Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Although we have to be vigilant about terrorism, I sometimes wonder if
government and certain businesses are using the fear of terrorism as
an excuse to hide from the public. The following article about a
kayaker who "was observed videotaping a Northwestern U.S. company's
refinery" may mean the public will be barred from going anywhere near
oil refineries.

I personally think it's a huge leap to think that a kayaker
videotaping an oil refinery is a possible Al-Qaida terrorist (more
likely it'll come from domestic terrorists such as ELF, but you can't
get headlines talking about domestic terrorism). In the Pacific
Northwest, kayakers are often the stewards of the local waterways who
conduct "surveillance," i.e., observe, photograph and videotape oil
tankers and oil refineries to ensure that they aren't spilling oil and
other waste into the water. I now expect there will be new "security
restrictions" to keep kayakers and others away from surveillance of
oil refineries so that oil companies can conduct their business
outside of the eyes of the public. (Hey, isn't GW Bush an oil man?)

So be forewarned. . . if you are seen photographing or videotaping
an oil refinery, an oil tanker, a bald eagle near an oil refinery, an
oil spill, etc., you too could be considered a potential Al-Qaida
terrorist.
--------------------------------------------------

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
Thursday, July 1, 2004 · Last updated 2:58 p.m. PT

Govt: May have been terrorist interest in state refinery
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

TACOMA, Wash. -- The Department of Homeland Security says one of the
state's five oil refineries may have come under surveillance by
terrorists, a newspaper reported Thursday.

While the suspicious activity could be part of preparation for an
attack, the agency said there was no specific information suggesting
energy facilities were being targeted.

Word on the possible surveillance was in a department bulletin sent to
industry, state and local law enforcement officials, The News Tribune
of Tacoma reported.

A person in a kayak "was observed videotaping a Northwestern U.S.
company's refinery," it said. The company's security staff also
reported a "suspicious encounter" with a diver last year in the same
general area.

The bulletin noted that a key ring containing about 50 keys was stolen
from a field truck owned by a company with a Northwest refinery. The
keys represent "potential access" to the company's U.S. facilities,
the agency said, noting that locks at the local operation were being
changed.

"Suspicious incident reports concerning possible surveillance of oil
and gas refineries and infrastructure continue to emerge from
throughout the homeland and may, in some cases, be indicative of
terrorist pre-operational activities," the department said.

Al-Qaida considers such facilities "attractive options because of
their potentially significant economic, public health and safety, and
psychological impacts," it said.

The state has received no information about specific threats to
refineries, said Joe Huden, a special assistant to Maj. Gen. Timothy
Lowenberg, Gov. Gary Locke's homeland security adviser.

"This is all pretty standard stuff," Huden said.

A spokesman at BP's Cherry Point refinery, the state's largest, said
the company has reported no suspicious activity in the past three to
six months.

The state's other refineries are Shell and Tesoro operations in
Anacortes, a ConocoPhillips refinery in Ferndale and a U.S. Oil
refinery in Tacoma.

The Homeland Security bulletin noted there have been a series of
terrorist attacks on energy-related targets overseas, particularly in
the Persian Gulf.

---

Information from: The News Tribune, http://www.tribnet.com

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

It amazes me how quickly we forget.

Here someone did a good job of being vigilant and watching for unusual actions
(not many kayakers carry video cameras in their boats) and we are jumping to
the conclusion the evil government in a conspiracy with big business will use
this as an excuse to hide illegal activity. Talk about a huge leap!

We know Al-Qaida does extensive surveillance of it's targets, why would it be
such a leap they would do it this time, other than there is poor cover for
action videotaping from a kayak.

Of course, if a terrorist (domestic or international) were to blow up the
refinery and spill millions of gallons of oil, I'm sure we would have a "9-11"
commission to ask why we didn't see it coming.

I personally think it's a huge leap to think that a kayaker
videotaping an oil refinery is a possible Al-Qaida terrorist (more
likely it'll come from domestic terrorists such as ELF, but you can't
get headlines talking about domestic terrorism).

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Bobo ) writes:

The Homeland Security bulletin noted there have been a series of
terrorist attacks on energy-related targets overseas, particularly in
the Persian Gulf.

