them. Apparently, the dealer wanted to keep me happy, and the
manufacture wanted to keep the dealer happy.

--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com



IIRC, this whole incident happened on a weekend, and before Monday morning the
outraged consumer had already waded in to the Internet with a story of woe.
That was the last we heard from the consumer.
Could it be that when managment got its hands on the situation things got
straightened out pretty quickly?

Bob D. October 9th 03 07:12 PM

new boat buying process
 
Hey.... What kind of disinfomercial is this? :^)


In article e5pgb.509482$Oz4.363162@rwcrnsc54, "Clams Canino"
wrote:

Bayliner Trophy. That one really added to "the legend"........... LOL

-W

"Wayne.B" wrote in message

That's a terrible story Chuck. What knid of boat was it?


Larry October 14th 03 04:47 PM

new boat buying process
 
On 07 Oct 2003 14:51:29 GMT, Gould 0738 wrote:

Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.
--


And sadly enough, we can see why Bayliner *is* poorly regarded- by some.

Always so easily convinced after hearing just one side of a story?


No, this represents yet one more disaster concerning Bayliner. I have yet
to read any post extolling their virtues. Maybe that says something.

The problem was a combination of 1) a misplumbed boat 2) operator error and
bad judgment 3) dealer error and bad judgment. All of those factors are
evident in the story as told by the consumer, yet people who feel the insecure
need to prove that their particular mass-pro little plastic runabout is vastly
superior to somebody else's little mass-pro runabout seem to concentrate only
on the product portion. Probably 100 major and minor systems on a boat like
that, one is screwed up, and every boat ever built by the same company is a
"piece of crap"?

Hold all products up to that same standard, and you will never be able to buy
anything.


I think you're reading a lot more into my post than I put there.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com

Gould 0738 October 14th 03 06:19 PM

new boat buying process
 
No, this represents yet one more disaster concerning Bayliner. I have yet
to read any post extolling their virtues. Maybe that says something.


It says you don't know where to look.

Run a search engine on the Bayliner Owners Group. You'll find hundreds of happy
and satisfied Bayliner owners there.

Ever notice that most of the Bayliner horror stories are second hand, and told
by people who don't own one? (The misplumbed baitwell is an exception, it's not
second hand).

Human nature works like this: I sell you something, and tell you it's going to
give you good service and you will have a satisfactory ownership experience.
Over time, that proves to be true and so you tell *nobody*. Why should you? You
paid good money for a product with the assurance that you would be completely
or generally satisfied, that expectation is realized, and so it's not news. No
big deal. You wound up with what you thought you were going to get.

However, if I sell you something with the assurance that you will find the
ownership experience satisfactory and you are unhappy with the product you are
far more liekly to tell anybody willing to listen just how badly you were
treated, how screwed up the product is, why everything every sold by such and
such a retailer or built by
such and such a factory is a POS, etc.

Bayliner is no different than most products.
If it somes up in casual conversation, it's most likely because somebody feels
compelled to bitch and moan. The satisfied
people are too busy enjoying (any) product to waste time telling everybody how
happy they are.



I think you're reading a lot more into my post than I put there.


Not at all:

Here's exactly how you reacted to the story-


Wow, what a story! Now I know why Bayliner is so poorly regarded. What a
piece of crap - both the boat and the company. Thanks for sharing.


"Now I know"?

Don't hop my case for observing:

And sadly enough, we can see why Bayliner *is* poorly regarded- by some.

Always so easily convinced after hearing just one side of a story?




Bob D. October 14th 03 06:46 PM

new boat buying process
 
In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

No, this represents yet one more disaster concerning Bayliner. I have yet
to read any post extolling their virtues. Maybe that says something.


It says you don't know where to look.



Don't waste your breath, Gould. It's more likely that he doesn't want to
hear any positive Bayliner anectdotes. After all, doing so would be to
risk modifying his opinion which would indicate that he is not
infallible. Something that a few people in this group have a problem
accepting.

As I've stated Bayliner may not be the first choice for many boaters, and
I will conceed that it may not even be a viable choice for some
applications (I still don't know this as fact but, will at least consider
it a reasonable possibility), but I have yet to see any evidence to
support this viewpoints such as Bayliners are "a piece of crap - both the
boat and the company"

Besides the human nature attributes you cited, add "People tend to stick
to their initial biases, despite new information" to that list.