Arab media is full of reports of Persian Gulf energy-related targets being
videotaped by kayakers, particulary Iraqi pipelines. Guess which North
American kayak manufacturer is suppliing the petro-terrorists with kayaks.
Guess which paddling newsgroup terrorists read for kayak expertise.
Guess which paddling newsgroup confuses kayak terroists reducing their
effectiveness. Guess how many kayak terrorists are US-trained certified
paddling instructors. Should USA so-called paddling experts be allowed to
continue training petro-terrorists? What is Homeland Security going to do
about US-based paddling instruction?


--
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Kayakers as Terrorists
 

....stuff deleted
So be forewarned. . . if you are seen photographing or videotaping
an oil refinery, an oil tanker, a bald eagle near an oil refinery, an
oil spill, etc., you too could be considered a potential Al-Qaida
terrorist.

....stuff deleted

I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the interesting
poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
certainly have to question his/her sanity.

Rick

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

"Rick" wrote in message
nk.net...
...stuff deleted
So be forewarned. . . if you are seen photographing or videotaping
an oil refinery, an oil tanker, a bald eagle near an oil refinery, an
oil spill, etc., you too could be considered a potential Al-Qaida
terrorist.

...stuff deleted

I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the
interesting
poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
certainly have to question his/her sanity.

Rick


Ever since 9/11 people seem to have forgotten that not all terrorists are
Arabic or part of Al-Qaida. There are still environmental nuts that like to
blow things up, burn things down, or chain themselves to bull dozers. And,
their Americans. Gasp.

J
Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:57:05 GMT, "Rick"
wrote:

...stuff deleted
So be forewarned. . . if you are seen photographing or videotaping
an oil refinery, an oil tanker, a bald eagle near an oil refinery, an
oil spill, etc., you too could be considered a potential Al-Qaida
terrorist.

...stuff deleted

I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the
interesting
poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
certainly have to question his/her sanity.


Here in the NW several organizations run pollution patrols from kayaks
to document pollution incidents, etc.

I will note that when I go paddling on Puget sound (particularly in
the first year after 9-11) I am frequently checked out by fast running
coast guard boats.

I guess they have to be vigilant.

And that is what we should all be wether keeping one eye open for suspicious
activity that might be connected to terrorism or keeping an eye on big
industry that might be taking shortcuts when it comes to the health and
safety of the environment. But restricting access to otherwise public
areas, as the OP suggested this paranoia might lead to, is not the answer.

DV

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

....stuff deleted
I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the interesting

poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
certainly have to question his/her sanity.

Rick



Ever since 9/11 people seem to have forgotten that not all terrorists are
Arabic or part of Al-Qaida. There are still environmental nuts that like to
blow things up, burn things down, or chain themselves to bull dozers. And,
their Americans. Gasp.


Josh, et. al.,

You still have to question the motives of someone who is in one of the
world's most impressive natural settings and chooses to photograph the
nearby oil refinery. I think that this is the rare instance that I would
raise my eyebrows in a questioning look. The response, and inspection,
of the person, in this instance, isn't out-of-line. It is likely that
the motives were, as you point out, perfectly explainable (though being
a conservationist in this day and age is likely to get you labeled as a
terrorist, or worse (after all, this is the label Bush used to describe
the NEA).

Now, if the person were taking photos of a returning fishing boat, I'd
probably be clapping my hands with glee.

Rick

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

in article , Rick at wrote on
7/2/04 9:05 PM:

...stuff deleted
I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the interesting

poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
certainly have to question his/her sanity.

Rick



Ever since 9/11 people seem to have forgotten that not all terrorists are
Arabic or part of Al-Qaida. There are still environmental nuts that like to
blow things up, burn things down, or chain themselves to bull dozers. And,
their Americans. Gasp.


Josh, et. al.,

You still have to question the motives of someone who is in one of the
world's most impressive natural settings and chooses to photograph the
nearby oil refinery.

OK.

I think that this is the rare instance that I would
raise my eyebrows in a questioning look. The response, and inspection,
of the person, in this instance, isn't out-of-line.

Right.

It is likely that
the motives were, as you point out, perfectly explainable (though being
a conservationist in this day and age is likely to get you labeled as a
terrorist, or worse (after all, this is the label Bush used to describe
the NEA).

I think what the OP who posted the article was concerned about was that
rather than continue to be diligent, officials would take the lazy approach
and just ban people from accessing the area in kayaks altogether. I'm not
really sure what we can do to prevent such decisions, but it is a concern.

Now, if the person were taking photos of a returning fishing boat, I'd
probably be clapping my hands with glee.

OK.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Rick wrote in a message dated 7/2/2004 10:05 PM Eastern
Daylight Time

snip
It is likely that
the motives were, as you point out, perfectly explainable (though being
a conservationist in this day and age is likely to get you labeled as a
terrorist, or worse (after all, this is the label Bush used to describe
the NEA).

Far be it for me to defend President Bush's policies and the "antiterrorist"
actions taken by our government. I am after all one of the "hysterical"
librarians (Per Ashcroft) opposed to the "USA PATRIOT" act. I am also an NEA
member and for the sake of fairness and accuracy, I should point out that it
was Education Secretary Rod Paige who characterized the National Education
Association as "a terrorist organization" last February. Bush has not (as far
as I know) spoken on the topic yet.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

I have to ask, is this supposed to be
"the land of the free
and the home of the brave"
or the land of the timid living
in fear of people with cameras?

--
Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

One of our local runs was closed immediately after 9-11. It is a 4 mile class 2
run about an hour west of washington dc - the put in is below a dam on goose
creek. the water above the dam is the reservoir for drinking water for fairfax
county (just outside dc)...the fear was terrorists putting chemicals in the
water. Of course chemicals could be dropped in at the bridge just 5 miles
upstream of the dam....oh well...

the run can actually still be made - but a 1 mile carry is necessary as the
access road has been gated... seemd to me having a bunch of kayakers and
fisherman would be a good thing - now you have a virtually empty area....

i've moved from that area - but that was such a great little novice run & a fun
play run at some levels....Seth actually did some of his training for the Worlds
at the hole at the "golf Course rapid"....we had to paddle up from the take out
- okay for me in a kayak - but rough for him as a C-boater at the right
levels....

sheila

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Yeah, I was wondering about how the law prohibiting photographing
industrial installations is worded.

And about just who is qualified to judge the appropriateness of the
photographer's subject. Seems to me there could be some "art" in a
smoking industrial complex set against a background of nature.

Guess we'll just have to ask John A.

Seems like a lot of cosmetic frenzy with "protecting the public" while
the larger (more difficult) problems go unaddressed.




On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:00:16 -0400, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:

I have to ask, is this supposed to be
"the land of the free
and the home of the brave"
or the land of the timid living
in fear of people with cameras?

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

In another forum I read there was an article recently posted about kayaks
being used in that area for transporting "BC Bud" into the U.S.

Why would you transport Budweiser into the U.S. Seems like we should be
putting more effort into getting rid of it....

--Chris

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Chris Webster ) writes:
In another forum I read there was an article recently posted about kayaks
being used in that area for transporting "BC Bud" into the U.S.

Why would you transport Budweiser into the U.S. Seems like we should be
putting more effort into getting rid of it....

plant buds, not the brand name

so, okay, kayaks can be used for evil, that's terroism, not transporting
plant buds, as well as, um, nonsense and wasting time. if only kayaks had
some useful purpose by which they could be justified and defended. okay,
tourism, but tourism itself is nonsense and wasting time, a nonsense way
of redistributing income, like a government social program. the only
counter argument a politican might go for is restricting kayaks takes
money out of remote economically depressed regions of the country.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

"Rick" writes:
I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the interesting
poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
certainly have to question his/her sanity.

Perhaps the person in the boat had concerns about environment pollution,
etc... coming from the oil refinery and wanted video evidence? If they
can put *us* under surveillance, then we can do likewise.


--
Claudia Engel (no emails please)
aka: Engelchen

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Claudia Engel wrote:

Just my $0.02: pretty much anything can be construed as terrorism.
Photographers have been harassed regularly for photographing near
certain sites, including trains (a popular hobby, it appears). In
general, for those of you who are also unfortunate enough to live here,
this is the United States, and the number one rule for survival in the
US is to assume *everything* is illegal unless proven otherwise.

The US is run by a bunch of paranoid fruitcakes bent on world domination,
and John Ashcroft & Co. see terrorists in every shadow. In fact, it
seems they're more interested in keeping dissenters silent. Everyone
who has a contrary opinion and everyone who has the nerve to engage in
an activity which is out of the ordinary is immediately assumed to be
a "terrorist".

Anyway, I could go on for days. Like I said, just assume everything is
illegal - it probably is. And after you get harassed, you'll have to
prove your innocence. Welcome to America.

Sounds to me like one of the most important means to really be free is
slowly taken out of the hands of the people: the right to control your
government.