Bob Dimond

Clams Canino October 14th 03 07:57 PM

new boat buying process
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
IIRC, this whole incident happened on a weekend, and before Monday morning

the
outraged consumer had already waded in to the Internet with a story of

woe.
That was the last we heard from the consumer.
Could it be that when managment got its hands on the situation things got
straightened out pretty quickly?


No.... there was more time passed than that........ read the story again.
And she *was* heard from again - to say that Bayliner had settled the matter
to her satisfaction - finally. IMHO it was the printing of the story and
the ****storm it ws starting to cause, that got the factory reps off their
asses to resolve the matter. I'm not sure if they got a lawer either - I
seem to think they did.

-W





Clams Canino October 14th 03 07:57 PM

new boat buying process
 

Factories are making as many mistakes as there are human beings to err. LOL
There will always be mistakes that slip past the QC guys. Such is life.

Buying early in the season helps, what helps more is doing what I told you
to do and bind the dealer to promise to fix any "teething problems" like
lives depended on it.

-W

"David Ditch" wrote in message
...
I guess thats a good reason to buy early in the season :)
Are factories still making these kinds of mistakes?

David




Clams Canino October 14th 03 08:53 PM

new boat buying process
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
IIRC, this whole incident happened on a weekend, and before Monday morning

the
outraged consumer had already waded in to the Internet with a story of

woe.
That was the last we heard from the consumer.
Could it be that when managment got its hands on the situation things got
straightened out pretty quickly?


No.... there was more time passed than that........ read the story again.
And she *was* heard from again - to say that Bayliner had settled the matter
to her satisfaction - finally. IMHO it was the printing of the story and
the ****storm it ws starting to cause, that got the factory reps off their
asses to resolve the matter. I'm not sure if they got a lawer either - I
seem to think they did.

-W





Larry October 15th 03 05:53 PM

new boat buying process
 
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:46:42 -0400, Bob D. wrote:

In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

No, this represents yet one more disaster concerning Bayliner. I have yet
to read any post extolling their virtues. Maybe that says something.


It says you don't know where to look.



Don't waste your breath, Gould. It's more likely that he doesn't want to
hear any positive Bayliner anectdotes. After all, doing so would be to
risk modifying his opinion which would indicate that he is not
infallible. Something that a few people in this group have a problem
accepting.


Bob, I have no idea where you came up with that bull****. I have had NO
opinions on Bayliner pro or con. Nor do I care, frankly. All I've read has
been here.

As I've stated Bayliner may not be the first choice for many boaters, and
I will conceed that it may not even be a viable choice for some
applications (I still don't know this as fact but, will at least consider
it a reasonable possibility), but I have yet to see any evidence to
support this viewpoints such as Bayliners are "a piece of crap - both the
boat and the company"


Then apparently you haven't been reading the messages here, including the
one to which I responded.

Besides the human nature attributes you cited, add "People tend to stick
to their initial biases, despite new information" to that list.


You seem to be living proof. For me, if someone can show me otherwise, or,
for that matter, if someone expresses opinions to the contrary, I'll
listen, otherwise, it seems to me that you're the one with an axe to grind.
--

Larry


Bob D. October 15th 03 08:21 PM

new boat buying process
 
In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:46:42 -0400, Bob D. wrote:

In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

No, this represents yet one more disaster concerning Bayliner. I have yet
to read any post extolling their virtues. Maybe that says something.

It says you don't know where to look.



Don't waste your breath, Gould. It's more likely that he doesn't want to
hear any positive Bayliner anectdotes. After all, doing so would be to
risk modifying his opinion which would indicate that he is not
infallible. Something that a few people in this group have a problem
accepting.


Bob, I have no idea where you came up with that bull****. I have had NO
opinions on Bayliner pro or con. Nor do I care, frankly. All I've read has
been here.


I said it was LIKELY (not absolutely) you don't want to hear anything
positive. But, more and more, I'll stand by my statement.

There have been both pros and cons posted to this group, yet you cite only
the negative. If Gould was right, and you don't know where to look to make
a more informed statement, instead relying on ONE piece of anectodotal
evidence, fine. Then do yourself a favor, take his advice, and look into
it objectively, instead of being one more blow hard who decided to rudely
shoot his mouth off, then whining something akin to "what did I do to
deserve this?"