I sure hope that the U.S. voters use their right to vote away Bush and
his cronies before the current administration manages to take even more
freedom away from the people. :-(

As for leaving the U.S. when you strongly disagree with the government,
that gives the administration exactly what they want: people who think
for themselves and who oppose them leave, the mindless masses stay.
Please try to turn the tides during the elections before really giving
up... (Yes I know, the last elections weren't something to instill
confidence in the election process.)

Good luck over there!

--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

" Although we have to be vigilant about terrorism, I sometimes wonder if
government and certain businesses are using the fear of terrorism as
an excuse to hide from the public.


Or to take more of the public's money, and keep the public out of public
areas, as was attempted here in Connecticut 2 years ago.

A certain state legislator, who represents a district that includes an
ultra-welathy enclave of people who live on a group of islands just
offshore, decided that "Homeland Security" would be a wonderful excuse for
punishing kayakers for the crime of paddling in and among those islands (It
just happens to be the most scenic paddling spot in the state if you're a
sea kayaker).

Whar he proposed was registration of the kayaks, so that island residents
could harass them by reporting their registration numbers to authorities for
made-up offenses. We already have a problem here with law enforcement being
used as muscle by the wealthy to break the law and dominate lands and waters
held in public trust. This was just one more instance of it.

What was not counted upon was the mobilization of paddlers and outdoors
groups. A large group of us attended and essentially took over two
legislative public hearings, and won over many of the legislators with our
case. The letter-writing campaign that followed was bigger than the one that
followed the disclosure of the Enron scandal (Our state gov't illegally
loaned them $200 Million, and it appears our recently resigned governor was
a part of that deal, as well as a few others that may land him in federal
prison soon) according to one senior senator I spoke with after the fact.
Two years later, we're still getting press in the media about it.

The excuse was kayaks and canoes full of explosives targeting mansions on
the shore. The reality was that the state wanted registration & property tax
$$$ on paddlecraft, and a way to keep us out of places the rich didn't want
us to go.

Be very wary of any attempt to limit your personal freedoms --- the real
reason is usually something far more sinister than the excuse.

AND VOTE THIS NOVEMBER

Wayne

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Rick wrote:
: ...stuff deleted
: So be forewarned. . . if you are seen photographing or videotaping
: an oil refinery, an oil tanker, a bald eagle near an oil refinery, an
: oil spill, etc., you too could be considered a potential Al-Qaida
: terrorist.

: ...stuff deleted

: I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
: videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
: refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the interesting
: poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
: certainly have to question his/her sanity.

Well, I have actually videotaped a refinery once... varies what camera I
take with me and if I'm in a Sit-On-Top kayak, I usually grab my camcorder
with the scuba enclosure since it's gonna get wet anyway most likely...

Course, I also videotape birds, slurry coming out of pipes and such too, and
generally, officials will react when you call them about something that you
have on video, even without seeing the video...

I have a EWA-Marine enclosure... it only is good for 30 feet underwater but
I told the salesman, "If I'm 30 feet underwater I've got more to worry about
than my camcorder." (he wanted me to buy a more expensive enclosure...)

I wonder if bad guys use spoonsoonies for their personal safety???

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Galen Hekhuis wrote:
I have to ask, is this supposed to be
"the land of the free
and the home of the brave"
or the land of the timid living
in fear of people with cameras?

--
Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

Or, to quote Ben Franklin:

"Those who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little security,
deserve neither freedom nor security." (Having checked this quote, I
find it has many permutations, though all are attributed to Franklin).

My take is, like that of others, that the "homeland security act" reeks
more of facism than democracy. I believe Franklin and other founders of
this nation would agree.

Rick

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Claudia Engel wrote:

"Rick" writes:

I don't know about you, but considering how many wonderful things one can
videotape from a kayak, including whales, natural settings, etc., an oil
refinery is right down on the bottom of my list, just above the interesting
poop I took this morning. While I doubt the individual was a terrorist, I
certainly have to question his/her sanity.


Perhaps the person in the boat had concerns about environment pollution,
etc... coming from the oil refinery and wanted video evidence? If they
can put *us* under surveillance, then we can do likewise.



Works for me. Frankly, I see no harm in asking why someone is filming
anything. I would, like anyone else, listen to a reasonable explanation
(such as that forwarded above) and accept it. When nobody asks why
individuals behave in fashions we tend to deem suspicious, we foist off
the responsibility for our own security to those who have neither the
time, resources, and (probably) intellect, to do this successfully.
Hence, putting air marshalls on planes, IMO, does nothing to improve
security, and it increases risk (discharging bullets on aircraft is a
dubious proposition, at best - I, and 150+ other families lost a dear
friend due to the discharge of a single round on a 727 several years ago).

I, for one, also have serious concerns about pollution. I've gone on
some baykeeper paddles (though I've not been called as a witness), for
example, where we documented events we've seen in relation to civic
discharges of wastewater. Kayakers can provide a valuable service in
this arena since they are (generally) able to get to places that others
cannot.

Rick

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

....stuff deleted

Well, I have actually videotaped a refinery once... varies what camera I
take with me and if I'm in a Sit-On-Top kayak, I usually grab my camcorder
with the scuba enclosure since it's gonna get wet anyway most likely...


I'm a bit jaundiced. I live within a few miles of several refineries on
the Carquenez Straits in the SF Bay Area. You can sit and watch
refineries for hours from here and learn all there is you need to know.
Putting this on tape, excpect for the purpose of documenting pollution
in court, seems beneath mundane to me.

Interestingly, cities near here are now banning the sale of .50 calibre
(I guess I read too many British authors to be certain of the spelling
of that word anymore) rifles because they could potentially be used in
terrorist attacks on refineries. Of course, nobody has studied whether
they are actually more effective for this purpose than, say, any other
weapon or armor penetrating round. We are, in our silly fears, giving up
that which made this country work well for so many years.

I've actually had someone praise Bush and say that there have been no
significant terrorist attacks in the US since 9/11. I laughed and asked
how many there were before. I didn't get an answer.

Course, I also videotape birds, slurry coming out of pipes and such too, and
generally, officials will react when you call them about something that you
have on video, even without seeing the video...

I have a EWA-Marine enclosure... it only is good for 30 feet underwater but
I told the salesman, "If I'm 30 feet underwater I've got more to worry about
than my camcorder." (he wanted me to buy a more expensive enclosure...)

I wonder if bad guys use spoonsoonies for their personal safety???


Now that would be suspicious. If a kayaker is seen with sponsons, the
correct response is to call in the authorities immediately. The coast
guard may well get to use their small canons for once.

Rick

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Josh wrote:

Ever since 9/11 people seem to have forgotten that not all terrorists are
Arabic or part of Al-Qaida. There are still environmental nuts that like to
blow things up, burn things down, or chain themselves to bull dozers. And,
their Americans. Gasp.

[ Shouldn't that be "they're Americans. Gasp." ]

What "environmental nuts" do you know about who have blown things up
or burned things down? I haven't heard of that.

Maybe you're thinking of Boy Scouts, who have been known to burn down
entire forests. Are you saying Boy Scouts are all terrorists?

Sitting in a tree, trying to prevent it from being cut down, does not
seem like terrorism to me. Nobody is harmed except lumber company
executives who get lower profit by not harvesting so much cellulose.
But it's not like anybody is getting killed, as in the WTC.

Chaining yourself to a bull dozer, same deal. Some Earth First'ers
have reputedly put sugar in gas tanks, causing property damage, but
does that really constitute terrorism? Vandalism, sure. Tree spiking
was perhaps done a few times, but few incidents are documented.

Please define terrorist.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Hi Folks,

As the group's resident eco-wacko, I have a few comments about this.

1. ELF is real, and they do indeed do bad things. The number of real ELF
incidents, however, can be counted on one hand. No one has yet to be
injured due to an ELF action, but I still don't see where any of this bad
stuff gets us anywhere we want to go, and I do not condone it.

2. Lots of times, what we've seen here in Idaho, is a bulldozer will burn.
Locals will blame EF-ers. There will be NO political content associated
with the act- no notes, press releases, publicity, nothing. There are, of
course, no EF-ers in the area.

The owner then collects insurance. This happens quite a lot-- especially
when commodity markets go through their inevitable downturns.

Chuck

in article , Bill Tuthill at
wrote on 7/6/04 2:48 PM:

Some Earth First'ers
have reputedly put sugar in gas tanks, causing property damage, but
does that really constitute terrorism? Vandalism, sure.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Bill Tuthill

Typed in http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID:



What "environmental nuts" do you know about who have blown things up
or burned things down? I haven't heard of that.



Well, very recently ELF burned down one of the locations of Stock Building
Supply in New Mexico for using diesel forklifts that they felt were producing
too much pollutants.

Do a web search on ELF and you will find that they claim responsiblity for a
lot of acts of distruction.