As I've stated Bayliner may not be the first choice for many boaters, and
I will conceed that it may not even be a viable choice for some
applications (I still don't know this as fact but, will at least consider
it a reasonable possibility), but I have yet to see any evidence to
support this viewpoints such as Bayliners are "a piece of crap - both the
boat and the company"


Then apparently you haven't been reading the messages here, including the
one to which I responded.


No Larry, apprently YOU haven't been reading the messages in this group.
If you had, you would know there are people who don't blindly bash
Bayliners (or other brands) and even people who actually enjoy them, as
Gould pointed out. So when you whine that you're just echoing what
everyone else said on this group, you are only echoing what a few people
said, and NOT necessarily the concensus of the group. Furthermore, you
make such a bold statement with ABOLUTELY NO FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE as you
had just pointed out.

Besides the human nature attributes you cited, add "People tend to stick
to their initial biases, despite new information" to that list.


You seem to be living proof. For me, if someone can show me otherwise, or,
for that matter, if someone expresses opinions to the contrary, I'll
listen, otherwise, it seems to me that you're the one with an axe to grind.
--


Yes Larry, you pull a statement completely out of your ass like Bayliner's
are "a piece of crap - both the boat and the company", based without ANY
personal experience, while I, who have OWNED AND ENJOYED multiple Bayliner
boats have considered what INFORMED PEOPLE have cited, and have come to
understand that it MAY not be a boaters first choice, and it MAY not be
suitable for all boating applications. Yeah Larry, out of those two
contrasting viewpoints, yours is the reasonable one.

Since your so willing to adjust your point of view based solely on
opinions, how come you didn't take Gould advice and look into BOC web site
or search google for other threads? And while I'll admit there may be
alot of posts bashing Bayliners, there are posts of people who rely upon
and enjoy the boats, meaning they can't all be the piece of crap as you
insinuate.

Just to be fair Larry, you are right. I do have an axe to grind, with
people who rudely shoot off their mouths, without facts, without
provocation, just to be a smart ass. The choice is yours: To behave in a
sensible manner as if you were talking to someone face to face, or rudely
and irrespronsibly repeat sentiments you know nothing about, because no
one knows who you are.

In that vein, in an effort to behave in a sensible manner (not that I'm
always capable), if I misunderstood what you meant by "a piece of crap -
both the boat and the company", please do accept my apologies.

Bob

Capt John January 7th 05 05:38 PM

Dave, the best advice you can get on a new boat, don't buy new.

Take a look at the used boats one or two years old. The drop in price
on most new boats is unbeleavable. And if you look around you will find
the boat you want, with low hours, electronic equipment already
installed, all the bugs worked out, and save a lot of money in the
process. I know lots of people who have been into boating for many
years, very few of them would ever consider buying a brand new boat.
And these people don't have money problems. They just hate taking that
big hit when it comes time to sell the boat, and that hit can be really
bad.


wgander January 7th 05 06:45 PM

....unless you like to buy your stuff new and take care of it. If, like me,
you keep things forever, resale value doesn't matter.

"Capt John" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave, the best advice you can get on a new boat, don't buy new.

Take a look at the used boats one or two years old. The drop in price
on most new boats is unbeleavable. And if you look around you will find
the boat you want, with low hours, electronic equipment already
installed, all the bugs worked out, and save a lot of money in the
process. I know lots of people who have been into boating for many
years, very few of them would ever consider buying a brand new boat.
And these people don't have money problems. They just hate taking that
big hit when it comes time to sell the boat, and that hit can be really
bad.




JimH January 7th 05 06:47 PM

You still take a bit hit financially if you compare the cost of a new boat
vs. an identical boat 1~2 years old.

I agree with what John said...buy used.

"wgander" wrote in message
news:gNADd.43134$8e5.10596@fed1read07...
...unless you like to buy your stuff new and take care of it. If, like me,
you keep things forever, resale value doesn't matter.

"Capt John" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave, the best advice you can get on a new boat, don't buy new.

Take a look at the used boats one or two years old. The drop in price
on most new boats is unbeleavable. And if you look around you will find
the boat you want, with low hours, electronic equipment already
installed, all the bugs worked out, and save a lot of money in the
process. I know lots of people who have been into boating for many
years, very few of them would ever consider buying a brand new boat.
And these people don't have money problems. They just hate taking that
big hit when it comes time to sell the boat, and that hit can be really
bad.







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