SYOTR
Larry C.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Charles Pezeshki

typed in
Message-ID:
. ELF is real, and they do indeed do bad things. The number of real ELF
incidents, however, can be counted on one hand. No one has yet to be
injured due to an ELF action, but I still don't see where any of this bad
stuff gets us anywhere we want to go, and I do not condone it.

2. Lots of times, what we've seen here in Idaho, is a bulldozer will burn.
Locals will blame EF-ers. There will be NO political content associated
with the act- no notes, press releases, publicity, nothing. There are, of
course, no EF-ers in the area.

Chuck, these guys claim responsiblity for a lot of incidents, a lot more than
on one hand. We even got a call from the FBI after they burned the Stock
location in New Mexico, so they evidently think the are responsible and capable
of violent acts (I work for the same company).

When is the last time you cruised through their website (based out of Canada,
BTW)?

SYOTR
Larry C.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Larry Cable wrote:

Well, very recently ELF burned down one of the locations of Stock
Building Supply in New Mexico for using diesel forklifts that they felt
were producing too much pollutants.

This should be called political vandalism, not terrorism, because it's
not morally equivalent to e.g. a rush-hour train bombing in Madrid.
Terrorism has to kill people. That's my definition.

Do a web search on ELF and you will find that they claim responsiblity
for a lot of acts of distruction.

About a year ago, a GMC/Hummer dealership in SoCal was vandalized.
Some Hummers were burned, and "ELF" spray painted on the doors.
I told my mom is was probably a college prank. Indeed, when somebody
was later caught (using surveillance video) he turned out to be
a student at some nearby campus.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Bill Tuthill typed:

Josh wrote:

Ever since 9/11 people seem to have forgotten that not all terrorists are
Arabic or part of Al-Qaida. There are still environmental nuts that like to
blow things up, burn things down, or chain themselves to bull dozers. And,
their Americans. Gasp.

[ Shouldn't that be "they're Americans. Gasp." ]

[snip]


Thanks, Bill. I thought he was saying these creeps chain themselves
to bull dozers and their Americans. How many Americans does the the
typical bull dozer have, anyway? Do cow dozers own similar quantities
of Americans? Do these creeps also chain themselves to cow dozers
(and, presumably, their AMericans)?

Jus' wondrin'.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
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Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Bill Tuthill

Typed in Message-ID:

This should be called political vandalism, not terrorism, because it's
not morally equivalent to e.g. a rush-hour train bombing in Madrid.
Terrorism has to kill people. That's my definition.

It's a fine line between justifying the destruction of property and killing
people.
These acts of destruction have always had the potential to be deadly, so I
still have to
classify them as act of terror.

About a year ago, a GMC/Hummer dealership in SoCal was vandalized.
Some Hummers were burned, and "ELF" spray painted on the doors.
I told my mom is was probably a college prank. Indeed, when somebody
was later caught (using surveillance video) he turned out to be

a student at some nearby campus.


But was he a member of ELF? My guess is that most of the members of ELF, ALF
and EF are nice upper middle class college types. That's were most of the
radical element of my day (the 70's) came from too.

If the group calling itself ELF takes credit for the act, I'm willing to
believe them.


SYOTR
Larry C.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

Hi Larry,

Anyone can claim to be an ELF member, since it's a cell organization. Early
ELF actions (burning of the restaurant at Vail) had a clear environmental
objective (stopping invasion of endangered lynx habitat). The diesel fume
thing doesn't even pass anyone's laugh test, and is very strange indeed. It
sure doesn't fit in with the level of political sophistication of the early
stuff.

Ya know, it would be fun to argue this, but..

I'm packing for a MF Salmon trip. Gotta go!

Best,

Chuck

in article , Larry Cable at
ospam wrote on 7/6/04 6:18 PM:

Chuck, these guys claim responsiblity for a lot of incidents, a lot more than
on one hand.

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

In a previous article, Dave Manby said:
pictures of the building and they then took him down to the local
fotoshop and had the film developed (luckily he was at the end of his
film) and they cut out the offending negative and gave him back the rest
of the film.

Wow! 25 years ago a friend of mine lost all the pictures he'd taken of
the Vatican because after leaving he took a picture of two Italian
policemen in riot gear. They came over and stripped the film out of his
camera without so much as "sorry we have to do this".


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Why is there only one Monopolies and Mergers Commission?
-- JNP

Kayakers as Terrorists
 

kayakers as terrorized?

as if Mother Nature wasn't enough of a holy terror

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